🇺🇸 Episode 53 | Dennis Patrick — (Part 2 of 3) Free Speech • The Fairness Doctrine • The First Amendment
Chopping It Up with Keith Saarloos · Released July 03, 2026 · Santa Ynez Valley, California
About this conversation
(Part 2 of 3) 🇺🇸 Should the government have a role in deciding what you can hear?
📺 What was the Fairness Doctrine, and why did its repeal permanently change American broadcasting?
🎙️ And why does a decision made nearly 40 years ago still shape the debates we have every day?
In Part 2 of Keith Saarloos' conversation with former FCC Chairman Dennis Patrick, the discussion moves beyond telecommunications and into one of the most important—and controversial—questions in American history: Who controls speech?
Dennis explains what the Fairness Doctrine actually was, why the Federal Communications Commission believed it was unconstitutional, and how abolishing it became one of the most controversial decisions of his career.
Keith and Dennis explore the balance between free speech, government regulation, media ownership, competition, and the responsibilities that come with living in a free society. They also discuss how the explosion of cable television, new media, and thousands of new voices transformed America from a country with just a handful of television channels into the world of unlimited information we live in today.
Whether you agree with Dennis or not, this conversation provides a rare firsthand look at the decisions that continue to influence politics, journalism, media, and public debate decades later.
📡 The future of the FCC after the breakup of AT&T
📺 Why the Fairness Doctrine became so controversial
⚖️ The First Amendment and the role of government
🎙️ Can the government regulate speech?
📰 Why more voices create more freedom
📻 The explosion of cable television and broadcast media
🏛️ Congressional hearings and defending the Constitution
💬 Why free speech remains America's foundational freedom
🇺🇸 How decisions made in the 1980s continue to shape today's media landscape
This isn't just a conversation about broadcasting.
It's a conversation about the First Amendment, free speech, and why the marketplace of ideas matters just as much today as it did when the Constitution was written.
#ChoppingItUp #KeithSaarloos #DennisPatrick #FirstAmendment #FreeSpeech #FairnessDoctrine #FCC #RonaldReagan #Media #Broadcasting #Constitution #AmericanHistory #Podcast #KrazyCountry1059
🇺🇸 In this episode:
From Keith’s original Valley archive
The following material is preserved from the original episode post. Existing transcript text is an archive copy and may contain transcription errors.
Episode 52 | Dennis Patrick (2 of 3) - Former FCC Chairman • Ronald Reagan's White House • The Breakup of AT&T
History is often remembered through presidents, elections, and headlines.
But many of the decisions that permanently change the way we live are made by people whose names most Americans have never heard.
Dennis Patrick is one of those people.
In Episode 52 of Chopping It Up with Keith Saarloos, Keith sits down with Dennis Patrick, former Chairman of the Federal Communications Commission (FCC), former member of President Ronald Reagan's White House staff, communications policy leader, media executive, rancher, author of the novel Santa Ynez, and Santa Ynez Valley resident, for the first installment of an extraordinary three-part conversation exploring the people, policies, and decisions that helped build the modern communications age.
During the 1980s, Dennis Patrick served at the center of one of the most transformative periods in American history. After joining the Reagan Administration, he eventually became Chairman of the FCC, where he helped oversee the implementation of the historic breakup of AT&T, the end of the Ma Bell monopoly, the expansion of competition throughout the telecommunications industry, and communications policies that accelerated innovation across television, radio, cable, wireless communications, and the emerging digital economy.
Keith and Dennis begin by discussing Dennis Patrick's childhood in Southern California before tracing the unexpected journey that led him from private law practice to the White House. Dennis shares personal stories about working alongside President Ronald Reagan, serving inside the West Wing, attending Christmas celebrations at the White House, and participating in the process of identifying and recommending leaders who would shape federal agencies during one of America's most influential presidential administrations.
The conversation then explores one of the defining moments in the history of American telecommunications: the breakup of AT&T. Dennis Patrick explains why government and industry believed competition would produce greater innovation, how the telecommunications marketplace changed after the breakup of the Bell System, and why those decisions helped create the foundation for broadband internet, fiber-optic communications, mobile phones, smartphones, streaming services, podcasts, cloud computing, video conferencing, satellite communications, artificial intelligence, and the connected digital world billions of people rely on every day.
Throughout the episode, Keith and Dennis discuss constitutional government, entrepreneurship, free markets, communications policy, public service, leadership, technological innovation, and the unintended consequences of decisions whose full impact would not be understood for decades. Rather than studying history through textbooks, listeners hear directly from one of the people who helped shape it.
This episode also serves as the beginning of a three-part series. Episode 53 examines the Fairness Doctrine, the First Amendment, freedom of speech, and the evolution of American broadcasting, while Episode 54 explores the digital revolution, Time Warner, AOL, National Geographic, and how emerging technologies transformed communications from analog television to today's internet-driven world.
