Some of my Guests are World-Famous.
But ALL are World-Class.
Real Conversations with the People Who Make the Santa Ynez Valley Special
Welcome to the complete archive of Chopping It Up with Keith Saarloos, the weekly radio show and podcast where Keith Saarloos sits down with the ranchers, farmers, winemakers, chefs, business owners, artists, musicians, pastors, entrepreneurs, historians, educators, veterans, community leaders, and local characters who shape life in California's Santa Ynez Valley.
Recorded in Los Olivos, California, and broadcast on Krazy Country 105.9—one of California's last independently owned country radio stations—Chopping It Up explores wine, farming, ranching, entrepreneurship, leadership, family, faith, creativity, hospitality, local history, California agriculture, Santa Barbara County wine, Western heritage, and the stories behind the people who call the Santa Ynez Valley home.
Some of my guests are world-famous. Some are world-class. Most are simply remarkable human beings with incredible stories worth preserving.
This valley has a way of attracting people who build things, create things, fix things, teach things, grow things, protect things, and leave their corner of the world a little better than they found it. Those are my favorite people.
Over the years, Chopping It Up has welcomed former White House officials, FCC Chairmen, legendary winemakers, vineyard owners, ranchers, chefs, artists, historians, educators, pastors, entrepreneurs, veterans, authors, photographers, musicians, nonprofit leaders, and community builders whose lives and work have helped shape the Santa Ynez Valley, Santa Barbara County, California agriculture, California wine, and communities across the United States.
Whether we're talking about wine, farming, ranching, entrepreneurship, leadership, community, creativity, local history, motorcycles, faith, food, family, public service, or the strange adventure of being alive, the goal is always the same:
Pull up a chair and have an honest conversation.
And learn something from somebody who has actually done the work.
More than a podcast, Chopping It Up with Keith Saarloos is a living archive of the people, places, businesses, traditions, and stories that continue to shape the Santa Ynez Valley. Every episode includes a complete transcript, in-depth show notes, historical context, related resources, and searchable topics, creating a growing library that preserves the voices of the people who have built this remarkable corner of California.
You can also listen on Spotify:
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THE SUN WILL COME UP TOMORROW
My Mom, Linda Saarloos | Part 2
Part 1 explored Linda’s childhood, her athletic life before Title IX, meeting Larry “Big Lar” Saarloos and the early years of their marriage. Part 2 tells the story of how Linda and Larry left Southern California, followed an old family dream and built a new life in the Santa Ynez Valley.
Big Lar had always wanted to become a farmer.
The dream was rooted in the generations that came before him. His father kept a calendar picture above his workbench labeled “Saarloos Dream Ranch.” Larry stared at it for years until he finally decided it was time to make the dream real.
Linda and Larry initially searched for ranchland near Paso Robles. Every Friday night, they would drive north from Long Beach, stay in Solvang and continue their search the following morning. Eventually, Linda asked the obvious question: Why keep driving beyond the place where they already wanted to stay?
Through a remarkable chance encounter, they found property on Ballard Canyon Road containing approximately 14,000 Fuji apple trees. The land fit their budget, the deal came together quickly and the Saarloos family entered the apple business.
Their first crop appeared to be a guaranteed success.
A neighbor connected to a growing company called Whole Foods offered to purchase every apple. After a year of work, Larry boxed the fruit, loaded it onto a truck and drove it to Los Angeles—only to have the entire shipment rejected because the apples had not been graded, waxed or formally approved by the company’s produce buyer.
Big Lar returned home with every apple.
The family gave away as many as possible to local schools. The remaining fruit was pushed onto the ground and fed to cattle.
Welcome to farming.
Linda understood that life on a farm required a person to be tough enough to endure disappointment and soft enough to remain grateful. The family could only eat so many apple pies, she reasoned, so perhaps they should replace the orchard with something people wanted.
They planted grapes.
The Saarloos family removed the apple trees, rebuilt the property, installed the posts and wires and planted the vines by hand. Keith and Heather later moved into the barn with their newborn daughter, Brielle. On Keith’s first night at the ranch, Big Lar informed him that harvest began at 4:00 the following morning.
That was the beginning of what would eventually become Saarloos + Sons.
Keith and Linda also revisit the life that grew around the vineyard: horses, team penning, championship belt buckles, the Roasted Bean coffee shop, Los Olivos bocce ball and the friendships that made the Santa Ynez Valley feel like home.
The conversation reveals the principles Big Lar carried through farming and business. Problems were opportunities. Failure was never final. When circumstances became frightening at night, he woke the following morning ready to work.
As he often reminded his family:
“From what I understand, the sun is going to come up tomorrow.”
Those words carried the family through lost crops, business setbacks and the most painful experience of their lives.
In March 2020, Big Lar spent a day moving cattle on horseback at Hollister Ranch overlooking the Pacific Ocean. He called Keith afterward and described it as one of the greatest days of his life.
The following day, Larry was thrown from a horse and suffered a catastrophic injury. He was airlifted to UCLA during the first days of the COVID-19 shutdown. His family was unable to visit him normally, and Larry passed away ten days later.
Public gatherings and traditional funerals were prohibited. Nevertheless, the Santa Ynez Valley found a way to show up.
A procession formed in Los Olivos to honor Big Lar and beloved local horsewoman Sue Herthel, who died during the same week. What Keith expected to be a handful of cars became a 45-minute parade led by a Santa Barbara County sheriff’s vehicle. Families, friends, farmers and neighbors passed the Saarloos and Herthel families while a church bell rang continuously over Grand Avenue.
Six years later, Keith uses this episode to place his gratitude on the record.
The experience confirmed what Linda and Larry had always known: the Santa Ynez Valley is special because of its people. It is a place where neighbors know one another, parents look after every child and an entire community will appear when a family reaches its lowest moment.
The episode concludes with something Keith was never able to do with his father: sit across from a parent, preserve the stories and say thank you while there was still time.
This is a conversation about farming, failure, marriage, loss, community and a mother who made room for her family’s dreams.
It is also the story of how the Saarloos family found its home.
What You’ll Hear
How Linda and Big Lar discovered the Santa Ynez Valley
The “Saarloos Dream Ranch” that inspired Larry
Why the family bought 14,000 Fuji apple trees
How their first apple crop was rejected
Why Linda suggested replacing the orchard with grapevines
Planting the original Saarloos family vineyard by hand
Keith and Heather moving into the barn with newborn Brielle
Linda and Larry’s years competing on horseback
The champion horse now recognized in the Cowgirl Hall of Fame
The Roasted Bean and its place in Santa Ynez Valley history
The legendary Los Olivos bocce league
Big Lar’s approach to uncertainty and failure
Why Larry called people during the worst moments of their lives
The business loss that ultimately made the family stronger
Big Lar’s final horseback ride at Hollister Ranch
Losing Larry during the beginning of the COVID-19 shutdown
The 45-minute Los Olivos procession for Larry Saarloos and Sue Herthel
Why the people make the Santa Ynez Valley special
Keith’s emotional tribute to his mother
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How the Saarloos Family Found the Santa Ynez Valley
Linda and Larry “Big Lar” Saarloos first became familiar with the Santa Ynez Valley through high school football games, visits to Westmont College and family trips to Solvang.
After selling their Southern California business, Larry decided to pursue his lifelong dream of owning ranchland, raising cattle and becoming a farmer. The couple initially looked near Paso Robles, but every trip began with an overnight stay in Solvang.
Linda eventually asked why they should continue driving beyond the place where they already wanted to be.
A chance conversation introduced them to a Ballard Canyon property planted with approximately 14,000 Fuji apple trees. The land fit their budget, and the Saarloos family became farmers in the Santa Ynez Valley.
Accordion 2: From Apple Farmers to Saarloos + Sons
The Saarloos family’s first apple crop was expected to be purchased by Whole Foods. After a full year of work, however, the shipment was rejected because the apples had not been waxed, graded or formally approved by the company’s produce buyer.
The family donated as many apples as possible to local schools and fed the remainder to cattle.
Linda suggested removing the orchard and planting grapes. At the time, the Santa Barbara County wine industry was considerably smaller than it is today.
The family removed the apple trees, burned and cleared the orchard, installed vineyard posts and wires and planted the vines by hand. They initially sold their fruit to other wineries before creating Saarloos + Sons and producing wine from their estate vineyards.Linda Saarloos is the mother of Keith Saarloos and TCU Baseball head coach Kirk Saarloos, the widow of Larry “Big Lar” Saarloos and one of the foundational figures behind the Saarloos family story.
Born in Pipestone, Minnesota, Linda moved to Southern California at seven years old as the youngest of six children. She grew up in a hardworking family, became a multi-sport athlete before Title IX and later worked as a hairdresser while helping build the foundation for her own young family.
Linda survived colon cancer and breast cancer and continues to fight bone cancer with the determination, humor and toughness that led her family to nickname her “The Wolverine.”
Today, Linda divides her time between the Saarloos family in California’s Santa Ynez Valley and Fort Worth, Texas. In Fort Worth, she is a beloved and highly visible supporter of TCU athletics, attending everything from baseball and football to basketball, tennis, equestrian, track, soccer and beach volleyball.
More than anything, Linda Saarloos is a mother and grandmother who has spent her life showing up. Her strength, sacrifices and belief in her family helped shape everything the Saarloos family has built.
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Keith Saarloos wanted to record his mother’s story while he still had the opportunity.
His father, Larry “Big Lar” Saarloos, passed away before Keith began Choppin’ It Up. Keith knows Big Lar would have loved being a guest and probably would have talked for the entire hour without needing to be asked a single question.
Keith did not want to make the same mistake twice.
Linda, however, hates being the center of attention and would never have voluntarily agreed to an interview. Keith therefore invited her to do something “fun,” took her for coffee and drove her directly to the Krazy Country 105.9 studio.
This two-part conversation preserves stories about Linda’s parents, her childhood, women’s athletics before Title IX, her marriage to Big Lar, the Saarloos baseball legacy, TCU, cancer, motherhood and the experiences that helped form the Saarloos family.
It is funny, deeply personal and occasionally emotional. Most importantly, it gives Linda Saarloos the opportunity to tell her story in her own voice.
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Accordion 3: Topics Covered in Episode 59
Ballard Canyon AVA
Santa Ynez Valley Union High School
Krazy Country 105.9
Additional topics:
Linda and Larry “Big Lar” Saarloos
Saarloos family history
Saarloos Dream Ranch
California farming families
Fuji apple farming
Vineyard planting
Santa Barbara County viticulture
Estate-grown wine
Windmill Ranch
Ballard Canyon farming
Farming failure and resilience
Family businesses
California dairy history
Dairy Valley
Bellflower and Cerritos history
Roasted Bean coffee shop
Los Olivos bocce ball
Team penning
Western horsemanship
Community involvement
Supporting local businesses
Independent radio
COVID-19 and family loss
Grief and resilience
Preserving family history
Mothers and sons
Marriage and sacrifice
Family legacy
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OW DID THE SAARLOOS FAMILY COME TO THE SANTA YNEZ VALLEY?
Linda and Larry Saarloos became familiar with the area through high school football, Westmont College visits and trips to Solvang. After searching for ranchland near Paso Robles, they realized the Santa Ynez Valley was where they truly wanted to live.
WHAT WAS THE SAARLOOS DREAM RANCH?
Larry’s father kept a large calendar photograph above his workbench and labeled it “Saarloos Dream Ranch.” The image represented the family’s longstanding desire to return to farming and own ranchland.
DID THE SAARLOOS FAMILY FARM APPLES BEFORE GRAPES?
Yes. Their first Ballard Canyon property contained approximately 14,000 Fuji apple trees. After their first commercial crop was rejected, the family removed the orchard and planted grapevines.
WHY WAS THE FIRST APPLE CROP REJECTED?
The fruit had not been graded, waxed or formally approved by the company’s produce buyer. Although another representative had offered to purchase the apples, the agreement had not been properly completed.
WHEN DID THE SAARLOOS FAMILY PLANT ITS VINEYARD?
The family transitioned from apples to grapes around 1999, when the Santa Barbara County wine industry was considerably smaller. They installed the vineyard infrastructure and planted the vines by hand.
HOW DID SAARLOOS + SONS BEGIN?
The Saarloos family began by farming grapes and selling them to other wineries. The family later started producing its own estate-grown wines, eventually creating Saarloos + Sons.
WHO WAS LARRY “BIG LAR” SAARLOOS?
Larry Saarloos was Linda’s husband and the father of Keith and Kirk Saarloos. He was a businessman, farmer, cattleman, horseman and foundational figure in the Saarloos family’s move to the Santa Ynez Valley.
WHAT DID BIG LAR MEAN BY “THE SUN WILL COME UP TOMORROW”?
It was Larry’s reminder that a setback did not end the story. Whatever happened during the day, the family could get up the following morning and face the next opportunity.
HOW DID BIG LAR DIE?
Larry was thrown from a horse while moving cattle at Hollister Ranch in March 2020. He suffered a catastrophic neck injury and died approximately ten days later during the beginning of the COVID-19 shutdown.
HOW DID THE SANTA YNEZ VALLEY HONOR BIG LAR?
Because traditional funerals were restricted, the community organized a vehicle procession through Los Olivos for Larry Saarloos and Sue Herthel. The procession lasted approximately 45 minutes while a church bell rang over Grand Avenue.
WHY IS COMMUNITY SO IMPORTANT TO THE SAARLOOS FAMILY?
Linda and Larry built their life by becoming active in local businesses, sports, churches, equestrian events and community traditions. When Larry died, the community’s extraordinary support demonstrated the importance of those relationships.
IS THIS THE END OF LINDA SAARLOOS’ INTERVIEW?
Yes. Episode 59 is Part 2 and concludes Keith Saarloos’ two-part conversation with his mother, Linda Saarloos.
Spotify and Apple Podcasts Description
Keith Saarloos continues his conversation with the woman behind the Saarloos family—his mother, Linda Saarloos.
In Part 2, Linda and Keith tell the story of how she and Larry “Big Lar” Saarloos followed a family dream to California’s Santa Ynez Valley.
They bought a Ballard Canyon ranch planted with approximately 14,000 Fuji apple trees and believed their first crop had already been sold. After a year of work, every apple was rejected. The family donated what they could, fed the rest to cattle and learned their first unforgettable lesson about farming.
Then Linda offered a simple idea:
They could only eat so many apple pies. Why not plant grapes?
That decision began the journey from apple farmers to vineyard owners and ultimately to Saarloos + Sons.
Keith and Linda also revisit the Roasted Bean coffee shop, Los Olivos bocce ball, horses, family business lessons and Big Lar’s habit of calling people during the worst moments of their lives.
Then the conversation turns to March 2020.
After spending what he called one of the greatest days of his life moving cattle at Hollister Ranch, Larry was thrown from a horse and suffered a catastrophic injury. He died ten days later during the beginning of the COVID-19 shutdown.