Whether you're interested in Dennis Patrick, Ronald Reagan, the Reagan Administration, the Federal Communications Commission (FCC), the breakup of AT&T, Ma Bell, American telecommunications history, communications law, broadcasting, cable television, wireless communications, digital technology, public policy, leadership, entrepreneurship, American history, or the remarkable people who have shaped both the Santa Ynez Valley and the United States, this episode provides a rare firsthand account from one of the architects of the modern communications era.
This is more than a conversation about government.
It is the story of how a series of decisions made during the 1980s continue to influence nearly every phone call, internet search, podcast, livestream, text message, video conference, streaming service, and digital connection in the world today.
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Who is Dennis Patrick?
Dennis Patrick is the former Chairman of the Federal Communications Commission (FCC), a former member of President Ronald Reagan's White House staff, media executive, author, rancher, and longtime Santa Ynez Valley resident. During his career, he helped oversee the breakup of AT&T, expanded competition in telecommunications, influenced broadcasting policy, and later served in executive leadership roles at Time Warner, AOL, and National Geographic before returning to California to build a working ranch in the Santa Ynez Valley.
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THE Transcript
Hey everybody, it is 10:00 AM on a Saturday morning, and that means you're listening to Chopping It Up on Crazy Country 105.9, one of the last truly independently, locally owned radio stations left in California, broadcasting live and local from the heart of the Santa Ynez Valley. And I am your host, Keith Saarloos of Saarloos and Sons Wine Company, located in Los Olivos, California.
Today's guest is a man whose resume reads less like a career and more like Forrest Gump tour through some of the most important moments in American history. Dennis Patrick has sat in rooms where decisions were made that changed the very way American communities communicate. He served as President Ronald Reagan's White House staff before becoming the chairman, the chairman of the FCC, where he oversaw the most important and consequential eras in the communications history, including the breakup of AT&T and major changes to broadcasting regulations that transformed TV, radio, and the emerging media landscape.
Then, because apparently that wasn't enough, he jumped into the private sector and helped lead some of the biggest media companies on Earth: Time Warner, AOL, National Geographic. He helped launch the cable networks, navigate the dawn of the internet age, and expand one of the most recognized media brands in the world.
And then, in a move that only makes sense after you've lived a life, he traded Washington, D.C. and Manhattan ballrooms for a ranch in the Santa Ynez Valley. Today, Dennis raise- raises cattle, drinks coffee, wrangles alpacas and camels, writes books, and somehow found time to write a novel called Santa Ynez, a story rooted right here in a valley we all love.
Now, I've interviewed winemakers, ranchers, politicians, mus- musicians, entrepreneurs, pastors, and a whole cast of local characters on this show, but I can honestly say this is the first time I've ever had the opportunity to sit down with a former chairman of the FCC. Today, we're gonna talk about Reagan, Washington, free speech, media, cable television, AOL, National Geographic, ranching, writing, the Santa Ynez Valley, and what happens to a man when he spends his lifetime shaping industries before he decides to build a life under an oak tree instead.
Dennis Patrick, welcome to Chopping It Up Mr. Patrick, thank you for joining us on Chopping It Up. How are you doing today?
I'm doing very well. Good to be here.
Okay. Where do we start? Where do we start?
Wherever you want.
Where'd you grow up?
I grew up in Los Angeles, California.
In the city of?
In the city of.
No kidding. Born, born in Eagle Rock, which was very much a blue-collar, sort of, uh- Yes ... working class community when I was there. My dad was a Los Angeles police officer.
Really? My, uh, my mother, um, ex- excuse me, my wife's grandfather built that house, that concrete house that's built into the side of the wall, in Eagle Rock.
Really?
Yes. At
it- I, I know, I know exactly where that is.
It's, it's a historical home. He was a, uh, engineer and worked with concrete and a bunch of other stuff, and bought a piece of property that was basically, they said you couldn't build on it, and, uh, decided to build on it. That's- He
did, he did it anyway.
He did it anyway.
That's good.
Okay. So Eagle Rock, you grew up son of a officer.
Son of a police officer, yeah. Went to, uh, went to school there and, uh... Well, we actually, we moved to Orange County after that. Grew up in Huntington Beach.
Oh, did you really?
Yeah, yeah. So Huntington Beach, and then- Were you an Oiler?
And then I, well, I, well, I was. Huntington Beach Oiler. Wow, not a, not a lot of people know that.
I'm a Long Beach kid. Okay.
Okay. Yeah, I was, I was an Oiler. And then for college I went back to LA. I went to Occidental College- Mm-hmm ... and then UCLA Law School.