Unable to hold a traditional funeral, the Santa Ynez Valley showed up in a different way. What began as a small drive-by memorial became a 45-minute procession through Los Olivos honoring Larry Saarloos and Sue Herthel.
This episode is a story about farming, failure, marriage, grief and the community that carried the Saarloos family through its darkest moment.
Most importantly, it gives Keith the opportunity to place something permanently on the record:
His gratitude for the Santa Ynez Valley—and his love for his mom.
Episode 59 is Part 2 of Keith’s conversation with Linda Saarloos.
#SocialYnezValley #SaarloosAndSons #LindaSaarloos #ChoppinItUp #CaliforniaWine #FamilyHistory #BigLar
Episode 58 of Choppin’ It Up with Keith Saarloos features the most important guest Keith has ever brought into the studio: his mother, Linda Saarloos.
Without Linda, there is no Keith Saarloos. There is no Kirk Saarloos. There is no version of the Saarloos family story as we know it today.
The only problem was that Linda had absolutely no intention of becoming a podcast guest.
Keith got her into the car, bought her a cup of coffee, told her they were going somewhere fun and walked her directly into the Krazy Country 105.9 studio. It was an ambush carried out with love—and the beginning of a conversation Keith had wanted to record for years.
Linda was born in Pipestone, Minnesota, as the youngest of six children. When she was seven, her family packed everything they owned into a truck and car and moved to Southern California. Linda made the cross-country journey lying on a pillow in the rear window of a coupe—something that seemed perfectly normal at the time.
Her father, a farmer turned carpenter, helped construct dairy homes throughout the Bellflower and Paramount area. He was a remarkably strong, quiet man who could climb church beams without a harness, pull nails from his own hand and return immediately to work. Her parents raised six children in a two-bedroom home and somehow found enough room for several televisions, a satellite dish and every baseball game they could possibly watch.
That love of sports became part of Linda’s DNA.
Before the passage of Title IX transformed athletic opportunities for girls and women, Linda participated in nearly every sport her school offered. She played volleyball, basketball and softball, ran track and served as a cheerleader through the Girls Athletic Association. Had she been born into a later generation, Keith believes she would have competed as a Division I athlete.
That competitive spirit never went away.
Today, Linda divides her time between California’s Santa Ynez Valley and Fort Worth, Texas, where her son Kirk Saarloos serves as head baseball coach at Texas Christian University and her granddaughter Brielle attends school. Armed with a TCU golf cart and seemingly unlimited access, Linda has become a fixture across the university’s athletic programs.
Football, men’s basketball, women’s basketball, baseball, soccer, tennis, track and field, equestrian and beach volleyball—Linda attends nearly everything. She has better seats than the coaches, knows the athletes and has built an entire community around simply showing up.
Behind the humor is a woman of extraordinary resilience.
Linda survived colon cancer while Keith was in high school, later fought breast cancer and is now battling bone cancer. She still walks three miles, supports her children and grandchildren and continues moving forward with the determination that earned her the family nickname “The Wolverine.”
Keith and Linda also revisit the beginning of the Saarloos family love story.
Linda met Keith’s father, Larry “Big Lar” Saarloos, when she was sixteen. Larry asked her on a date, only to discover that she was booked for the next six Friday nights. He waited. Their first date was a trip to see MAS*H, and Larry returned home convinced that Linda was the woman he would marry.
Their life together would eventually connect family, farming, baseball and the Santa Ynez Valley—but it began with a teenage love story, an orange Mustang Mach 1 and a young hairdresser who saved enough money to buy their first home while Larry finished college.
Part 1 ends with one of the earliest tests of their marriage: Linda saved money for new living-room furniture, and Larry used it to buy a Model A. Once the car was dismantled and painted, every piece was stored inside Linda’s furniture-free living room.
It is a funny story, but it also reveals something essential about Linda Saarloos: she has spent her life making room for the dreams of the people she loves.
This is more than an interview with Keith’s mother. It is a living family history and a tribute to the woman whose strength, sacrifice, humor and unconditional support helped prepare the way for every Saarloos generation that followed.
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Linda Saarloos is the mother of Keith Saarloos and TCU Baseball head coach Kirk Saarloos, the widow of Larry “Big Lar” Saarloos and one of the foundational figures behind the Saarloos family story.
Born in Pipestone, Minnesota, Linda moved to Southern California at seven years old as the youngest of six children. She grew up in a hardworking family, became a multi-sport athlete before Title IX and later worked as a hairdresser while helping build the foundation for her own young family.
Linda survived colon cancer and breast cancer and continues to fight bone cancer with the determination, humor and toughness that led her family to nickname her “The Wolverine.”
Today, Linda divides her time between the Saarloos family in California’s Santa Ynez Valley and Fort Worth, Texas. In Fort Worth, she is a beloved and highly visible supporter of TCU athletics, attending everything from baseball and football to basketball, tennis, equestrian, track, soccer and beach volleyball.
More than anything, Linda Saarloos is a mother and grandmother who has spent her life showing up. Her strength, sacrifices and belief in her family helped shape everything the Saarloos family has built.
-
Keith Saarloos wanted to record his mother’s story while he still had the opportunity.
His father, Larry “Big Lar” Saarloos, passed away before Keith began Choppin’ It Up. Keith knows Big Lar would have loved being a guest and probably would have talked for the entire hour without needing to be asked a single question.
Keith did not want to make the same mistake twice.
Linda, however, hates being the center of attention and would never have voluntarily agreed to an interview. Keith therefore invited her to do something “fun,” took her for coffee and drove her directly to the Krazy Country 105.9 studio.
This two-part conversation preserves stories about Linda’s parents, her childhood, women’s athletics before Title IX, her marriage to Big Lar, the Saarloos baseball legacy, TCU, cancer, motherhood and the experiences that helped form the Saarloos family.
It is funny, deeply personal and occasionally emotional. Most importantly, it gives Linda Saarloos the opportunity to tell her story in her own voice.
-
Kirk Saarloos
Additional topics covered:
The Saarloos family history
Linda and Larry “Big Lar” Saarloos
Mothers and sons
Family storytelling
Preserving family history
Cancer resilience
Women athletes before Title IX
Girls Athletic Association
Southern California baseball history
Wally Kincaid
Small-ball baseball
College baseball coaching
The Saarloos baseball legacy
TCU football
TCU basketball
TCU women’s basketball
TCU beach volleyball
TCU equestrian
TCU track and field
TCU tennis
TCU soccer
Fort Worth, Texas
California farming families
Marriage and sacrifice
Family legacy
Motherhood
Grandmotherhood
The Saarloos family creed
Honoring those who came before us
Preparing the way for those yet to come
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WHO IS LINDA SAARLOOS?
Linda Saarloos is the mother of Keith Saarloos and TCU Baseball head coach Kirk Saarloos. She is the widow of Larry “Big Lar” Saarloos and one of the foundational members of the Saarloos family. Linda divides her time between California’s Santa Ynez Valley and Fort Worth, Texas.
WHERE WAS LINDA SAARLOOS BORN?
Linda Saarloos was born in Pipestone, Minnesota. She was the youngest of six children. Her family moved from Minnesota to Southern California when she was seven years old.
WHAT SPORTS DID LINDA SAARLOOS PLAY?
Linda played volleyball, basketball and softball, ran track and served as a cheerleader. She competed before the expansion of athletic opportunities created by Title IX, when many girls’ sports were organized through the Girls Athletic Association.
HOW MANY TIMES HAS LINDA SAARLOOS HAD CANCER?
Linda survived colon cancer and breast cancer and is continuing to fight bone cancer. Her strength and determination led her family to nickname her “The Wolverine.”
WHO WAS LARRY “BIG LAR” SAARLOOS?
Larry “Big Lar” Saarloos was Linda’s husband and the father of Keith and Kirk Saarloos. He loved Linda, baseball and farming. His dream of becoming a farmer ultimately helped lead the Saarloos family to California’s Santa Ynez Valley.
HOW DID LINDA AND LARRY SAARLOOS MEET?
Linda and Larry met as teenagers in Southern California. Larry asked Linda on a date, but she was already booked for the next six Friday nights. He waited six weeks, and their first date was a trip to see the movie MAS*H.
WHAT CAR DID LARRY SAARLOOS DRIVE WHEN HE AND LINDA WERE DATING?
Larry drove an orange Ford Mustang Mach 1. Keith describes it in the episode as one of the memorable details from the beginning of his parents’ relationship.
WHAT DID LINDA SAARLOOS DO FOR A LIVING?
Linda worked as a hairdresser. While Larry was finishing college, Linda saved enough money to help purchase their first home.
WHY DID LARRY SAARLOOS PUT CAR PARTS IN THEIR LIVING ROOM?
Linda had saved money to buy living-room furniture. Larry used the money to purchase a Model A instead. After the car was dismantled and painted, the pieces were stored inside their living room so the new paint would not be scratched.
WHO IS KIRK SAARLOOS?
Kirk Saarloos is Linda and Larry Saarloos’ son and Keith Saarloos’ brother. He played Major League Baseball and later became the head baseball coach at Texas Christian University.
WHY IS LINDA SAARLOOS SO WELL KNOWN AT TCU?
Linda lives near the TCU campus and attends an extraordinary number of university sporting events. She supports baseball, football, basketball, soccer, tennis, track and field, equestrian and beach volleyball. She often travels around campus in a TCU baseball golf cart and has become a familiar member of the TCU community.
IS THIS THE COMPLETE LINDA SAARLOOS INTERVIEW?
No. Episode 58 is Part 1 of a two-part conversation between Keith and Linda Saarloos. Their conversation continues in Episode 59.
WHERE IS CHOPPIN’ IT UP RECORDED?
Choppin’ It Up with Keith Saarloos is recorded in California’s Santa Ynez Valley and broadcast on Krazy Country 105.9, one of California’s remaining independent radio stations.
WHAT IS CHOPPIN’ IT UP WITH KEITH SAARLOOS?
Choppin’ It Up is a radio show and podcast hosted by farmer, winemaker and storyteller Keith Saarloos. The show features long-form conversations with the people whose lives, work and stories help shape the Santa Ynez Valley and beyond.
John Wright and The Analogue Room: Vinyl, Wine, and the Return of Real Connection
In Episode 57 of Choppin’ It Up, Keith Saarloos sits down with John Wright, founder and winemaker of Standing Sun Wines and creator of The Analogue Room, a new vinyl listening lounge and wine bar in Solvang, California.
John’s path to the Santa Ynez Valley was anything but predictable. Raised around Maryland and Washington, D.C., he later lived in Manhattan and rural Pennsylvania, earned two master’s degrees in architecture, worked as a contractor, and restored historic barns and farmhouses before moving to California and entering the Santa Barbara County wine industry.
That background helps explain the way John sees wine and music. He is drawn not only to the finished product but also to the physical process—the barrels, tanks, pumps, hoses, turntables, wires, record sleeves, glowing tube amplifiers, and human hands required to make something come alive.
At Standing Sun Wines in Buellton, John brought wine and live music together through a concert series featuring local performers and nationally touring artists, including The Revivalists, American Aquarium, Cody Canada, Kathleen Sieck, Tom Curren, and many others.
The Analogue Room is the next chapter of that story.
Located in Solvang’s Founders Square, The Analogue Room combines vinyl records, thoughtfully selected local and imported wines, craft beer, nonalcoholic drinks, square focaccia-style pizza, salads, guest DJs, and full-album listening. It was created as a place where people can step away from their phones, slow down, and experience music as something shared instead of something playing invisibly in the background.
Keith and John discuss the ritual of choosing an album, studying its artwork, dropping the needle, opening a bottle of wine, and allowing an entire record to unfold as the artist intended. They explore how music and wine both change with mood, time, place, food, memory, and the people gathered around us.
The conversation also examines the idea of the third place—a gathering place outside of home and work where community can form naturally. Whether that place is a coffee shop, wine bar, movie theater, concert venue, neighborhood restaurant, or vinyl listening room, these shared spaces give people something the digital world cannot completely reproduce: presence.
From rediscovering The Cure, Echo & the Bunnymen, The Smiths, Counting Crows, Jack Johnson, and outlaw country to witnessing the international energy of the World Cup, this episode is ultimately about our need to experience life together.
The technology in our pockets has given us nearly unlimited convenience.
But convenience is not the same thing as connection.
The Analogue Room is John Wright’s invitation to put down the phone, put on a record, order something good, and stay awhile.
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Who Is John Wright and What Is The Analogue Room?
John Wright is a Santa Ynez Valley winemaker, preservation architect, builder, music promoter, and entrepreneur. He is the founder and winemaker behind Standing Sun Wines in Buellton, California, and the creator of The Analogue Room in Solvang.
Before becoming a Santa Barbara County winemaker, Wright earned two master’s degrees in architecture and worked in historic preservation. He began contracting as a teenager, helped put himself through college through construction work, and later restored old barns and farmhouses in rural Pennsylvania.
After moving to California in 2006, Wright discovered the Santa Ynez Valley during a weekend trip. He purchased a home in the area and eventually made the valley his permanent home, raising his children locally and building his career in wine, music, hospitality, and community-centered spaces.
John founded Standing Sun Wines in 2007. His architectural and construction background influenced his approach to winemaking: he was drawn to the physical craft of the cellar and the transformation of raw agricultural materials into a finished product.
Standing Sun also became known as a live music venue. Through Standing Sun Live, Wright hosted local musicians, emerging artists, singer-songwriters, and nationally touring bands in an intimate winery setting. The project helped connect Santa Barbara County wine with the independent music community.
In 2026, Wright opened The Analogue Room, a vinyl lounge and wine bar at 1693 Mission Drive, Suite D2, in Solvang, California. The space features full albums played on vinyl, guest DJs, local Santa Barbara County wines, imported wines, craft beer, nonalcoholic options, square pizza, and salads.
Unlike a traditional tasting room, nightclub, or restaurant, The Analogue Room is designed around intentional listening. Records are selected, handled, and played in the room, allowing guests to hear complete albums, explore unfamiliar music, and experience the physical ritual of vinyl.
The Analogue Room is also an example of a “third place”—a community gathering space separate from home and work. It gives Santa Ynez Valley residents and visitors a place to meet, listen, eat, drink, talk, and participate in a shared experience without making a screen the center of the evening.