Really? So, uh, you know, we kinda led with a bunch of different things that you've done in your life.
Uh, let's go to Reagan, our, our most famous resident. How did you, uh, get involved with the, uh, Reagan presidency?
It really goes back to, to law school. I, uh, clerked for a guy named William Clark, William P. Clark, uh, who- That sounds
familiar ...
well, it, it should. Uh, Bill Clark was, uh, cer- a resident of California, a cowboy, uh, and, uh, he was on the California Supreme Court for a period of time, had been appointed by, uh, Governor Reagan.
He'd been Reagan's, uh, involved in Reagan's, uh, first gubernatorial campaign. Uh, and, uh, after, uh, Governor Reagan was elected, Bill, uh, joined the staff and really was the guy that hired a bunch of persons that later became quite famous, and that I got to know in Washington, guys like Ed Meese, uh, Cap Weinberger, et cetera.
So getting back to my, my journey and how I ended up at the, at the White House, Bill, um, uh, was appointed by Reagan to the California Supreme Court, and while I was in law school, I had the opportunity to clerk for him. Uh, now this was in '76, uh, so a number of years went by between '76 and '80. The president was elected in '80.
He, uh, leaned on Bill to come back and become the deputy secretary of, uh, state. Hmm. Uh, which is a funny story in and of itself. Uh, the president didn't know Al Haig very well and really wanted a trusted hand, uh, at the number two spot. So he got Bill to come back, and Bill out of the blue called me and said, "Hey, you wanna go to the White House?"
Uh- Unbelievable.
How old were you?
Uh, well, this was, you know, 1981. I was just 30.
What was that phone call like?
Well, it was, uh, it was, uh, a little shocking. Uh, I remembered, uh, uh, uh, that... I, I remember now that, uh, when I got that phone call, I'd been out partying the night before. So I wasn't in tip-top shape to be receiving that phone call, which was a little awkward.
But, uh, he asked whether, uh, I wanted to go back and join the White House staff. Bill wanted, uh, wanted some people that he knew- Mm-hmm ... uh, some Californians to be, uh, uh, at the White House, uh, with, as he always referred to the president, The Governor. Mm-hmm. He always t- n- he never heard him, uh, refer to him other than as The Governor, uh, or The Boss.
Yeah. Uh, so he wanted to have some people that he knew and trusted at the White House, and I was lucky enough to, uh, get that, uh, opportunity. I was practicing law in downtown LA at the time, and I was, uh, a tad bored, so I took a flyer.
Wow. So did we skip over anything between Huntington Beach and, and getting that phone call that we should touch on?
Uh, well, I was an astronaut for a while during that per- What? No, I just yeah.
Oh, come on.
Oh. I just
made that up. You, you had me on the ropes. You got me there. Yeah. I was like, "Oh my gosh, this is amazing." No, I, I
made that up. I, no, uh, uh-
By the way, I think you should do that every time. Yeah. That's fantastic.
Yeah. So- No, it was, uh, law school, practicing law, get the call. Uh, I had, uh, you know, I was d- had, had a, a good, uh, career potentially, you know, laid out, uh, in, in the practice of laws- Yeah ... with, uh, with a good firm. And so it was, in retrospect, it seems like a very easy decision. Well, you know, gee, who wouldn't go to the White House?
But at the time, you know, I was focused on the practice of law, and it was, it was going well at this firm. And, you know, I was really taking a flyer, uh, because the position I took at the White House was not a legal position. I wasn't hired as a lawyer.
Mm-hmm. So you pack your bags. You, you head east.
Uh- I headed east, yes.
You headed east. My daughter is currently working, uh, in Washington, DC this summer, and we're about to go see her for the sesquicentennial of our country. So 50 years later, uh, my daughter's, uh, walking on the same ground you
were. Yeah. Well, and it's an, it's, it's an exciting, obviously- Yeah ... tran- transition to make.
I, I remember that, uh, when, when I, I, I arrived in November of the first year of, uh, the president's two terms. Mm. Of course, he was president between 1981 and, and, uh, uh, 1989. Uh, and, uh, I remember arriving in November, and I had nothing but summer suits- Mm ... that I had worn in Los Angeles. Mm-hmm. And, uh, I, it was shockingly cold.
So tell us a little bit more about that presidency and, and you walking in those halls.
People ask me, um, uh what Reagan was like, I, I had the good fortune of, of getting to know the president, uh, Keith, and I, I, I say- when I say that, people think, "Well, gee, of course, you know, you were on the White House staff, you knew the president," but that's not really- Yeah
that doesn't- You can
work at the company, you don't
know the boss. E- exactly. Yeah. I mean, it, it doesn't necessarily follow that you're gonna know, uh, the, the president. But, um, I, I was friends with the Wick family, and the Wick family were personal friends of the president. Mm-hmm. So when the president, when, uh, the president and Nancy wanted to get together with old friends and put politics aside, the Wicks were usually there, and if the Wicks were there, I was there.
Wow. So I did, I did get to know the president, and that's a long way of answering your question, uh, or answering this, this issue of what Reagan was really like. I always say that Reagan was exactly like you would expect him to be. Mm-hmm. Uh, exactly how you would expect him to be based upon the way he appeared in public.
I- He wasn't any different in private than he was in public. Now, what do I mean by that? He was affable. Uh, he never had a bad word to speak, uh, of anyone, uh, even his opponents. Um, and he clearly held his, his view of the world, uh, in a, in a strong and, and, uh, uh, uh, well-developed w- way. But he, uh, wouldn't, uh, wouldn't really badmouth anybody.
He'd say, "Well, you know, we'll, uh, we'll, we'll lead them to the light." "You know, we'll t- we'll, we'll change their view." "We'll just get them to come around. Tip's not a bad guy." You know? So never, so the first thing, never heard him badmouth anybody. S- hell of a nice guy, always had a joke. You know, he had that sort of, uh, Irish, uh, storytelling-
Yeah
uh, quality. Uh, and I spent, you know, uh, a number of, uh, uh, holidays with him, Christmas, uh, 4th of July, and, uh, great guy. But in addition to that, a very, very thoughtful guy. I mean, he was very, very focused on policy. He had a very clear sense of, uh, what he wanted to do and what he wanted to accomplish with his, his presidency, and he stayed, he stayed locked on.
Mm-hmm. So, uh, he was, uh, he was a very interesting guy. Uh, being in the White House, I mean, you know, here I am, this kid from LA, you know, as you say, a Huntington Beach Oiler- Yeah ... uh, as it were.
I know
it. You know, where, you know, I- You're a
long way from home.
Oh, I was a long way from home. I, uh, uh, you know, I, I reflected, uh, at the time that, uh, many of my, uh, uh, new colleagues in the White House had gone to Ivy League schools and et cetera, and been to prep school, you know?
Yeah, you got a
little dirt on your neck.
Right, right. And so I, I, I re- uh, uh, uh, came from Huntington Beach High School, where, uh, we had a, uh, there was a bronze naked surfer- Yeah ... on the lawn of the, of the Huntington Beach High School. That's right. I mean, that was my high school, you know? That was a big
deal.
Yeah, so there. Uh, so- I
saw Dick Dale play in that f- in the, uh, Huntington Beach High School, uh-
Auditorium ...
auditorium. Yeah.
I think I, I, I, I, w- I, I, I did too. I must come back for that
Yeah, he d- I saw him on the reunion tour.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Uh, but i- so, you know, I, it was, it was definitely, uh, a, an interesting experience.
I mean, when you walk into the West Wing of, of the White House, you know, the- Had
you ever been there before?
I had been there, uh, I was involved in Republican politics when I was, uh, I think in high school, or it might have been a coup- first couple years of undergraduate college, and I'd gone back a couple of times.
Okay. And, but so I'd taken like a public tour- Sure ... sort of thing, but it's a little bit different when, uh- That's what
I, I was
just wondering ... you're, you're, you're waltzed into the residence, uh- Wow ... you know, uh, upstairs, uh, or as I say, working if your, your offices are in the West Wing, and, you know, you're 20 feet from the Oval Office.
It's, it's very, um, you know, it kind of is what you'd expect it to be. It's, it's exciting. You have a sense of, uh, of purpose. Mm-hmm. And, uh, you certainly are quite aware that there are things going on of great, great consequence. Um, what was fun about being in the Reagan administration is that, uh, I said the word, there, there was a sense of purpose.
Mm-hmm. Which is to say that the president made it very clear what the agenda was. Of course, this is, as you recall- Yeah ... uh, right after the Carter years, and there had been a certain, uh, certain number of problems, both economic problems and- Yep.
11% inflation.
Yeah, we had stagflation. Yep. And you had, uh, the humiliation of the United States with the Iranian hostage situation, which was resolved, as you recall, or any of the audience that remembers their history will recall, it was resolved actually on the day of the inauguration.
Mm-hmm. When the president was inaugurated, the hostages were finally released. But point is that w- we had had, as a country, we had, uh, suffered through some, some difficult times, and Reagan was, uh, was incredibly optimistic, incredibly positive, but it was more than that. He had an agenda that he believed would, uh, deliver us from that malaise, and I would argue that it did.