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Hey, everybody. It is 10:00 AM on a Saturday morning, and that means you are listening to Chopping It Up with your host, Keith Sarlos. Yes, the guy who makes wine and, uh, sells cupcakes over in Los Olivos, California. This is our little chance on a Sunday morning to talk to the people in our valley who make it special, people who have found our little home, people who have lived here a long time and make it better. And today, I have a very special guest with a very new thing coming to our valley. Uh, state your name for the record, sir. John Wright. Hi, John. How you doing today? Very good. How are you? All right, so let's roll back a little bit. Mm-hmm. So most people would know you from Standing Sun- Correct ... and all the concerts and stuff that you guys- Yes would put over. I, uh, I mean, I went over there and heard ... I mean, give us a little list of the people that you had play through there. Mm. I mean, Kathleen Seek. Kathleen- We'll just start there ... has played a lot. Kathleen's played a lot. Yep. Um, we've had bands like Cody Canada, uh, American Aquarium. Um, we had, uh, The Revivalists played there. Yeah. Um- I saw Tom Curren there. Tom Curren played there. That was big for me. Yeah. We, we've had a number of touring artists come through that have been really great, and smaller bands to big, you know, national touring bands. That's awesome. It's, it's been great. So, uh, let's start at the begin- how did you find the valley, man? Moved from the East Coast, uh- Where'd you grow up? Grew up Maryland, DC, moved to New York. Right. Lived in Manhattan for a while. Lived out in outside of Manhattan, Bucks County, Pennsylvania for a while. At that point, I was an architect doing preservation work, and I was restoring old barns in the- Really? rural parts of Pennsylvania. Okay, this, just so you know, this is why I asked this question- Great. Things you never knew ... is e- everybody think th- We're gonna play the game. Right. Things you never knew, right? Yeah. So how did you get into restoring barns? I, I have two master's degrees in architecture, one of which is a preservation degree, and so I started, you know, contracting work when I was 15, and put myself through college as a contractor, and, you know, building barns and taking them apart and putting them back together for, mostly for weekend people from New York, you know, their weekend houses and stuff- Yeah in, in rural Pennsylvania. S- all pre-internet stuff, you know, way back. Awesome. '95 to 2005 or something. Two master's degrees? Two master's degrees. Nerd. Yeah. N- and b- been pretty much d- and then went and started making wine. So, um, moved to California in 2006. Moved to Santa Monica, then to Malibu, and then to Santa Ynez, and when we were living in, uh, Santa Monica, we bought a weekend house up here. Awesome. And kinda like, you know, we literally came up here for a weekend and went into the real estate office, saw the girl at the front desk that- Yeah ... probably only worked on Saturdays, and went and bought a house that same day, and then started, like, moving up here. Like, immediately. The valley found you. Yeah, it was wild. We had a really good time. Uh, raised our kids here between Family School and Dunn Middle and the high school. Yeah. And, uh, you know, we've, uh, we've... Well, at that time I was married, and we enjoyed it thoroughly, and then, you know, since then I'm still the only one here. Everyone else has moved on. Got it. You know? So, but I still love it, and I'm tied to the winery, I'm tied to the valley, tied to this new project, and, uh, I love it. I love it here. So let's talk about this new project because it, this is, uh, I, I love the fact that you did it so I'd, you did it so I didn't have to. Right. I- Because- ... this is fantastic. W- tell us all about what you're doing now. So basically I've created a vinyl listening room, uh, that's gonna have- A food, it has a food component, it has a pizza component. So it's a wine bar, it's a, it has beer, it's a restaurant. Um, and it, it focuses mostly on the fact that, you know, people are looking for a space where they can kind of, you know, unclick from their, you know, port- you know, their, their phone and so forth, and kinda settle into a night of listening. And so we might play full albums and we might have a guest DJ. But as a whole, it's a listening room, it's a, you know, it's a more kind of chill environment where we're playing great music. Uh, we've got a great c- food component. We've got a great wine list. We're featuring all sort of, like, local wineries that are real small production, most of which don't have a tasting room or anything. We have some larger wineries too, but as a whole, we're featuring, you know, small production stuff in general, you know. Beers too. And where are you located? We're over in, uh, the Founders Square, uh, Market, which is, uh, near Chomp and the new creamery- Yeah ... and stuff like that. But right, it basically, if you went from the creamery and Chomp and you went towards the coffee shop, we're kind of in between the two. I love the fact because one of the things I, I just personally, and I'm, I'm always thumping this, uh, to anybody who will listen, is, you know, we're living in a digital age and m- and we're l- lucky enough to have a analog childhood and a digital adulthood. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Right? And a lot of great things come with a digital adulthood. You know, you can, you don't have to leave your house to watch a movie- Yeah ... and y- you know, everything's streamed right to your pocket. But one of the things I've always struggled with is, you know, I really do like going to the movies. Mm-hmm. And I just went and saw, uh, uh, The Odyssey. Mm-hmm. Went up to Santa Maria Mall. Mm-hmm. Walked around the mall. You know, and- It's a whole experience. You know, and I came home and, and I bought three tickets, and my wife and my son couldn't go, so I flew, uh, poor man's first class, and- ... it was all sold out, and I had an empty seat to my left and an empty seat to my right. Oh, it was fantastic. I loved it. I loved every minute of it. Spread out. Just all spread out. I got a bucket of popcorn. And there is a cer- certain amount of beauty going to- Yeah ... a, uh, movie theater- Mm-hmm ... and hearing the gasps- Yeah ... and hearing the laughs. Mm-hmm. And, uh, you know, hearing people cheer at the end of a movie and you're like, "Hey, we all did this together." Yeah. "This is awesome." Yeah. I love going to the music- Yeah ... and going to the bowl. There's a totally different... You know, I, I always go back to music, and I know- Yeah ... this is a huge component of yours- Mm-hmm ... where- I could, like, concerts on TV are never gonna take off. Mm-mm. They're just not. No. You know? They could say, "Oh, you can watch this on T-," and you're like- No "What's the point, man?" Mm-hmm. But having gone to a ki- as a kid, going to a record shop- Mm-hmm ... or, you know, Licorice Pizza or The Warehouse or Sam Goody or Tower Records or whatever, I loved the aspect of going out and being a part of a community. Yeah. And what you have done, and this is 100% me throwing flowers at you, is that analog experience and being communal and going out and enjoying a bottle of wine with a couple of people, listening to the same thing, tasting the same thing, is a very primal part- Mm-hmm of who we are as people. And I, I'm, I'm just personally applauding you, man. Great. You, you made a- I appreciate it ... great decision here. It was a journey. And what's the name of it? It's called Analog Room. Oh, my gosh. Just a- What a magnificent turn of phrase. Yeah, so it is not digital. So- But- ... what was the idea behind this? You know, I, it really was a evolution of ideas. The first idea was that it was going to be a wine and beer bar. And I found the space and I liked the space. And already having a tasting room and being in the wine business, I was kinda like, I, I kinda wanna expand on that, um- I wanted to find something new in that space and not just do another tasting room. Yeah. And, um, and then it kinda morphed into like, well, it should be a restaurant too, so that there's a food component so that then it's not a bar. It has, you know, kids and families can come. Yeah. Um, and then it was like, well, how can I curate something? I was thinking about just a small, you know, solo act live music thing, and I was like, I really wanna tie in the music component. And I think I, I was in Miami and I was at a... walked by a more of like a coffee shop- Yeah ... vinyl listening room. And, um, I s- By the way, the, have you ever s- you- Yeah ... followed the Japanese ones? Yeah. I mean, they're like- Those are awesome ... I went down the YouTube rabbit hole- Yeah ... of all the, all the Japanese, uh, listening rooms. And it just, that ritual, you know, that ceremony- Mm-hmm ... that the things that you talk about with, you know, going to the movies, putting on an album. It's no different than, you know, opening a bottle of wine- Mm-hmm ... and, you know, making dinner. It's that process that you go through that gives you those sensations and those, and that, that satisfaction and that community and that, and sort of stuff and that makes the memory. Yeah. And so, you know, that, that idea of, of doing that as a community experience, um, just seemed to make a lot of sense. Mm-hmm. And so I didn't wanna do, you know, a coffee bar and I, and I also went to some nighttime, um, you know, hi-fi bars and stuff, and they were a little, you know... one was in Miami, and it was just a completely different vibe. Sure. It wouldn't work here. But as a whole, I loved, again, I like... It's the same thing that I, why I fell in love with making wine was it wasn't the tasting room that I fell in love with. Mm-hmm. It was the cellar. Absolutely. And, you know, and it was the barrels and the tanks and the forklift and the pumps and the hoses, and all that stuff was just spoke to me as an architect, as a contractor, as a builder. I saw all those pieces. And with The Analog Room- I have all those pieces again. Yeah. I have the wires and the, and the turntables that really, you know, they really move. Mm-hmm. And the, and the glow, you know, tube amps and the, you know, and the, all the, all the stuff that gives warmth and you can adjust and you can... And it's not, you don't just plus- press play. Mm-hmm. You have to, you have to make it play, and you have to, and you have to experience it in that way. And so it's, it's taking the time to just, to pick a record and open it up and look at the album art. Okay. You know? And it's just- You're, now you're in my, you're in my warm, fuzzy zone here. Yeah, I mean, it's just so nice. Because I've always said, you know, album, you know, o- old albums specifically, uh, were the poor man's art. Yeah. Right? Mm-hmm. If you bought a, if you have a nice album collection back in the day, and I know we're kinda dating ourselves here. Mm-hmm. But when you had albums, you would put it up. Yeah. Right? Mm-hmm. You'd put it on the wall. Mm-hmm. You would say, somebody walk into your room when you were a kid- Yeah ... you could almost immediately know who that person was by the albums, the posters- Yeah ... the things they have just hanging on their wall. Sometimes you were lucky and you got a poster. Exactly right. And then you could, the times of sitting back, and I know one of the things by being analog and such a great name, um, rarely do you sit back and, like even CDs to a certain extent, I just remember when I was a kid, you'd get Appetite for Destruction. Mm-hmm. Right? Mm-hmm. And you're like, "Oh, look at the album art on this thing." Mm-hmm. And then you would pull the sleeve out- Mm-hmm ... and start unrolling it, and you could see every single word- Yeah ... that they printed- Yeah ... um, on that album. And you just laid back and you put a set of headphones on and absolutely get lost in- Tune out the world ... to tune out the world. Yeah. Mm-hmm. You know? And the thing I am super excited about is- The convenience that we got from digital. Like now, in my pocket I have every single album in human history. Mm-hmm. And yet my, uh, Spotify wrap-up at the end of the year is just the exact same stuff- ... that I've been listening to for a long time. Yeah. Right? Yeah. But I'm lucky enough to have an 18-year-old son, and I'm like... He's like, "Give me the aux cord." Mm-hmm. Right? Mm-hmm. So one of the things I wanted to talk to you about is you guys have, um, been open how long now? Three weeks. About three weeks. Yeah. In the first three weeks- Yeah ... of people coming in and unplugging and things like that, I wanna hear from you- Mm-hmm ... you know, your field notes- Yeah about what people are experiencing and what are the unintended consequences that you maybe didn't think of, but what are the things that you're most excited about seeing people come in, putting a needle on the record maybe for the first time- Right ... and sitting back and, and being a part of, like, a shared experience? Yeah. We've got a lot of people that... One that's most surprising to me is the number of young people. Mo- my two basic, the, the guy, Joe, that's running the, the, the kitchen, and Blake that's running kind of the bar and my general manager, both are in their mid-20s. They're friends of my sons, and they both, um, are very into classic rock and, you know, and- Awesome just, and that's, like, all they listen to. And so, you know, they listen to some newer stuff. We're back, baby. But, but yeah, it's like... And my son does the same thing, and your son will do the same thing, too, because they're familiar with what... I did the same thing with my father's music- Yeah ... you know? And- My super kid likes Black Flag because of me. Right. You know? You know? And, and d- yeah, I remember, you know, my s- my son getting a Black Keys album when he was 12. Right. You know? And it's like Yeah, that old classic album. Right, yeah, yeah. It's like, like, or listening to Romano when he was 12. Yeah, yeah. You know, I'm like... And, and so there's something about the generational aspect of this. Sure. You know? One of the, the people that are coming in are, they're asking to hear, you know, Prince, or they're, they wanna hear Chicago, or they wanna hear- Cool ... you know, certain things that, like, you know- Just so you know, this is why I had you on, 'cause I wanna, I wanna know. Yeah. I wanna know what people are doing. It's... Every- Mostly people are just sort of in awe of the process. They're, you know- Yeah ... they, they know that this stuff exists. They know that it's out there. But seeing it happen- Yeah ... in front of them, um, they might have a little player at home or something. They might have a few albums. Some, some people, we get some really great, you know, people that are very enthusiastic about- Sure this stuff, too. Um, but as a whole, the general public that's coming in is just loves seeing the process of it- Yeah ... and loves just listening to whatever plays. And, you know, we weave from daytime stuff to that's, you know, more, you know, more along the lines of, like, Eagles or Joe Walsh or something like that, or some, you know, you know, uh- I don't know. And something more easy listening at the- Sure ... beginning of the day, you know, and then we'll weave in some- A little bit of rock. Yeah, we've done s- we've got some- We've got some Moody Blues, some Michael McDonald. Right. You know, we could, we could put some of that on too, but and then we'll get into some more, you know- little more heavier stuff later in the evening. Yep. And, um, it's, everyone just, I don't know. We don't really- They're curating a vibe, man ... yeah, we're, no one's really, like, saying, like, specifically, "Can you play something?" They're just kinda letting us do what we do- Awesome ... which is nice. And then every once in a while, someone will pick something specific. But it's, we're still, we're still figuring out that vibe too. Sure. You know, we, we do have some rotating DJs that will come in and they'll play their own stuff. We had one guy that came in, played a lot of house music and stuff- Yeah ... that was really fun. I wanna guest DJ. You can guest DJ. Yes. I just, just right before I walked over here, I was talking to someone that walked by. They left the Off The Record record store- Yeah ... which we've been partnering with on a lot of things, and Chelsea over there said, "Go down and see Analog Room." Right before I left to come here- Awesome ... I'm, I'm telling these people, I'm like, "Come in and look real quick, but I gotta go to, I gotta do an interview." Awesome. And, um, they came in, and he was a DJ. He'd, he just DJed at Sky View Motel- Yeah ... up in Los Alamos, and, uh, he's gonna come down and DJ at some point. Um, this Friday we have Justin, who's one of the d- one of the record store employees- Yeah ... and DJs at, at, uh, Off The Record, and he's gonna come and play from 6:00 to 10:00 on Friday. Sweet. And so we're letting people bring their own energy too. Yeah. You know? So we're not trying to, like- Well, it's kinda what you did at Standing Stone. Yeah. I mean, you're really, you're... I've always thought, like, you know, at, at somebody's house, art is how you, um, decorate your walls. Mm-hmm. Right? Wine is how you can decorate your palate. Mm-hmm. And music is how you decorate the space in between spaces. Mm-hmm. I agree. Yeah. And one of the things I, I'm super excited to hear you talk about is, number one, you're creating com- a community atmosphere. Mm-hmm. Right? If somebody just walks in, they can sit down, relax, not say a word to anybody else- Mm-hmm and just kinda soak it up. Mm-hmm. Or they can be a participant- Mm-hmm ... which is a very beautiful, rare thing- Mm-hmm ... you know, these days. It's like the, when you were just discussing about, you know, people being part of the process, I always go back to the, the taffy store that shows people making taffy- Mm-hmm right? Right. Sells a lot of taffy. Mm-hmm. And w- having this- I remember that, yeah. Mm-hmm ... music aspect of it, of people walking in and going, "Hey, do you, can we play this n-?" "Uh, sure, we'll throw it on," or whatever. I don't know if you do that yet, but that, that seems like a really fun, just like- Yeah ... group experience. Yeah. We've got records that, you know, people can walk up to and they can, they can thumb through them, and, uh, we do get people that, that ask, you know, "Can you put this on?" And so we kinda have like a little sec- little area where people might put a couple albums down. Oh, gotcha. And then we'll, you know, we're not necessarily playing a specific song. Yeah. We might just put that album on. Awesome. Um, so we're not taking direct requests- Yeah ... per s- per se, but we're, we're letting people guide us- Right ... into, you know, what they're feeling at the moment. Yeah, what they're into. Yeah. It's like High Fidelity for wine. Yeah. I like it. It's, it's a, it, it i- it's like a tasting, yeah. Yeah. It's- I, I just actually re-watched High Fidelity recently- Yeah ... which made it come to mind. Right. You know, it's like that was always the weird part, and I, I- Had, you know, years ago when we were up in Ardmore, I remember we were just kind of talking about it. The, the person who used to work at our record shop- Mm-hmm