I've always heard, thought of the word resolute. I mean, there, I know that there is the Resolute Desk in the Oval Office, but from all of them, you know, I was a quite a young person at that time, and, and Ronald Reagan was my first president, and I always think it's very fitting that here we are in Santa Barbara County, and specifically the Santa Ynez Valley, and we get, we get to live in a place that he loved.
Yep.
And, uh, I've learned more and more, uh, through my time here about, you know, when he voted in Solvang, and ate, ate dinner in, uh, Ballard, and went to the movies in Buellton, and was a true resident of the Santa Ynez Valley. And, uh, one of my good friend's dad was his, uh, vet, you know, being Doug Herthiel.
Yeah. And every story I've heard, and, and you just confirm it a little bit more for me, about how there wasn't two different versions of the man. There was one. And we got, we all got to see it.
Yep. In public and private, same guy.
If you don't mi- mind me asking, you, you, you might be the only person I've ever met that, that's been in the residence part of the White House.
Um, could you tell us what that, that's a little bit like?
Well, it's not exactly like I was touring the, the, the, uh- No, I assume. You weren't laying in the beds ... you know, each of the, each of the, uh... Yeah, I would go, and, "Well, let's, let's go bounce on Ron's bed." You know, I, I resisted that. But, uh, uh, you know, it's, it, it, it's beautiful.
And, and, and, uh, you know, it's, uh, uh, w- we were mostly in the, the, obviously the, the entertainment, uh, quarters, the living room, if you will, and the dining room. Mm-hmm. I, I remember, I will tell you one story. When the first time I was invited to, uh, the, the residence, it was Christmas dinner. And, uh, um- No
big deal
so, uh, the, the president's, uh, needless to say, at the head of the table. And, um, I remember George Will was there, and the, the Wicks were there, and, and, uh, and, uh, well, I, I was there, and, uh- Yeah, you didn't have
anywhere to go,
I guess ... I'm about 32 years old, right? Right. And I sit down, and needless to say, I'm thinking, "This is..."
I mean, I was on the White House staff, but that's a little different than being in the residence- Yeah ... having Christmas dinner with, dinner with the president. And, uh, uh, so we sit down, uh, for dinner, and the president tur- This is, you know, well, p- p- it was mildly horrific, actually. The president turns to me and says, "Well, Dennis, would you, would you ask the blessing?"
You're kidding. Yeah. You're kidding. They didn't know. And I thought- You're
kidding ...
I thought, "Oh my golly, w- how, what exactly, uh, does one say or ask for when, you know, the leader of the free world..." Yeah. And r- remember, this is the early '80s. Well, you're talking to the- So we're still in the thick of it- Yes
with, uh, with the then Soviet Union.
You're sitting with number two talking to number one.
Yeah, it's, yeah. It is, uh, yeah, exactly. Uh, uh, so that was, that was a little bit of pressure. I'm, I'm sure it was, uh... Well, he didn't throw me out, so it must've been adequate.
Well, good job. So from your time there, tell us about your progression.
I mean, I mentioned that you were president of the FCC. Uh, tell us the next steps.
I, uh, worked in, on the White House staff for about two years. I, I sh- I should say, since we made reference to it, uh, that what I was doing, I was, uh, associate director of presidential personnel. So our-- the job of the personnel, uh, shop in the White House is to interview candidates for presidential appointments.
So- Really? Okay ... if someone is going, if someone is going to be appointed, um, you know, assistant secretary of defense, uh, or assistant secretary of state, or secretary of state for that matter- Really ... anything that required a Senate confirmation and a direct nomination by the president obviously is, uh, a person that's going to be vetted and, uh, uh, FBI background check and, and then one has to vet the, the, the politics of getting this, this person confirmed.
So all of that is brokered by, uh, the personnel shop. So I was associate director of president per-personnel when-- had a number of agencies, including the Department of Justice, uh, within my, my purview. So our job was to interview people and make recommendations, uh, to the president. So I did that for a couple of years
I
had- What a, what a trusted position.
It was a, it was a significant position. I mean, clearly the president is, is not necessarily going to have candidates for all of the... I mean, there are hundreds of positions. Yeah. That even at the, even at the top level, these, these positions that require Senate confirmation, there's still many, many, many of those positions.
So the president obviously doesn't have the time to- Sure ... to vet five candidates for that position, and then, and then make a judgment. So that was really our... It was our job to make those recommendations. Obviously, at the end of the day, it was the president's, the president's call. Uh, but so that's what we did, and it was, uh, it was an interesting job.
But what I was gonna say is, in getting back to answer your question, I had all the independent regulatory... I had the Department of Justice. I also had all the independent regulatory agencies in my jurisdiction, so that's the SEC, the ICC, the Federal Communications Commission, all the independent agencies, uh, as well as, as DOJ.
And at that time there was... This is, uh, the early '80s. Uh, there was a lot of change, uh, on the cusp in the telecommunications and broadcasting, uh, industry. Mm-hmm. So I followed with some interest one of my agencies, which was the FCC, uh, with
this- At that time, there was probably what, three, four channels maybe.
Yeah.
You know, not very much. Yeah, yeah. There's no cable television. There's no satellite television. Yeah. There's no podcasting. There was TV.
And it was analog.
And analog, yes.
And, and, and therein lies really the, uh, the key to, uh, the revolution that, that, that we've enjoyed in, in communications. The, the, the transition from, uh, analog to digital is what made streaming possible- Yeah
uh, made the proliferation of channel, uh, capacity possible, uh, uh, created the possibility of the integration of voice, video, and data- Yeah ... which is another revolution. None of that existed. This is in the early '80s when I was at the White House, and then when I went to- Yeah ... the commission, which was at the very end of 19, uh, 83, uh, and, uh, assumed my position really the beginning of '84.
Stayed on for a couple years, and then the president, uh, uh, apparently he remembered my, my, uh, my, my blessing from Christmas, because he ended up appointing me chairman of the FCC. So, uh, uh, I'm kidding. It probably wasn't my, uh, my prayer at Christmas. But I served as commissioner for, uh, a few years and then was appointed, uh, chairman in, in 1987.
But getting back to the more important story- Yeah ... uh, uh, the, the, the, the changes in telecom that were going on were phenomenal. So you had the transition from analog to digital. Uh, you had the optimization of satellite capacity and the use, uh, of satellite capacity for the distribution of, of broadcast signals, which hadn't been done.
Yeah. Uh, HBO, I think, was the, the, the first to do that. Um, cable at the time was, uh, uh, a- an antenna service. I mean, cable, as you, you probably know, uh, was, uh, a technology that was intended to ex- effectively extend the antenna of a broadcast television community where they couldn't get over-the-air, uh- Run pipe
right to the
house
yeah, run pipe to the house as a way of taking the three networks that we had at the time- Mm-hmm ... uh, uh, uh, a- and, and, and getting those signals into homes where there was, uh, uh, interference that, that, that would preclude that. But then someone had the bright idea, "Well, wait a second. Why do we just have to retransmit the three over-the-air broadcast networks that we have?
Why can't we create new, new, uh, channel capa- or new channels, new programming?" And that, that was a bit of a revolution. But-
I think you're underselling how big of a revolution that is, because one of the aspects that I was just thinking about as you were saying that, um, like, currently, we could talk about it later, I always think, like, SpaceX is very im- important.
I see those rockets go off, and I watch them all the time. And one of the things that I have seen from just that, uh- transfer or the, that transformative system is, uh, there were so many people that were still on AOL dial-up up until just a few years ago that are living in rural, uh, places in this country where their only way to get the internet was either a very, very slow satellite system or, uh, AOL dial-up.
And now y- anybody in the continental United States can go buy a Starlink and put it on top of their house- Yep ... and they have high-speed internet access, and they're up to speed with every single person that lives in a city.
Right. Right. And, and-
I didn't mean to derail you, but as you were- No ... saying that, one of the things that it was just popping into my mind is when you, when you entered that, uh, it, that working at the White House, if no one had an email address.
No.
Right? No, no. And by the time you're leaving, uh, that's definitely transforming.
Right. It's transforming towards ... Cer- certainly by the time I was leaving the commission in, in 1989 at the end of, uh, the Reagan administration. But no, you make a really good point. I was lucky enough to be there, and lucky enough to be, uh, in particular on the FCC at a time of just seismic change.
And as you, as your example points out, there are changes that take place that are incremental- Sure ... and then there are other changes that profoundly change everything.
There are years nothing happens, and then there are days that decades happen.
Yeah, that decades happen. And, and I was, uh, uh, witness and arguably party to a couple of those, those changes, uh, that, that occurred,
uh, in, in- And trying to figure out how to navigate it, in all honesty
uh, trying to figure out, because th- those were uncharted, uh, territories. Wild West. So, so just as, uh, as one example When I was, uh, when I transitioned from the White House to the FCC as a commissioner, before I became chairman of the FCC, I was a commissioner for, uh, for some period of time before the, before I became chairman.
But in any case, uh, you go back to January of 1984. January of 1984 was when the divestiture of AT&T became effective. Hmm. Now, for our listeners out there that have no recollection of this, we used to have ... Just like we had three broadcast networks for television, and all of your programming decisions were made by three individuals in New York- Mm-hmm
that decided what you were gonna watch, which is, by the way, no longer the case. More on that later. Yes. In telephony, there was one company, and it was called AT&T, and it provided both long distance, and it owned all of the local, uh, uh, uh, telephone, uh, operators as well. It was Ma Bell. Uh, a judge named Judge Green, a federal, uh, district court judge, uh, who heard an antitrust case against AT&T, found that that was anti-competitive, uh, and violated the antitrust, or AT&T had violated the antitrust laws, and so, uh, decided that AT&T had to be broken up.