you know, i- specifically in LA- Mm-hmm ... kind of transferred at one point to working in a wine shop. Right. And then it was really important to them- Mm-hmm ... you know, what you like. Right. And, uh, Silver Lake Wine, which is like I've known those guys for- Mm-hmm ... years, were always kind of like, "So tell me what you're doing tonight." Mm-hmm. "And what, what are you doing? What are you eating? What are you this? What are you that?" And there's always been, and I think you hit the nail right on the head with this, is there's always been that same thing, like what am I feeling like in the morning? What do I feel like at night? Mm-hmm. W- you know, the music I work out to- Mm-hmm is different than the music I put on, you know- Cooking dinner ... cooking dinner or late at night or just having- Mm ... ambient stuff- Mm ... in the background. And wine kind of follows a little bit- Yeah ... of that same- Mm-hmm ... trajectory. Yeah. You know, there's stuff you wanna drink outdoors. There's stuff- Mm-hmm ... you wanna have with a big meal. Mm-hmm. There's stuff you're just sitting on your back porch watching the sun go down with your partner- Mm-hmm ... and going, "Hey, this is great." Mm-hmm. You know? And I think wine and music go hand-in-hand. They do. So tell me more about the food you guys have there. So we're doing a sort of a focaccia based, you know, kind of... It's not really, I guess it's thick crust, but it's, it's a, you know, it's a square pizza. Um, so far we're just doing margherita and pepperoni. Perfect. But today- What more do you need? I know. It's been... I mean, that was definitely the beginning, and we're g- expanding a little bit. Today we're going to the farmers market. My, Joe, the chef, will be there, and we're gonna search out some other ingredients, some other things. We're gonna probably add one or two more pizzas by this weekend. Cool. And so we do salads. We do the pizzas. We do, you know, it's one square or a half or a full pizza. The full pizza is 11 inches by 16. It definitely feeds three or four. Yeah. And, um, and then we'll kind of start to expand a little bit. We'll... But we're not, it's, we're... All in all, we're gonna keep it simple. We're not gonna go, we're not gonna have 10 different things. Smart move. You know, we're gonna keep it simple, but we're gonna, we're sourcing, you know, our, our greens from Findlay Farm. We're sourcing- Awesome ... you know, stuff from the, from the farmers market here. We're, you know, working with local bakers and stuff for, to do a part bake, to do the part bake crusts. And- Sweet ... and then we're just, um, kinda just- assembling. You know? Yeah. We're not, we're not going crazy with it. So it's, it's all super fresh, but we don't have to, like, we're not making the dough- Yeah and, you know, all that sort of stuff that takes- You're an analog listening room. You're not a pizza place. Right. It's- Yeah. And it's, it's, it's nice. The finish is, it takes, like, 10 minutes to finish a pizza, so- Awesome ... it's, it's really nice. So what's your go-to? Um, you clearly love music. I do. I mean, it's like if you're going in, uh... What is on your playlist currently? What do you listen, what's in high rotation? I mean, I s- s- 'Cause- I tend to listen to a lot of the artists that I used to have at the winery- Hmm ... which, you know, I, I, you know, the... It could be, you know, a lot of things like James Hunter Revival, or it could be like Ryan Bingham or something like that. Not that he was there, but, um- Yeah ... but that sort of, like, you know, that singer-songwriter ver- v- you know, kind of verging on a little bit of outlaw country and stuff. Um- Yeah. People with something to say. Yeah. S- but th- I, all in all, the... I mean, from early on, I always loved music, but what I really started to love music is, was really the Counting Crows. Hmm. Specifically because of the lyrics. It was the first person that really made me pay attention to the song and the story, and later became friends with Adam Duritz, and, and I never told him that or anything. But that- Well, he knows now. N- Yeah. Yeah, he's definitely listening, for sure. Of course, man. And, um, but that, the story is, can be so powerful in so, such a small amount of words. Yeah. And since then, just dove so much deeper into other genres that I wasn't, you know, really paying attention to, you know- Let's- ... earlier on. Yeah. Let's hear. What, like what? Well, I mean, even going back to, like, stuff like I used to listen to, like The Cure, and Echo & the Bunnymen, and The Smiths, and all that sort of stuff. And at the time, I was a 17-year-old kid skateboarding in DC. I wasn't sitting still listening to the music. Right. Now I put on Echo & the Bunnymen, and I listen to, you know, the, the whole album like it should be, and I listen to the songs deeper, and I listen to... And it reminds me of things that, you know, at the time from 20, 30, 40 years ago. But as a whole, I think as, it might be that, you know, growing older and g- and being s- you know, slower about things and, and being more focused on things- Mm-hmm ... you know, has allowed that. But- You know, like you said about music, it's just, it can be so deep and so, so many layers to it that, you know, it's nice to kind of go back and re-a- Rediscover rediscover things- Yeah ... that, you know, maybe, maybe they made sense back then, but they don't make sense now, you know? To- Like- That recently happened to me where, um, my son, you know, being 18 years old and then b- getting to grow up in this valley, uh, said, "Hey, we're going to a concert." And I'm like, "Okay." And Mom was out of town kind of a thing, and we went, and he's- I'm like, "Who are we gonna go hear?" And he's like, "I'm not telling you. We're just going." I'm, "All right. Let's go." Hop in the car, drive down. Uh, we, you know, donated some wine to s- he's like, "We're donating wine, so we're gonna get some tickets." I'm, "Hey, whatever it takes, bud." He knows. He knows the game. And we show up, and I'm like, "Oh," and I look, and it's Jack Johnson, right? And we got to go see his, uh, surf film music, uh, documentary. Nice. And he, I think he kinda didn't tell me because I'm not really the biggest Jack Johnson fan. Yeah. And, you know, if he's listening, of course he is. You know, I'm sorry about it. Now I am. Mm-hmm. Right? And he loves him. Yeah. Just absolutely digs it. He loves to surf. He's, it's like- Mm-hmm ... kinda right down- Mm-hmm ... right down the pipe for him. Yeah. And sitting there and listening and being older- Yeah ... a little bit, I go, "Oh, now I like this." Right. You know? It's something totally different than maybe at the time maybe I liked, you know, No Effects or punk music- Mm-hmm or outlaw country or any of these different things that I was like, "Nah, I'm not really into that." Mm-hmm. And now it was really fun to have my own kid- Yeah ... who has a record player- Mm-hmm ... who loves music- Mm-hmm ... who is introducing me to bands that maybe I should've heard. Mm-hmm. And I think that analog of what you're doing- Yeah is exactly that on a group setting. Right. Yeah. It's just absolutely beautiful. Yeah. Uh, what's some of the weirdest stuff you guys play? Oh, w- What are you, what are you shocked by? What does that mean? We, um, we just picked up... Oh, geez, I just watched their videos last night. It's like, it's like that French ba- French-Canadian band. Oh, yeah, the one that plays offbeat. Yeah. Yeah, and they play in, like, 8/16 time. Yes. Yes. And they wear a costume. Yes. Right. What? Okay. Just so you know, this is fun, 'cause you're listening to a... Just so you know, one of the cool parts- Antoine something too. Yeah ... yeah, something like that, where, like, what I love about Crazy Country- Yeah, yeah you know, like Carp and all these guys here, I mean, there's five independent radio stations left in California, and this is one of them. Wow. Right? And we're so lucky to have our own little college station- Mm-hmm ... here. Um, but getting turned on to new music- Yeah ... right, is almost... I won't say almost impossible. It's really easy to get stuck in your rut. Yeah. Right? Oh, yeah. Unless you have a kid or you have somebody going- Yeah ... "You need to check this out." Mm-hmm. And I think that's one of the fun parts about, like, what is this? Right. And you're like, "How is... Why do I like this?" I know. I listened to the album, then I went home, and I YouTubed them, and I watched the, um, like, a live performance. Yeah. And, like, and I'm, like, lost in it going, like, "I don't know if I like it or if I love it." Yes. Like, I, I can't quite tell. It's scratching a very weird itch. Yeah. I don't know. You know? I mean, I think for a little while, and to, to experience it, it's amazing. I mean, the... You know, I don't know if I would listen to it every day of the week, but I think it's one of those things. Like, it just opens your eyes to something, and then you... And then, you know, like, I saw... Then, you know, something else popped up- Yeah ... and someone's interviewing them, and they're in costume, and you can't really hear what they're saying. It's like this whole thing. Like, you know, they're just creating their own mystique. And in the same vein as wine, you know, it's really easy to get stuck in your rut- Yeah. Right ... where you're like, "I love pinot." Yeah. And then somebody comes and brings a gamay- Mm-hmm ... and you go, "What is this?" Mm-hmm. And you're like, "Try it." Yeah. You prob- you m- if you like pinot, you'll probably like this. Yeah. And people, like, take a sip, like, you know, "Hey, that's pretty good." Yeah. And then all of a sudden, they're, they're on some other- Mm-hmm ... total kick. Mm-hmm. Yeah. S- No, there's lots out there, lots to explore. Um, not that I said we were gonna talk about this, but we got about five minutes left. Mm-hmm. Uh, you are one of the few people I know that got to go to the World Cup. Yes. We went to three games. So y- if you just tell me about it. I, I mean, this is just one of those things because, uh, you went... My buddy Jeff Siek went. Yeah. Our mutual- Yeah ... f- good friend Jeff Siek, and I just talked to him yesterday, and I'm like, "So tell me about it," you know? And he loves soccer. Yeah. Oh. He's that guy that gets up at 4:00 in the morning- I know ... like a, like an absolute goon. I think that was the best part was taking Jeff Siek because I know how much of a fan he is, you know? I... By the way, I'm gonna say it to you, you picked the right person. Yeah. Because that's the person that's, like, crying- Right when you walk in, and you're like- Yeah ... "Should I be feeling like this?" Yes. I, he held his emotions together, but it was pretty amazing. I mean, the first game we went to, I went with my partner, Ana. We went to the England and Paraguay game. Okay. And that was amazing from- The, I'd never experienced a World Cup game Okay, this is what I wanna hear about Yeah. Yeah Yeah I had seen a couple matches, but I'd never really paid attention I'm an American- Yeah ... just so you know. Yeah. I- And so I, we went, and I just, this, it, I, I love F1. Most people- Me too ... love F1 now, and that's such an international stage, and I think that that's why people now f- are ... Th- it seems like this World Cup was so much more popular maybe because people tu- have been tuning into F1 too. Yeah I know it's been pop- very popular, but that international stage is just so amazing. And going and- Yeah ... we sat down, and in front of us was- We have the World Series. We're the best. We know, right? In baseball. And then soccer- The world of the United States. The world of the United States. Yes, I know. And, and that's why I wanna hear about this 'cause it's like, the one thing I would say to you is the one thing I fell in love with about the World Cup was seeing, you know, the Tartan Army in Scotland- Yeah coming to the United States, drinking all of our beer- Yeah ... all of these different countries coming here. Yeah And then it felt like, and somebody said it so well, where it felt like all the cousins from around the world- Yeah ... were coming over even though our parents really don't like each other. Right And then all of a sudden they realize, number one, America is amazing. Mm-hmm, yeah. You know, I saw the Japanese guys- They all- ... that went to Buc-ee's- Yeah. ... and lost his mind, right? Or- Those were the best posts. They were fantastic, right? And all of a sudden we as a- Yeah ... as a world did feel c- like- Yeah ... closer together. I, 100%. And we were cheering. Yeah, yeah. So is that what it felt like at a game? It felt exactly like that. The family in front of us was, uh, Paraguay, you know, fans, and, uh, there was a father and a teenage son and a probably a 10 or 12-year-old. And the, when the f- first American goal happened, the f- youngest one started crying, kind of just really- Yeah ... upset. And in his mind, he had no idea about winning and losing particularly- Sure, sure in a world stage. And the middle son was trying to console him, and then w- uh, we're trying to celebrate. At the same time we're g- feeling really bad, you know- Yeah ... because this family is from Paraguay, and we're, they're in the United States. And they're fans of their team, and like, it had this amazing feeling of just am- not amazing, but this big energy of like- defeat and, and- Yeah and winning, and then caring and- Yeah ... consoling. Yeah And like not w- wanting, feeling bad about one thing, but feeling good about another. It is all kinds of emotions. It's, it's the best of the human- It was- ... experience at once ... yeah, it was really wild. And that carried through to all the games. And just going to see the England game, I mean, they have the best chants. Sure. They have the, you know, they have all the great music. Yeah. You know, they, you know, and like the energy of that when they were, you know, singing and stuff, and the whole- Yeah ... stadium feels it. And you're just like, "I'm at an Oasis concert right now." Right. You know? I mean, it was that wild. All, it was an amazing experience. All three games were just incredible. You know, you w- I think we touched on something that, um, you know, I'm always excited about talking to anybody who comes in here, because we wanna know how you found the Valley, why you love it- Yeah ... and how you're making it better. Yeah. Right? And you're definitely doing that on- Yeah multiple levels. Thank you. The beauty of, you know, this conversation, and they just kinda go where they go, but it seems like the overall theme that we've all been discussing is the fact that life is still a very much a massively multiplayer game- Mm-hmm ... with people from around the world. And if I watch it on television, you know, I'm sitting in my couch watching something on TV. Mm-hmm. And hearing about you being at the Cup, you know, World Cup- Mm-hmm ... which kinda comes on our radar every few years. Yeah. And this year, because it was in the United States, it was definitely on our radar. Yeah. There is, there, we have traded so much of our, um, community for convenience- Mm-hmm ... digitally. Mm-hmm. And the things that you're doing with like, you know, Sanding Sun Music, Analog now, uh, Listening Bar, playing things where people are all coming together and really love just kind of being together and having a community experience seems to be like a little bit of a throughput of your life. And I think you're sharing exactly the thing that every single person in this world is desperately screaming for. Yeah. I mean, it, we're still stuck in this weird COVID haze- You're right ... of I'm at home, I leave my house, I go some, I go to work, and then I come back to my house. And that third place, um, Adam Firestone was in here a few months ago, and he goes, "You know, any, for any great community to thrive, you need two things. You need a really great place to get a cup of coffee, and a really great place to get a beer or a glass of wine- Mm-hmm ... after work- Mm-hmm ... and to meet up with someone- Right ... and, and go to that third place." Yeah. And I just wanna say thank you for creating a new third place in, uh, Solvang, and for our community that if you, if you love music, hey, go there. If you like- Yeah ... pizza, hey, go there. Mm-hmm. If you like beer and wine, hey, go there. Yeah. But I'm, I'm personally really excited to go over and just like hang out and, uh, soak it up, man. I can't wait to see you there. Thank you- It'll be great ... so much for coming in. I really appreciate it. Thank you. Anything, uh, this is where you plug everything, so tell us where you are. Tell us where to find it on Instagram. Yeah. Uh, give us the, give us the info Let's see. I mean, my main Instagram is Standingsun, and it kind of does all things of my life. Um, we do have an Instagram for Analog Room. It's analogroomsyv. Um, follow us on both and we'll put out all the information. We'll put out all our schedule and particular stuff on an- the Analog one, and then on mine it might be the music stuff at Standingsun, it might be stuff about Analog Room, might be just going to the World Cup or heading to, heading to Monza for F1 next. Oh, y- jeez, you're killing me. So- Listen, I don't wanna be anyone else in life, but you're running a pretty strong contender here, dude. Um, so everybody, that's been Choppin' It Up with me and John Wright. Yes. Thanks for coming in, John. Uh, every week, uh, tune into Crazy Country. We talk about... We always have a new guest. I try to get a really interesting person every week. Thank you, John, for coming in. Um, but you know what? We live in the Santa Ynez Valley. It's gonna be a beautiful weekend. Go outside. Yeah. Go check out Analog. Go taste some wine. Go eat some good food. Uh, but really everybody go out and make a new friend and be in community. Right. I mean, that's the best possible thing we can do. That's perfect. So you have been listening to Choppin' It Up on 105.9 Crazy Country. Back to your regularly scheduled programming
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Topics Covered in Episode 57
Use these as linked topics on the website:
John Wright
The Analogue Room
Standing Sun Wines
Solvang, California
Santa Ynez Valley
Santa Barbara County Wine
Buellton, California
Vinyl Listening Rooms
Vinyl Records
Hi-Fi Audio
Analogue Music
Full-Album Listening
Record Collecting
Album Artwork
Tube Amplifiers
Guest DJs
Wine and Music Pairings
Santa Ynez Valley Wine Bars
Solvang Restaurants
Solvang Nightlife
Local Santa Barbara County Wineries
Small-Production Wines
Craft Beer
Nonalcoholic Drinks
Focaccia-Style Pizza
Local Farmers Markets
Findlay Farm
Community Gathering Places
The Third Place
Digital Convenience
Human Connection
Architecture and Historic Preservation
Historic Barn Restoration
California Winemaking
Standing Sun Live
Live Music in Buellton
Independent Music Venues
The Revivalists
American Aquarium
Cody Canada
Kathleen Sieck
Tom Curren
Counting Crows
Adam Duritz
The Cure
Echo & the Bunnymen
The Smiths
Jack Johnson
Ryan Bingham
Outlaw Country
Classic Rock
Intergenerational Music Discovery
Japanese Listening Bars
The World Cup
Formula One
Shared Experiences
Santa Ynez Valley Community
Choppin’ It Up with Keith Saarloos
KRAZy Country 105.9
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FAQ About John Wright and The Analogue Room
What is The Analogue Room?