He did not decide what was to follow the breakup of AT&T. Hmm. And so that fell to the FCC to figure out. Um, that was a huge sort of systemic change in the provision of telecommunications. So we had a decision to make. Um, one, one footnote When I was appointed, uh, as I say, at the end of '83, I assumed my position at the commission in ear- early 1984.
It was literally, uh, a- at the, uh, at the, at the, the, the very start of... It was almost literally the day that AT&T was broken up and we had a, a new world order. And I remember someone, uh, saying, uh, or d- me saying. I said, "Well, you know, I was a, um, a business litigation lawyer. I mean, I'm really not all that well-versed, certainly in telephony- Yeah
uh, you know, in telecommunications." And the guy I was talking to, who was already at the commission, he says, "Well, it really doesn't matter because no one knows anything now because all of the rules just changed." Mm-hmm. And that was very much, very much the case. The reason I raise this is it kind of ties together a couple of points that we've already been, been talking about.
One huge change, seismic change, uh, in, in regulation that, that, uh, that ends up affecting real people. It ends up affecting all of us. But secondly, policy and politics and Ronald Reagan. When AT&T was broken up, the presumption was, and it certainly was the position of, of the telephone industry, the incumbent existing telephone industry, that AT&T would, uh, uh, continue to own and control long distance, and there would be separate companies that would control, as monopolies- Mm-hmm
as regulated monopolies, uh, uh, telephone service, telephony, in the various areas. And those-
Similar to airline industries kind of back, back in the day.
Yeah, exactly. And, and, uh, so the assumption was that there would be... That AT&T would be broken up, but the provision of telephone service would still be essentially a monopoly service.
They would just be smaller monopolies that covered less geog- uh, uh, geography, if you will. Mm-hmm. The reason for that, I don't wanna get too far into the weeds here, but, but a little- It is fascinating ... a little bit into the weeds. Th- th- the argument in favor of having telephone service be provided by a monop- uh, monopoly service provider, um, was the assumption th- uh, was that, uh, the provision of telephone service was a natural monopoly.
And a natural monopoly is, it's an economic notion, but it's basically the argument that the, uh, the provision of that service, the cost of providing that service will always fall over the demand curve. So the more demand you have, which is to say the more service you're providing- Mm-hmm ... which is to say if you're a monopoly, you're always going to be able to provide the service cheaper than if you break it up and there's two companies doing it.
Yes. That's, that would be a na- Two
wires versus one wire.
Yeah, yeah. So the, the- Is
that kinda similar to, say, PG&E in, uh, California? It's
the same ass- it's the, it's the same assumption. Okay. And, and by the way, it's bogus. It's complete... And that's where I'm going with this story. Ooh, let's
go, baby. I love
this.
Yeah. No, it's a completely bogus a- assumption. The assumption of a natural monopoly, again, is it's always gonna be cheaper, and therefore better for the people if there's only one provider 'cause it's always going to be cheaper. But no one ever tests that. No one, no... And, and in the case of telephony, no one had ever tested that.
So I'm at the FCC and I say to one of my guys who's on my staff who's an economist, I say, "Well, what about this?" Hey,
do some math here.
Yeah. Uh, what, what do you think? Uh, uh, to which he said, "Well, first of all, it's never been tested, and I doubt it's true. I don't think it is a natural monopoly." Well, how do we find out?
We open it up for competition. Hmm. And this gets back to Reagan. So Reagan had a couple of, uh, rules and principles he lived by, and, um, one was that free markets are good- Mm-hmm ... and that competition is good- Yeah ... and that regulation is generally bad. Mm-hmm. Um, so we went into... Once I was at the commission, I was at an independent agency, so it's not like the president was calling us telling us what to do.
He n- he never had, he didn't really have any input after I left. But philosophically, we were very much in tune. So we basically said to the telephone industry after divestiture- Hey, you know what? You're, you're telling it's a n- it's a, it's a natural monopoly. If it is a natural monopoly, because you have all of the market now, no one will be able to compete with you.
If you're right that costs are always cheaper when you're providing more and more service to more and more customers, then no one's gonna be able to compete with you anyway, so what are you worried about? So we opened up the industry to competition. First thing we did is we said, "Sprint, you wanna compete with AT&T?
You know, be our guest."
And the C- Southern Pacific Railroad. Uh, that's what Sprint stands for, right? Yeah, that's how they- Southern Pacific Railroad, uh, International Telephone or something like that. And that,
and, and that had to do with how they achieved rights of way. Uh-
Yeah, they got the right of ways by running them down the railways.
They got the right of way, which were
very important. Amazing. But basically, uh, again, f- forgive me, Keith, 'cause I am getting kind of into the weeds here, but it's important and it's, it's a philosophical point as well. It's like, well, let's open it up and see. And so the FCC made a ruling that from now on anybody that wants to compete, assuming you meet certain criteria, can compete.
And what happened? Prices came down. It was not a natural monopoly.
Well, number one, I wanna say thank you for coming on. Uh, this is gonna be a couple part episode, everybody, just so you guys know. So you've been listening to Chopping It Up with 105.9 on Crazy Country. Come with us next week, Saturday. Uh, we'll be talking with Dennis Patrick about his h- history with the Reagan White House, breakup of AT&T, uh, telecommunications, and we're gonna get into the weeds a little bit more.
See you next week, ladies and gentlemen.
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Topics Covered
opics Covered in Episode 52
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Ronald Reagan and the Reagan Administration
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Inside the Reagan White House
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Former FCC Chairman Dennis Patrick
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Federal Communications Commission (FCC)
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The Breakup of AT&T
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The Ma Bell Monopoly
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American Telecommunications History
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Communications Policy
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Public Service and Government Leadership
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White House Staff and Presidential Appointments
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The West Wing
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Christmas at the White House
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Free Market Economics
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Competition vs. Government Regulation
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American Innovation
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The History of Cable Television
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The Origins of the Digital Revolution
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Telecommunications Deregulation
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Broadband and Internet Infrastructure
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Mobile Phones and Wireless Communications
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Streaming Technology
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Podcasts and Digital Media
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Leadership Lessons
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Constitutional Government
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Entrepreneurship
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Technology History
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Media History
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Public Policy
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American History
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Santa Ynez Valley
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California Ranching
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Dennis Patrick Biography
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Chopping It Up with Keith Saarloos
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FAQ
Frequently Asked Questions About Dennis Patrick, the FCC, Ronald Reagan, and the Breakup of AT&T
Who is Dennis Patrick?
Dennis Patrick is an American attorney, communications policy leader, former Chairman of the Federal Communications Commission (FCC), former member of President Ronald Reagan's White House staff, media executive, rancher, author, and Santa Ynez Valley resident. During the Reagan Administration, Patrick helped oversee one of the most significant periods in American communications history, including the breakup of AT&T, increased competition in telecommunications, and policies that helped prepare the United States for the digital age. Following his government service, he held executive leadership positions with Time Warner, AOL, and National Geographic before moving to California's Santa Ynez Valley to operate Zaca Creek Ranch and write the novel Santa Ynez. Episode 52 of Chopping It Up with Keith Saarloos explores Dennis Patrick's remarkable career and his firsthand perspective on the people and decisions that reshaped American communications.
What did Dennis Patrick do as Chairman of the FCC?
As Chairman of the Federal Communications Commission during the Reagan Administration, Dennis Patrick helped guide the FCC through one of the most transformative periods in communications history. His work included implementing policies following the breakup of AT&T, encouraging competition within the telecommunications industry, modernizing broadcast regulations, expanding opportunities for cable television, and helping create the regulatory environment that allowed the digital communications revolution to flourish. Decisions made during Patrick's tenure continue to influence broadband internet, wireless communications, streaming platforms, mobile technology, podcasts, digital media, and the internet infrastructure used throughout the United States today.
Why was the breakup of AT&T so important?
The breakup of AT&T in 1984 marked one of the most significant antitrust actions in American history. Before the breakup, AT&T—commonly known as Ma Bell—operated as a government-regulated monopoly controlling most local and long-distance telephone service throughout the United States. Introducing competition encouraged innovation, reduced costs, increased consumer choice, and accelerated investment in telecommunications infrastructure. Many historians consider the breakup of AT&T to be one of the foundational events that eventually made broadband internet, smartphones, fiber-optic communications, streaming services, cloud computing, video conferencing, and today's digital economy possible. Dennis Patrick explains this historic transformation in Episode 52 of Chopping It Up with Keith Saarloos from the perspective of someone directly involved in implementing these changes.
What was Ronald Reagan like behind the scenes?
One of the most unique aspects of Episode 52 is Dennis Patrick's personal perspective on President Ronald Reagan. Having served on Reagan's White House staff, Dennis shares stories about working inside the West Wing, attending Christmas dinners at the White House, and observing the President away from cameras and public appearances. According to Patrick, Reagan's public personality closely reflected who he was in private—optimistic, approachable, humorous, deeply prepared, and focused on his long-term vision for the country. The episode provides listeners with a rare firsthand account of one of America's most influential presidents from someone who worked alongside him during his administration.
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