The Analogue Room is a vinyl listening lounge and wine bar in Solvang, California. It combines full-album vinyl listening with local and imported wines, craft beer, nonalcoholic drinks, square pizza, salads, and rotating guest DJs.
Who created The Analogue Room?
The Analogue Room was created by John Wright, the founder and winemaker behind Standing Sun Wines in Buellton. Wright is also a preservation architect, builder, music promoter, and longtime member of the Santa Ynez Valley community.
Where is The Analogue Room located?
The Analogue Room is located at 1693 Mission Drive, Suite D2, Solvang, California 93463, in the Founders Square area of Solvang.
When did The Analogue Room open?
The Analogue Room was established in Solvang in 2026.
What are The Analogue Room’s hours?
The official website currently lists The Analogue Room as open Thursday through Monday from 4:00 p.m. to 10:00 p.m. It is closed Tuesday and Wednesday. Visitors should check the official website or Instagram before traveling because hours and events may change.
Is The Analogue Room a wine-tasting room?
The Analogue Room is more than a traditional tasting room. It is a vinyl lounge, wine bar, beer bar, bottle shop, restaurant, and community listening space. Its focus is on music, intentional listening, food, drinks, and shared experiences.
What kind of music does The Analogue Room play?
The Analogue Room plays complete albums on vinyl and features a wide range of music selected for the time, mood, and atmosphere. Its collection includes classic rock, singer-songwriters, alternative music, outlaw country, independent artists, and unexpected musical discoveries.
Can guests request records at The Analogue Room?
Guests can explore the available records and help guide the evening’s selections. The room is not designed around individual song requests, but guests may suggest albums that can be added to the listening queue.
Does The Analogue Room have live DJs?
Yes. The Analogue Room hosts rotating guest DJs who bring their own musical selections and energy to the space. Current schedules are shared through the venue’s official website and Instagram account.
What food does The Analogue Room serve?
The food menu centers on square, focaccia-style pizza available by the slice or pan, along with simple salads. The menu is intentionally focused and uses local ingredients when practical.
Does The Analogue Room serve local wine?
Yes. The wine list includes small-production Santa Barbara County wineries, including producers that may not operate their own public tasting rooms. It also includes carefully selected imported wines.
Does The Analogue Room offer nonalcoholic drinks?
Yes. The Analogue Room offers a considered zero-proof menu that includes nonalcoholic wines, beers, sodas, and mocktails. The experience is designed around music and community rather than alcohol alone.
Who is John Wright?
John Wright is a preservation architect, contractor, winemaker, music promoter, and entrepreneur. He founded Standing Sun Wines and Standing Sun Live before creating The Analogue Room in Solvang.
What is Standing Sun Wines?
Standing Sun Wines is John Wright’s Santa Barbara County winery and tasting room in Buellton, California. The winery is also known for combining wine, art, and live music through performances by local and nationally touring musicians.
Which musicians have performed at Standing Sun?
Artists discussed during this episode include The Revivalists, American Aquarium, Cody Canada, Kathleen Sieck, and Tom Curren. Standing Sun has hosted an extensive range of independent and touring musicians over the years.
What is a vinyl listening room?
A vinyl listening room is a space designed for intentional music listening. Instead of treating music as background noise, records are selected and played through a dedicated sound system so guests can experience the music, sequencing, artwork, and atmosphere of an album.
What does “third place” mean?
A third place is a community gathering space outside of a person’s home and workplace. Coffee shops, neighborhood bars, tasting rooms, bookstores, restaurants, and listening lounges can serve as third places where people meet and build relationships.
Why are vinyl listening rooms becoming popular?
Vinyl listening rooms offer a physical, social alternative to algorithm-driven streaming. They encourage listeners to slow down, hear complete albums, discover unfamiliar artists, and experience music in the company of other people.
What is Episode 57 of Choppin’ It Up about?
Episode 57 explores John Wright’s journey from architecture and historic preservation to winemaking, live music, and the creation of The Analogue Room. The larger conversation examines vinyl, wine, community, digital convenience, and why people still need meaningful places to gather.
Where can I hear Choppin’ It Up with Keith Saarloos?
Choppin’ It Up with Keith Saarloos is available through major podcast platforms and airs locally on KRAZy Country 105.9, serving the Santa Ynez Valley and Santa Barbara County.
Episode 56: What Horses Know About You Before You Do | Inside Roundbarn Ranch
In Episode 56 of Chopping It Up with Keith Saarloos, Keith sits down with Justine Schreyer Lewin, founder of Roundbarn Ranch and Co., and co-founder Victoria “Tori” Fertitta Mortensen to explore what horses can teach us about being human. Located on a 70-acre horse ranch in California’s Santa Ynez Valley, Roundbarn Ranch and Co. is a nonprofit organization offering non-clinical Equine-Guided Education experiences designed to develop self-awareness, authenticity, confidence, communication, trust, leadership, and a deeper connection with ourselves and others.
Keith, Justine, and Tori discuss how horses perceive human emotions, body language, energy, intention, and the moments when what we show externally does not match what we feel inside. They explain the difference between Equine-Guided Education and equine therapy, what happens during Roundbarn’s ground-based horse experiences, and why no previous horse experience is required. The conversation also explores grief, personal loss, rediscovery, boundaries, leadership, corporate retreats, nonprofit accessibility, and the remarkable ability horses have to offer immediate, honest, and completely nonjudgmental feedback.
More than a conversation about horses, this episode examines the masks people wear, the stories we tell ourselves, and what can happen when we slow down, disconnect from the noise, and allow ourselves to be truly seen. It is a powerful look at the horse-human connection, the founding of Roundbarn Ranch and Co., and the lessons these extraordinary animals can teach us about authenticity, joy, healing, purpose, and being human.
Learn more about Roundbarn Ranch and Co.:
https://www.roundbarnranchandco.com/
HEARD ON KRAZY COUNTRY 105.9:
https://www.krazfm.com/
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WHO IS ROUNDBARN RANCH AND CO.?
Roundbarn Ranch and Co. is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization in California’s Santa Ynez Valley that uses the horse-human connection to help people develop greater self-awareness, authenticity, confidence, communication skills, and practical tools for navigating life.
Founded by Justine Schreyer Lewin and co-founded by Victoria “Tori” Fertitta Mortensen, Roundbarn offers non-clinical Equine-Guided Education experiences at a 70-acre horse ranch on California’s Central Coast.
Roundbarn was born from Justine and Tori’s shared experiences with grief, loss, personal transformation, and the search for a different approach to self-discovery. Justine began her career as a clinical social worker before returning to her childhood connection with horses. Tori brought decades of experience in brand strategy, storytelling, and turning ideas into practical systems.
Together, they developed what has become known as The Roundbarn Way—a philosophy and experiential learning process inspired by horses, ranch values, the natural world, and the lessons people discover when they become fully present.
What Is Equine-Guided Education?
Equine-Guided Education, also called EGE, is an experiential learning approach that uses guided interaction with horses to help participants develop personal and professional skills.
Unlike traditional classroom education, Equine-Guided Education allows participants to learn through direct experience. Horses respond immediately to human body language, emotions, energy, intention, boundaries, and authenticity. Their responses can help people recognize patterns in the way they communicate, lead, build trust, manage emotions, make decisions, and relate to others.
As prey animals, horses are exceptionally aware of their surroundings. They notice subtle changes that humans often overlook—including the moments when a person’s outward behavior does not match what they are feeling internally.
A horse cannot be impressed by a résumé, job title, reputation, or carefully constructed story.
It responds to the person actually standing in front of it.
That honest and nonjudgmental response is what makes the horse-human connection such a powerful tool for self-awareness and personal growth.
Is Roundbarn Ranch Equine Therapy?
No. Roundbarn Ranch and Co. does not provide psychotherapy or clinical equine therapy.
Roundbarn provides non-clinical, future-focused Equine-Guided Education centered on self-discovery, experiential learning, and skill development. The experience may feel deeply meaningful or therapeutic to participants, but it is not presented as mental-health treatment and does not replace care from a licensed medical or mental-health professional.
Maintaining that distinction is an important part of Roundbarn’s work.
What Happens During a Roundbarn Experience?
Roundbarn experiences use guided, ground-based activities such as:
Connecting with and observing horses
Grooming and caring for horses
Groundwork and communication exercises
Boundary and trust-building activities
Collaborative problem-solving
Personal reflection and documentation
Exploring emotional and behavioral patterns
Developing practical tools for future situations
Participants do not ride the horses, and no previous horse or ranch experience is required.
The objective is not to become a better rider. It is to learn more about being human through the remarkably honest feedback horses provide.
Roundbarn experiences can support the development of:
Self-awareness
Authenticity
Emotional awareness
Confidence
Trust
Communication
Personal boundaries
Leadership skills
Teamwork
Decision-making
Resilience
Greater connection with oneself and others
Who Can Attend Roundbarn Ranch?
Roundbarn’s guiding principle is:
“Not for everyone, but for anyone.”
Not everyone is interested in horses, ranch life, dirt, or personal self-exploration. But Roundbarn believes the experience should be accessible to anyone who feels called to explore what horses can teach people about being human.
As a nonprofit organization, Roundbarn offers partial and full financial sponsorships to qualified participants who might otherwise be unable to attend. Revenue from ranch experiences and tax-deductible donations helps provide access to people regardless of their ability to pay.
Who Is Justine Schreyer Lewin?
Justine Schreyer Lewin is the founder of Roundbarn Ranch and Co.
A mother, wife, philanthropist, former clinical social worker, and lifelong horsewoman, Justine returned to her childhood passion for horses while searching for greater purpose and direction in her own life. Transformative experiences involving horses renewed her belief in the power of the horse-human connection.
Justine and her family eventually relocated to a 70-acre equine ranch in the Santa Ynez Valley. That property became Roundbarn Ranch—a place where horses, humans, land, and learning come together.
Who Is Victoria “Tori” Fertitta Mortensen?
Victoria “Tori” Fertitta Mortensen is the co-founder of Roundbarn Ranch and Co.
Following the sudden loss of her mother in 2022, Tori began searching for a different way to understand grief and move forward. Her search eventually led her to Justine, and their shared experiences became part of the foundation for Roundbarn.
With a professional background in brand strategy, storytelling, language, and systems development, Tori helped transform their ideas into a practical educational model designed to help people turn personal discoveries into meaningful action.
What Is The Roundbarn Way?
The Roundbarn Way is Roundbarn Ranch and Co.’s philosophy for navigating human emotions and experiences through lessons inspired by horses, ranch life, the land, and authentic connection.
It combines the horses, humans, environment, experiences, and practical lessons of Roundbarn into a process participants can use beyond the ranch. The goal is not simply to have a memorable encounter with a horse. It is to leave with insights and tools that can be applied to relationships, leadership, communication, grief, change, personal growth, and everyday life.
In Episode 56 of Chopping It Up with Keith Saarloos, Justine and Tori join Keith Saarloos to discuss the founding of Roundbarn Ranch and Co., the difference between Equine-Guided Education and equine therapy, how horses interpret human behavior, and what these remarkable animals can teach us about authenticity, trust, grief, joy, leadership, and being human.
Learn more about Roundbarn Ranch and Co.:
https://www.roundbarnranchandco.com/Explore Equine-Guided Education and Roundbarn experiences:
https://www.roundbarnranchandco.com/enterthebarnRead the story of Roundbarn Ranch:
https://www.roundbarnranchandco.com/our-storyFollow Roundbarn Ranch and Co. on Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/roundbarn_ranch/ -
Hey, everybody. You are listening to Crazy Country 105.9, and it is 10:00 AM on a Saturday morning, and that means it is time for Chopping it Up with Keith Saarloos of Saarloos and Sons in Los Olivos, California. Yep, we're the winery that sells cupcakes, so bring your kids on by and hang out on the porch anytime you wanna go. Uh, today, we talk about a lot of things on this show, but specifically, we talk about the people who found this, uh, found the valley, people who love living here, and what they do. Because as you drive on 246, 154, 101, uh, you are passing unbelievable stories going the other direction, and this is where we stop and spend about a half hour on a Saturday morning and tell everyone's little story So today we have a very special group of people, two to be exact. Uh, state your names for the record. I am Justine Schreyer Lewin, and I'm the founder of Round Barn Ranch and Company. And I am Victoria Fertitta Mortensen, also known as Tori around these parts. Yep. And I am a co-founder of Round Barn Ranch and Company. So let's get right into it. Let's chop it up. Tell us about Round Barn and what you guys do. So Round Barn is actually, uh, the result of the ultimate equine guided journey that I went on myself. Okay. Uh, I lost my mom in, uh, February of 2023- Sorry ... after. Thank you. It is a terrible club. Mm. It is a terrible club. Yep. Um, one that, yes, I hope fewer and fewer have to be members of. But, um, it was a, a pretty difficult, uh, four years. Her last four years of life, I stopped working to care for her and, um, I had to make all the medical and final decisions- Mm ... about ending her life. And, uh, I tend to be a very upbeat and positive, uh, person, and that, that put me in a hard place. Yeah. Uh, I went through my own process of trying to rediscover, reconnect with myself- Mm-hmm after that time, and that led me, uh, to horses- Mm ... of all things. There's a longer story to it, of course, but- There always is, right? But i- in short, it led me, um, back to reconnect with horses as a way of reconnecting with myself. And of course, there's no better place to find horses and horse life than here in Santa Ynez and in the valley. Absolutely. It is the root of this valley. I mean, people talk about grapes and wine and things like that, but really what this place began as was cattle, horses, race horses, and people on the back of a horse. I mean, Ronald Reagan, top of the hill. Yep. Absolutely. He found that place because it was the perfect place to go ride a horse. Yeah. Definitely. Speaking of Reagan real quick- ... and then we- we'll get to the point, but we did actually, we're right down the hill from- Yeah ... from the old Western White House, right? Yep. And we did actually, from the people that we purchased our ranch from, when they were remodeling in 2021 and 2022, found the old switchboard is the story for the Western White House- Let's- Oh my gosh on the property of- Really? ... Round Barn Ranch. Do you have it? No. Oh. Yeah, it was before, it was before our time. Got it. Our time's pretty new. Yes, that's true. Um, anyways, back to Round Barn. So, so that's- Sorry. This is what we do. I mean, no, this is amazing. There's a million little stories. A million little stories- There are so many tucked into Round Barn. That's actually what the whole, the whole point- That's right ... of the show is I wanna hear everything. Yeah. Yeah. So in 30 minutes. Right. Right, exactly. You know, tell me everything you can in 30 minutes. Exactly, and that's the danger is- Yeah ... because we can go tangent with you for hours. Oh, yeah. For sure. Right? And we love it. Uh, yeah, we feel really lucky to get to do what we do. When Justine came to this area, uh, we had been here, my husband and I, and my, and our family, we had been here for, um, about six years, and we had followed the horses as well, which is kind of interesting. My husband, um, is in sort of the business of equine medicine. So we found ourselves in this valley, um, following the equine industry- Yeah. ... just like, uh, Justine had done as well. And, um, when we found one another, when I found Justine, um, I had just lost my mother as well. Mm. In very different circumstances, different relationships, a different, um- You know, sort of a different story, but we were in a similar place, and Justine and I say we were, we were operating at the same, uh, frequency- Mm-hmm but with very different skill sets. Yeah. And we found ourselves in the same place. And she had a beautiful property and had a vision for being able to share what had worked for her to process the challenge of loss. Yep. Um, and the way that she had transformed her life by coming up to the valley, uh, she had a vision for sharing that in a, in a nonprofit setting so that it... Something that, equine-guided anything- Mm-hmm ... can be incredibly cost prohibitive, but it had been so powerful and transformative in her life and, and in mine as well, in, in a, in different ways. Um, she wanted to share it with everyone. And I said- Yeah ... "The things that you're thinking, the, the things that you're saying, the vision you have, is, those, that's the answers to a lot of the questions that I ha- I mean, I'd dropped out of therapy three times. I was a quitter. I'd failed at therapy. It wasn't working for me. Um, and I said, "I think the things that you're saying- No, you need a different type of therapy. Well, that's what I- Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I had someone challenge that the other day and say, "What, how does that make you a failure, Tori? 'Cause you- Sure. Mm-hmm ... quit therapy." And I was like, "Well, okay, clearly maybe I need to find therapy if I say I'm a qui- No, you, you quit talking and started riding. That's, that's right. I did. I quit. There's nothing wrong with that. Exactly. We quit talking and we started to... Uh, and the minute we started to put Justine's vision, like putting her thoughts into things and share what we were each experiencing in our loss and challenges, um, things came together and our thoughts became things, and those things replaced therapy for me personally. So, uh, me, me being the person who's sitting o- uh, uh, listening to this on the radio right now. Mm-hmm. What, what does Round Barn... I mean, Round Barn's a great name. I like it. Thanks. I love it. But w- like- All one word. All one word. All one word. Thank you. Mm-hmm. Um, w- what does Round Barn do? Yeah. So, I, so I came, like Tori said, with that vision to open the doors wider to equine-guided learning. And so what we, we call it equine-guided education. We talk about, um, helping people. Uh, we invite them to come for, in a m- number of different ways, experiences, which are multi-day, um, experiences where they get to stay at the ranch. Kind of a retreat style that- Yep ... you typically see. Yep. So we offer retreats. We offer one-day workshops. Um, and that all of those are centered around the horse-human connection. Mm-hmm. And what can horses teach us about being human. Hmm. Which is an awful lot. Yeah. And the way horses teach, it's, once you see it happen, you can't un- you can't forget it. So what's the difference between- a dude ranch- Mm-hmm where people are just coming out to go ride a horse- Mm-hmm ... and what you guys do. So we've written a proprietary curriculum. Mm. Right? Yeah. And we, that's part of, that's part of our creative journey and our story. Uh, we- We, we, we knew that when we, when we came together and wanted to share how horses had been impactful in our lives, we had certain skills that were working really well for us, right? Okay. Um, a dude ranch, you're gonna learn a lot of skills. Sure. They will help you approach challenge in a different way. Yeah. We're also teaching a lot of those same sort of, it's more like the values of the ranch is kind of- Sure ... what we teach instead of maybe the chores and the skills that you might get to experience at a t- typical dude ranch. But we use the horse-human connection as a teacher to help sort of reinforce lessons that we've learned based on our own values, based on ranch values. Uh, and you know, a lot of people have, have gone through different experiences to try to work through, uh, challenges or, uh, put words around their emotions. But- Yeah ... the minute you add a horse, you're, it changes everything. What... So Tory made a joking reference to her being a three-time therapy dropout. Yeah. Um, I am a therapist by training, right? Really? So my professional background is as a clinical social worker. The plot thickens. Right. Right. Which is why we work so well. Okay. So it's, so- You didn't drop out. You just got, like, personalized therapy. That's right. There you go. I just chose the best best friend possible. And I also, right, came here to the Valley wanting to, uh, use those skills but in a different way. Yeah. Um, it, one of our, one of the main principles is that sometimes therapy is about looking back, and when you're at Round Barn, of course things from the past may come up when we're talking about what's happening now. But we're really about where are you now and where do you wanna be- Yeah ... going forward? And so we've established the curriculum around that future focus idea. Now, what does a session look like or a lesson look like? We call them lessons. Uh, what do lessons look like? It's all groundwork, so you don't need to have any horse experience, or you can have a ton of horse experience, and we've had a great opportunity to have guests of both, you know, of all ends of the spectrum, right? Yeah. And we've heard both, "Wow, I never knew horses had this ability"- And we've also heard, uh, "Wow, I've been with horses my entire life, and I never knew that they could connect with humans and teach us in this way." So n- as you've been talking about it, I'm kind of painting a picture in my head. Mm-hmm. And maybe we've glossed over it. Mm-hmm. But, you know, no one's ever thought I was the smartest person in town. Um- I think that might not be true. Hey, specifically, um, your outreach is to people that have gone through some sort of trauma in their life. Mm-mm. Nah. No? Okay. No. We don't think- Is this just- Yeah, so- So it's for anybody. This is for- It's for anybody in fact, that's our mo- Did you read ahead, Keith? No. Uh-huh. I'm asking questions- Yeah ... 'cause I am interested. Because w- Yeah. Yeah ... when I, when I heard therapy, when I heard loss- Yeah, uh-huh ... when I heard those things, and then what you're doing in response to it. Yeah. Right? So I think it was a g- the loss was a tool that inspired us- Ah, yes to create something powerful. Okay. Got it. Right? Yep. We, there were certain things that were working for us in our life, uh, in our lives, and then certain things that were not, just were not coming together. And we had the skills independently, like, "We should be able to process this a little maybe," you know? Yeah. Why can't I do this? Quote, unquote- Yeah ... "better." Right. Mm-hmm. You know? Right. Like, we had the skills and tools, we thought. Um, but we weren't necessarily using what was working- Yeah ... in order to improve what wasn't. Understood. And that's what Round Barn, w- the, the, it's a set of interchangeable tools. It is not therapy, but it's therapeutic, right? Great way to put it. Yeah. And, uh- Great way to put it, because- And our motto is, "We're not, this is not for everybody." Everybody doesn't wanna, you know, get in the dirt, g- go to a ranch, play with an 1,100 pound animal, talk about the things they're challenged, I mean- Who doesn't wanna do this? I know. Some people don't. This sounds like the dream, right? Boots and jeans- Yep ... is not for everybody. It's my dream- I know ... but it's not for everyone. So it's n- we say it's not for everyone. Perfect. But we're for anyone. So- Anyone who wants to do this- Mm-hmm ... regardless of w- uh, particularly if financial barriers- Sure ... is what's your hang up. Yeah. We wanna remove those. Yep. Well, that's amazing. Yeah. So someone gets in contact with you. Mm-hmm. Hears this on the radio and says, "Hey, this sounds... I wanna, I wanna touch horses. I wanna, you know, get dirty. I wanna be a part of this." Yeah. Learn about myself and- Y- ... and learn about horses and be part of a, a community. Yeah. And I think what you're really saying is, people that have a desire to make a connection with an animal- Mm-hmm ... and say, um, "I've never done this before- Mm-hmm ... but I've watched it, I've watched Yellowstone," or, "I've- ... I've always like, I've read Louis L'Amour novels," or just, you know, those kind of things- Mm but never really been on the back of a horse. Mm-hmm. What does the first day look like? Yeah. So, um, a, of a, a multi-day experience? Sure. So real quick, we'll break it down. Yeah. Uh, I wanna give an outline, and then we'll go into the de- details. But so our multi-day experiences, uh, you can sign up for on our website, right? And those we call our seasonal experiences. And the website is... RoundBarnRanchandCo.com Yeah. It's a- Continue ... it's a long one. All the- ... all the words writ- all the letters of the words written out. Okay. Um, so yeah, you can go to our website and you can book what we call one of our seasonal experiences. Okay? Uh, or We also offer at least four times a year a one-day workshop that's completely fee-free for a local, uh, nonprofit organization. Mm-hmm. So they bring- We recently, we were lucky enough to recently have out the senior center in Solvang. Oh, they're the best. They're so awesome. They're the best. They're the best. What a group. We had the absolute best day. Yeah. And that's the perfect example of a, we really wanna cross cultural barriers, cross socioeconomic barriers, and invite people to experience the horse-human connection. You know, I'd even challenge, you said people who wanna connect with animals, but, uh, it's also people who wanna connect with themselves. Yeah. Yeah. Right? That's all the things. And we use the animal as a conduit for you to connect with you, right? Yeah, you guys are a n- well, I think one of the barriers always to... And not to step on, I wanna hear the rest of it. Yeah. But a lot of people it's like, where do I even start? Yeah. Yeah. Right? And it sounds like you're answering that question. We're the, yes. We're the perfect place to start. Yes, we're trying to answer that question. So, so for nonprofits, right, they can bring their group- Which is awesome. Thank you ... out for a day, completely fee-free, right? We do at least four of those a year. Then there are also others who might wanna book, maybe it's a corporate, uh, experience. You know, they can book- Yep ... for one day. Um, and our multi-night retreats experiences, which are pretty special because we're gr- blessed with an incredible property and amazing accommodations that we've taken a lot of care and thought into cultivating as a beautiful place for people to come and rest and restore. It, it really is a beautiful place. Thank you. And we're, it's, so the, the ranch comes alive when we're hosting people. Sure. Uh, we love our team. We call them our humans. Like, our team is the best, right? We love our humans. Mm. Um, but when we have visit, like- That is, by the way, that is the most horse girl thing I've ever heard in my life. Right? Right. The humans are over there. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. We love our humans, but, but we, this ra- the ranch, the land, you know, the land in this valley- Absolutely ... is, you know, Round Barn Ranch isn't anything if, uh, we, i- if it's not the horses, the humans, the land, and the lessons- Yeah ... that we're telling you about, right? Um, but when we're h- when the land is hosting guests, overnight in particular, it is so s- we can have, you know, up to, you know, probably about 10 people. We can s- Yep ... butts in beds, we call it, you know, um, overnight. And it, it's a really special way to disconnect- Yeah ... and reconnect. I'm always so surprised by how many people, like when we give vineyard tours on Saturday mornings and things like that- Mm-hmm where you point up at a hawk, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Because they have- Oh my gosh, yeah ... maybe never seen a hawk or a, a, a turkey vulture or whatever, right? We- 'Cause we get spoiled in this valley just by looking around and we're like, "Of course it's a hawk." Other people, they come and they're like, "Is, is, where does that live?" And you're like, "Here." Right. Right? Exactly. We love to tell the story. Tori and I are, yeah, Tori and I are both, um, super, uh, pretty driven, you know, uh, c- people, right? And I also say, "Hey, listen, remember, we don't even have to be that good because just being here on this land with these animals gives us such a pr- Yes such an assist." Sure. Keith, you'll love this. Do you- However, we, we also- Yeah ... obviously strive to be- Of course ... incredible at what we do and, and really thoughtful about it. We had a group, and, um- Oh, oh, t- you'll love this, Keith. She, one of the, one of our guests who, uh, phenomenal, all... We're, we're so lucky to have just the coolest, most interesting people, um, come stay with us and visit, and she said, uh, they... She asked, "Um, do you guys pipe the frog sounds in at night?" Of course. Thought we had added it to, like, the Bose- Right ... surround sound outdoors. We were like, "No, ma'am, those came with the land." Yes. And sometimes they're so loud that Tori- Yeah ... has a hard time falling asleep. They're like, "Shut up" That's amazing. Yeah. Thought we piped in the sounds. That's the kind of disconnect people have right now from the land, and animals, and themselves- Mm-hmm ... and other humans, and, you know, and, and learning, right? We're so disconnected that you think we must have piped in the sounds. Right. Well, you guys come at the perfect time. I mean, if you think six years ago when people were locking their houses for two years- Mm. Mm-hmm ... right? And people more, and more, and more have taken, uh, convenience over community, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. And h- live in a neighborhood- Mm-hmm ... over the hill, LA, whatever- Mm-hmm ... and they, you know, have, drive by a park- Mm-hmm and maybe that's the biggest slab of grass that they see- Mm-hmm ... all week. And then they come up here to the beautiful valley- Mm-hmm ... and there's a difference between being a tourist and being a traveler, and then they- Mm-hmm ... travel to your property, get out of the car, you know, um, probably still lock their car- Mm-hmm which we always think is funny, right? Mm-hmm. It's always funny. And, and walk out, and greeted by you, see a horse. Mm-hmm. What's... Like, again, what's day- Mm-hmm ... like, day one, what does it feel like? Yeah, absolutely. So, so I wanna say it's also our home. So it's where my family and I live. Um, so they are welcomed to our home. Mm-hmm. Every person that comes, we really take that seriously. They are a member of our, of our family, right? Of our broader family, especially, of course, the incredible team we have that works with us, and all the people who come and visit. So when they arrive, we get them settled in. It's, it's, it's pretty much a five-star luxury resort type of vibe, to be honest. We call it rustic luxury. It's still a working ranch. There's gonna be a spider or two here or there. Right. Right? But- And frogs. Perfect ... and, and frogs. Right. We don't mind at all. And we have these sensational people on our team, our h- our sensational humans that greet our guests and, you know, get them a stack, get them settled in their accommodation where they're gonna be staying. Uh, shortly thereafter, we introduce them to the land of the ranch, right? We lead them on a tour and tell them a little bit about how we got here, and show them around so that they can get their bearings, so that they can feel safe, they can feel welcomed, and, and home, right? Mm-hmm. Um, the, what we do in session, our first session starts right after a r- after that tour. Yeah. And- I can i- I can imagine people being eager to get going. Yeah. Yeah. It, it's great. It's a lot of fun. So, uh, again, it starts from, it starts with us, right? It starts with us sharing vulnerably about, about our experiences and where we are so that others feel safe to share about where they are. We generally, depends on who's coming, but we have several different tools, as Tori said, that are interchangeable. Yeah, it, basically we built a, a sort of a, a, a filing cabinet of lessons. Yeah. And if you stay for a multi-night experience, we've got seven lessons over four days, right? And in each lesson, you learn a tool and how to use that tool to navigate challenge. And we give the f- Can you give us an example? Yeah, absolutely. Mm-hmm. So for instance, um, authenticity. You, that's a kind of a buzzword sometimes now. You're like, "Just be authentic. Be yourself," right? Right. Well, but how many of us know what that even really means, right? So we, um, using the horses sort of as teachers who are really the ultimate mirrors, right? We start to ask people to ask questions of themselves. Like, what is it that makes you feel like, um, you're the one people come to for that thing, right? Like, we start asking really s- subtle questions that help people get to the heart of who they are, right? Mm. Well, people usually come to me f- because they know there's gonna be laughter. People usually come to me because they know there's gonna be, uh, you know, insight or... And you start to sort of whittle away at what it is that you w- is authentic to you. And then we use the horses to sort of help you, help mirror that and how to use it, um, how to use what is authentic to you to live a life that feels authentic. Hmm. We offer equine education in, as part of every tool and every lesson. So in authenticity, we talk about how horses really are, as prey animals- Immediately present oriented. So they're not thinking about the past and they're not thinking about the future, and they're not judging you, right? They're just there and showing up, and they respond based on what you bring to them. Sure. Right? So if you're there, it, it's not that you can't have fear or you can't be nervous around them. That's fine. Just own it. Yeah. Right? If you just acknowledge that you're, you know, you're feeling a little nervous, whatever, the horse will respond and will actually kind of settle themselves- Totally in order to come and greet you. But if you're there holding your fear and containing it, and having it all wrapped up and trying to put on a happy face, the horse will be antsy, 'cause they're, they'll, they notice. You, you brought up a very interesting point. Like, one of the first lessons, you know, anybody gets on a horse is, the horse will just become whatever you are. Mm-hmm. And if you get on the horse, and you settle in, and you real- you're relaxed, you take these deep breaths- Mm-hmm ... and then all of a sudden you'll feel the horse start taking these deep breaths. Mm-hmm. And it becomes like you're saying, this horse-human connection, which I, I wanna talk even more about- Mm because I think it's so glossed over. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Like, people are usually so goal-oriented- Mm-hmm ... that they m- they miss the, the connection of, like, getting on top of a horse, and I think the people who really love to ride and, and, and are, uh, just enjoy it as a p- not, I won't say it as a pastime, but as a tool- Mm-hmm of their life. When they're, however they are, the horse is. Yeah. Yeah. And when you get on and you're just riding, and you kinda settle into it, you, you, you're not thinking about the future, and like you're saying, you're not thinking about the past. You're just kind of in the moment going- Mm ... "Hey, isn't this great?" And that sometimes becomes what's so addictive about it. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And I do, I wanna clarify one thing- Mm ... 'cause when you say get on a horse- Yeah ... that's an amazing experience. And we do offer an optional trail ride, um, for everyone who comes. Got it. It does. And we, we intentionally try to take that w- take the barrier down even another level- Hmm where you don't have to be ready to get on a horse. Yeah. You k- honestly- Just be around the horse ... just have to be in their presence. I can, a good example is what Johnny taught me. So we have our, sort of our mascot horse, sort of our- Mm-hmm ... our, what do you call him? You call it- He's the boss of the ranch He's the boss. He's the boss of the ranch, right? There's always one. Mm-hmm. He's aloof. He, uh, g- he s- kinda reminds me of Johnny Castle, like- Sure ... from Dirty Dancing. When, when you're in with him, you are his, you know, his heart and soul, and he will romance you till the end. But until he's ready, Johnny's gonna teach you a lot about yourself, right? Mm. We talk about what do the horses teach us about being human. Uh, when we were writing our program, we put ourselves through the paces. Uh, we, we went through each lesson, each tool, with each horse, trying to figure out the best way to help use the horses to teach these lessons. And Justine sent me, we call it take it to the inner circle, right? Take it to the corral. Justine sent me to the inner circle with Johnny, and Johnny didn't wanna be there. Truth is, maybe I didn't wanna be there, right? Sure. Johnny didn't wanna be there. And I said, "Can we just let Johnny go and just go through the session without..." And she was like, "Absolutely not. No way." You know? Yeah. Uh, 'cause I felt like Johnny wasn't in it. He wasn't in. Um, and she said, "What is bothering you so bad?" And I said, "Well, I just hate to see him in here," w- what I was perceiving- Yeah ... as him being controlled. Yep. And she said Well, does that come up in your... Do you try to control other things in your life? Hmm. What, what would, what do you wish Johnny was doing right now? And I was like, "Just let him run." And she goes, "Huh. Would that be a helpful tool for you to use in your own life, is just let them run?" Mm. And I was like, right? Yeah. And sure, how many people had tried to teach me that my issues w- or my, my tendency to want to control things, um, is, could be problematic and could be holding people back. It took Johnny- Hmm ... to teach me, and that's groundwork. I didn't get on him. Yeah. Yeah. He's just standing in the room with me. Johnny. And then we got to, and then we got to have you have an opportunity to take his halter off- That's right ... and see how he responded. Hmm. And, which was altogether different. Right. Yeah. Right? So it's, and everything is truly customized because it's whatever each individual brings. And we say, some people may come with something, right? They might be grieving, right? Or they might be, um, anticipating a change, uh, in job or a move. They might be. But then other people come and they say, "Oh, no, I'm just coming," right? "Just to learn and to-" Someone just told me to come. Right? "I'm coming as a, I'm coming with a friend." Right. Everybody has something that they're going to be able to learn, and that the horses are gonna show you and reflect to you, even if it's- Giving people a little more love and compassion, or even if it's just slowing down. Slowing down. Mm. Just taking the time. It sounds like exactly what you're talking about with the mirroring and the, the human-horse connection, where you might not even know what you're bringing in. No. 100%. Most people don't. 100- We've had, we had... This is a super powerful statement. Uh, we had three friends come, had been friends for 15 years, came together. Their session had a total of six people in their, in their, in their retreat group, right? Mm-hmm. But the three of them had known each other for 15 years, sat next to each other every day at sports, and they said, "These last three days are the most impactful s- days in the last 15 years. We learned more in the last three days about each other than we learned in the first 15 years combined." And one of the women had an fantastic experience with a horse, and she said, "I had no idea I was gonna talk about this." Mm. " I had no idea I was gonna talk about this." Her two friends knew what she was coming for, 'cause so-and-so is dealing with such-and-such, and that's really tricky. Mm-hmm. Didn't even come up. Mm. It's a really fascinating way for people to connect with themselves, when you put a horse in their presence who is mirroring their energy and asking them to be present. You know, it's like when you white-knuckle a ride with your kid. Your kid wants to ride the rollercoaster- Yeah. ... and you're like, "Oh, it's g- this is great." "Follow me." "This is great. This is great. Yeah." Eh, but your, and your kid's like, "Cool, this is great," and they buy it. Yeah. Forget it. A horse doesn't buy it. Mm. A horse won't buy it, so it won't let you white-knuckle your way through a conversation about yourself, especially if Justine is there facilitating the energy a little bit betw- or maybe not. Recognizing. I won't say facilitating. Sure. She's there recognizing the energy a little bit, and I'm there recognizing what words are coming up for people, and noting those for them so that they can hear them back after they've walked out of this connection experience, where we really want them to be present. We don't want them to be thinking about, "What, what did I just say?" Or... We really want them to be present. This is very sneaky therapy. It is. Mm, super sneaky. So sneaky. Therapeutic. Therapeutic. Therapeutic. Excuse me. Yeah. Yeah. And we do... And honestly, listen, I, I do say, I would, I... Training is a therapist. But this is why I wanted to have you guys. Training. Yeah. Right? But, and so it doesn't have to be a dirty word. Mm-hmm. And for s- a lot of people, the only reason, you know, we really don't want people to have come with these preconceived notions of, what is therapy, what has it meant to them, what are all the attachments- Mm ... because this is not what it is. Yeah. So that's why we, we steer away from that word. Well, therapy has a goal, right? Right. Oh, absolutely. And what you guys are providing is an opportunity. Absolutely. We say this is not about... You know, you're gonna... We want it to be very future-focused. We want, we really wanted people to be able to document- Mm-hmm the things that they discover, right? But also, we repeat time and time again- We're not etching this on your tombstone you don't have to write down a list of three values that you're gonna, you know, that are, they're gonna tattoo on your arm it's about the process of asking yourself Mm. Have I thought about what I value in the last five years, in the last 10 years, ever? Yeah. Right? At this point in my life, have I thought about, um, what guiding questions are really important to me? Mm. It's, it's about the process of asking yourself the question and then adding an element that is not easily found everywhere, a horse And letting that horse be the teacher. So we have about five minutes left. Okay. And one of the things I wanna know from you guys, 'cause it sounds like a lot of people will show up for a, a specific reason. Maybe, maybe they're dealing with something, maybe they're not. Maybe they're just coming for a great time. Yeah. Right? Mm-hmm. A- and you guys are welcoming to everyone. 100%. Absolutely. Perfect. But your goal, if you will- Mm-hmm ... or maybe a goal or a unintend- unintended consequence or an un- unintended, uh, benefit- Mm ... of the Round Barn experience- Mm-hmm ... is you guys are coming into this from a slightly different way, which is most people it's like, "Okay, we're gonna get you, put your, your foot over here. We're gonna get you to go through this." Mm-hmm. "We're gonna get you to da, da, da, da, da." Mm-hmm. And it's goal-oriented. Mm. Right. And it sounds so much more, and that's why I wanted to have you guys on, 'cause I know what you guys are doing is very, very unique and very, very special, and it's ... And in some ways somewhat hard to explain. Very hard to explain. It's so hard to explain. We just ask people to trust. And, and lots of people- ... have come to us because their friend said, "Just trust me." Yeah. Yeah. " Just trust me." Yes. That's honestly been- "Pack your boots and jeans and just trust me." Or they sent... We've got an organization from, coming from a school. Their leadership team, right, is coming and we're gonna, they're gonna spend the day with us in preparation for their, um, strategic planning meetings and stuff- Yeah ... going into the year. Um, so like they'll just t- somebody will tell the team, "Just take your team." Yeah. " Take your team to Round Barn. Don't ask a lot of questions. Just wear your boots and jeans and show up." Yeah. And that, and, you know, one of the, you said there's something... We come from a place of joy. Yeah. We want, we knew that was one of our, uh, the primary things, and when Justine shared with me her vision for it being a joyful experience, not one of these beat you up, tear you down to build you back up kinda things, right? Yeah. Not a sweat lodge. Nope. S- not a sweat lodge, right? Got it. W- she knew, and her vision for joy stuck out to me, and we made it part of the brand, so much so that it's, it's one of our tools, right? Yeah. Using joy as a tool. Mm-hmm. What's your favorite, quote-unquote, "breakthrough"- Hmm ... that comes to mind when you- Oh think about somebody coming and just experiencing Round Barn and everything you guys have to offer? That's like asking, "Who's your favorite child?" Mm-hmm. Well, my oldest. Yeah. Right, right, right. She is real awesome. Although, no, I know your younger one. Yeah. He's pretty cool, too. No, no, no, no. I like the, I like the- It depends on the day. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Totally. We have so many. Uh, I'll, I'll say one of my ultimate favorites, uh, was seeing somebody who came, uh, actually to process some, some grief, uh, that was unexpected. And in the time that she started sharing, she kept saying, "I feel" you know, she kept touching her throat. Mm-hmm. And I said, "Is there, is there something there?" You know, "It's just stuck, right? It's just stuck." And the horse that was with her started audibly moaning- Mm ... and moo- you know, making noise. Um- Mm ... and I said, "I know this is crazy. I know it sounds a little weird." Mm-hmm. "But can, what, can we try to mimic what the horse is doing?" And we we both sat in the dirt and started making those sounds. Mm-hmm. Simultaneously, all the other horses who were in, um, the corral with us- Mm-hmm ... started making the exact same- Mm ... sound. Uh, and it was just this incredible moment of seeing this person release something that was so deep and profound that they had been carrying around, and the, the entire chorus of horses, um, kind of carrying that through and lifting her up. Mm. Um, and then after that happened, the horse who was right next to her with her laid down, which is pretty unusual- Very, very odd ... for horses- Yes ... to lay down when a human is present. That's a lot of trust. Laid down and, and honestly nearly went to sleep, right? Mm. It was like, "And now you can rest." Mm. That was a powerful one. Yeah. But there are so many different- So many, yeah ... uh, you can- I mean, I, you know, I can use myself as an example. Yeah. Because I, a- and that's my one with Johnny, right? Yeah. That was huge for me. And, and recognizing that what I thought was a value was actually a limiting belief. Um, another, uh, fantastic one I've seen is, uh, in fact, it happened in the last 24 hours. Mm. Seeing a horse lick the boot of someone who needed to get moving. Hmm. Right? It, um, and that was her pers- you know, we don't say, "If a horse licks your shoe, it's because he wants you to." Sure. You know, Justine is real careful to say, "What's that mean to you?" Right? Yeah. "We're noticing this." Sometimes, you know, um, but for someone to know they need to get moving, right? Mm-hmm. I think- It's fascinating ... I wanted to have you guys on for a bunch of different reasons, but, uh, you know, Round Barn is, is doing something very unique and special. And I think you, I know both of you and, and I know how m- how deeply your hearts are in this. And one of the things that has, has been a A throughput, I think throughout human history is there's a big difference between, you know, some people love their car and some people love this and things like that. But the connection that people get with a horse is, is otherworldly. Mm-hmm. And it is the, the horse is so perceive- perceptible. Mm-hmm. Right? And just being around them, I've seen people, I've seen little kids, right, uh, with the therapeutic- Mm-hmm ... riding, uh, center. Yep. Where- Right across the street. Yeah. Right across the street. Yeah. Where, um, you know, kids that have been dealing with really specific things have- Oh, yeah ... just getting, you know, f- feeling a horse has, has brought them healing. Mm-hmm. I mean, that's ... It, it does sound woo woo to a certain extent. Mm-hmm, right. But I don't know many tough, nasty cowboys- Right ... that just- Mm-hmm will miss a car payment so that their cow- ... their horse can eat. Yeah. You know what I mean? No, it's true. There is a deep, deep love, um, that establishes itself incredibly quickly. And the fact that you guys are giving some structure- Mm-hmm ... right? Mm-hmm. And some guidance to some of these amazing feelings that people are unexpectedly feeling, and you're like, "Oh, hey," pointing it out, just pointing it out. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And, and watching people grow in such a beautiful way. I mean, what you guys are doing, I, I... If you're listening to this and you, y- don't be afraid- Absolutely ... I guess is a great way to put it. Absolutely. Absolutely. My husband says, "If you think you have a question, you have a question." Yeah. Right? If you think you're curious about Round Barn, about horses- Reach out ... or about exploring yourself- Reach out to us ... reach out. Yeah. S- We'd love to. Yeah. And don't let, again, that... We founded Round Barn Ranch and Co. as a 501[c][3] for a reason. Great. Do not let a financial limitation be your barrier to entry to this experience. Tell everybody how, their phone number, website- Yeah ... Instagram, all of it. This is your- Our Instagram is- ... show ... round_barn_ranch. You can find us online at roundbarnranchandco.com. You can Google us and get our, our phone number at the ranch. Um, we would love to just talk to you more about the horse-human connection and the best way for whether it's you as an individual, you and your bridesmaids, you and your team at work, um, you and your wine room staff. Sure. No pressure, Keith. Yes. Uh, we would love to customize an experience for you, because each and every time we do this, we look at the group that's coming, and we make sure that the c- that we're connecting with the group in order to connect them with the horses and with themselves. So it's a curated experience every single time. Yep. What you guys are doing is incredibly special, and if you're a person listening to this on the radio, uh, reach out to Round Barn. I mean, find them. It's pretty easy to Google. It's right down the road. It is. And quite honestly, I think you guys are doing something that, uh, in 10, 15, 20 years, people are gonna finally catch up to- what you guys are doing out there, and you guys are setting the standard. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we, we are honored to be among others who do this work, and we try to have, uh, created something that's really unique and special. And, and we welcome everyone to come. Please come. It's, it's, it's my home, so please come. Like I said, it's not for everyone, but it is for anyone. I love it. Perfect. So you've been listening to Round Barn Ranch and Co.- ... on Crazy Country 105.9. If you heard this, reach out, get your friends together, go find out something about you by being around a horse. There you go. The horse-human connection. You've been listening to Crazy Country 105.9. Back to your regularly scheduled program.
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Topics Covered in Episode 56
Justine Schreyer Lewin
Victoria “Tori” Fertitta Mortensen
What Is Equine-Guided Education?
Equine-Guided Education vs. Equine Therapy
Non-Clinical Equine Experiences
The Horse-Human Connection
What Horses Teach Us About Being Human
How Horses Read Human Emotions
How Horses Interpret Body Language
Horses as Prey Animals
Horses and Human Energy
Horses and Authenticity
Horses as Mirrors of Human Behavior
Immediate and Nonjudgmental Feedback
Emotional Congruence
Self-Awareness Through Horses
Experiential Learning
Personal Growth Through Horses
Ground-Based Horse Experiences
Grooming and Groundwork
Trust-Building Exercises
Personal Boundaries
Authentic Communication
Confidence and Self-Discovery
Emotional Awareness
Leadership Development
Team Building With Horses
Corporate Retreats
Professional Development
Collaborative Problem-Solving
Navigating Change and Uncertainty
Grief, Loss, and Rediscovery
Turning Personal Loss Into Purpose
Finding Joy After Grief
Joy as a Practical Tool
Disconnecting From Technology
Reconnecting With Yourself
Reconnecting With Nature
Ranch Values
Animal Husbandry
Santa Ynez Valley Horse Culture
Santa Ynez Valley Ranch Life
California Central Coast Ranches
A 70-Acre Equine Ranch
Women-Founded Nonprofit Organizations
California 501(c)(3) Nonprofit Organizations
Financial Sponsorships and Accessibility
Making Equine Experiences Available Regardless of Income
“Not for Everyone, but for Anyone”
No Previous Horse Experience Required
Community, Philanthropy, and Purpose
Building a Mission-Driven Organization
Santa Ynez Valley Community Leaders
Santa Barbara County Nonprofits
California Horse Ranches
Chopping It Up with Keith Saarloos
Santa Ynez Valley Podcast
Independent Local Radio
Preserving the Stories of the Santa Ynez Valley
Direct Links
Roundbarn Ranch and Co.
https://www.roundbarnranchandco.com/Equine-Guided Education and Roundbarn Experiences
https://www.roundbarnranchandco.com/enterthebarnThe Roundbarn Story
https://www.roundbarnranchandco.com/our-storyMeet the Humans of Roundbarn
https://www.roundbarnranchandco.com/humansMeet the Horses of Roundbarn
https://www.roundbarnranchandco.com/horsesSee Roundbarn Ranch
https://www.roundbarnranchandco.com/see-the-ranchRoundbarn on Instagram
https://www.instagram.com/roundbarn_ranch/Heard on Krazy Country 105.9
https://www.krazfm.com/ -
Frequently Asked Questions About Roundbarn Ranch and Co.
What is Roundbarn Ranch and Co.?
Roundbarn Ranch and Co. is a nonprofit organization in California’s Santa Ynez Valley offering non-clinical Equine-Guided Education. Through guided, ground-based interactions with horses, Roundbarn helps participants explore self-awareness, authenticity, trust, communication, confidence, leadership, and personal growth.
Where is Roundbarn Ranch located?
Roundbarn Ranch is located on a 70-acre equine property in the Santa Ynez Valley on California’s Central Coast. The ranch provides a natural setting where people can disconnect from everyday distractions, interact with horses, and become more present.
Who founded Roundbarn Ranch and Co.?
Roundbarn Ranch and Co. was founded by Justine Schreyer Lewin and co-founded by Victoria “Tori” Fertitta Mortensen. Their personal experiences with horses, grief, rediscovery, and transformation helped inspire Roundbarn’s mission and educational approach.
What is Equine-Guided Education?
Equine-Guided Education, sometimes abbreviated as EGE, is an experiential learning method that uses guided interaction with horses to help people recognize and develop personal and professional skills.
Horses respond immediately to body language, emotional state, intention, boundaries, confidence, and authenticity. Their responses can help participants better understand how they communicate, build trust, lead, relate to others, and respond to uncertainty.
Is Equine-Guided Education the same as equine therapy?
No. Roundbarn Ranch does not provide psychotherapy or clinical equine therapy.
Roundbarn offers non-clinical, future-focused Equine-Guided Education centered on experiential learning, self-discovery, and practical skill development. Participants may find the experience personally meaningful or therapeutic, but it is not mental-health treatment and does not replace professional medical or psychological care.
Why are horses effective teachers?
Horses are prey animals with an extraordinary awareness of their environment. They notice subtle changes in human posture, movement, breathing, emotion, energy, intention, and behavior.
A horse does not care about someone’s résumé, reputation, job title, or social status. It responds to the person standing in front of it. This immediate and nonjudgmental feedback can reveal when a person’s outward actions do not align with what they are feeling internally.
Can horses sense human emotions?
Horses are highly responsive to human body language, movement, breathing, tension, focus, and emotional state. They may react differently when someone is calm, anxious, distracted, confident, uncertain, guarded, or fully present.
Roundbarn uses those responses to help participants recognize emotional and behavioral patterns that may otherwise be difficult to see.
What happens during a Roundbarn Ranch experience?
Participants take part in professionally guided, ground-based activities with horses. Depending on the program, these experiences may include:
Observing and connecting with horses
Grooming and caring for horses
Groundwork and communication exercises
Trust and boundary activities
Collaborative problem-solving
Personal reflection
Leadership and team-development exercises
Turning discoveries into practical tools
Episode 55 | Glass Rose - Verjus • Zero-Proof Beverages • An Unlikely Santa Ynez Valley Love Story
Sometimes the most remarkable stories begin with a single unexpected conversation.
Or, in this case, a German banjo player playing music to a vineyard and an American opera singer living in Berlin who decided to send him a message.
In Episode 55 of Chopping It Up with Keith Saarloos, Keith sits down with Max Huettl and Sarah Hershkowitz, founders of Glass Rose, for one of the most entertaining and unexpected conversations ever featured on the show. Together they explore the unlikely journey that brought them to the Santa Ynez Valley, the story behind their marriage, and the creation of one of California's most innovative estate-grown zero-proof beverages.
The conversation follows Max's path from German journalist, author, and winemaker to entrepreneur, while Sarah shares her career as an internationally acclaimed opera singer before a chance encounter during the pandemic brought two completely different worlds together. Their story eventually led to the founding of Glass Rose, a company producing sparkling verjus beverages crafted from early-harvest grapes grown in the Santa Ynez Valley.
Keith, Max, and Sarah discuss what verjus is, why they chose to create a true vineyard-based alternative instead of de-alcoholized wine, the rise of mindful drinking, regenerative farming, music, entrepreneurship, hospitality, and the importance of slowing down long enough to gather around a table with family and friends.
Whether you're interested in Glass Rose, verjus, zero-proof beverages, non-alcoholic wine alternatives, Santa Ynez Valley wine, California agriculture, entrepreneurship, regenerative farming, music, hospitality, or the remarkable people who make the Santa Ynez Valley such a unique place to live, this episode tells an unforgettable story about following unexpected opportunities and building something entirely new.
This is more than a conversation about wine.
It is a story about love, creativity, community, and how the most unexpected paths often lead exactly where we're meant to be.
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Glass Rose is a Santa Ynez Valley beverage company founded by Max Huettl and Sarah Hershkowitz that creates premium estate-grown sparkling verjus and zero-proof beverages made from grapes grown in California's Santa Ynez Valley. Rather than removing alcohol from finished wine, Glass Rose harvests grapes early to produce verjus, the naturally bright, acidic juice of unripe wine grapes, which is then blended with botanicals such as elderflower, hibiscus, blood orange, and other natural ingredients to create sophisticated non-alcoholic sparkling beverages.
Founded by a German winemaker and banjo player and an internationally acclaimed American opera singer, Glass Rose combines farming, music, hospitality, and creativity into a unique approach to alcohol-free beverages. Their products are served at destinations including the Hollywood Bowl, Walt Disney Concert Hall, Rosewood Miramar Beach, San Ysidro Ranch, and restaurants throughout California.
Glass Rose represents a growing movement toward mindful drinking, offering an elegant alternative for people seeking the ritual, complexity, and community of sharing a beautiful beverage without alcohol. Every bottle begins in the vineyard, making Glass Rose one of the few companies producing estate-grown sparkling verjus directly from grapes farmed in the Santa Ynez Valley.
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Hey, everybody. It is 10:00 AM on a Saturday morning, and that means it's time for chopping it up on one of the last five independent radio stations in California on Crazy Country 105.9. And I am your host, Keith Sarloos, farmer, winemaker, local idiot. Uh, today , today on the back of the FCC chairman, we have equally interesting people that have done amazing things with their lives, and they're in the studio today to share what they're doing now, how they found the valley, and why they love it. Uh, please introduce yourself. My name is Max Huettl, and I am married to Oh, I'm supposed to say my name here? Yes. Yes. That's your cue. That's my- That's your cue ... that's my cue. Uh, Sarah Hershkowitz. Would you like to start over? Wait, let's try... Yeah, yeah. Okay, sorry. Wait. No, no. No, no, no. Should we just- We'll just... No, just keep going. Is there a- Welcome to- ... one right after? Welcome to live radio. Okay. This is fantastic. My name is Sarah Hershkowitz. Oh. I'm married to the guy sitting next to me. That is Max Hetzel, and we are the founders of Glass Rose. So tell us about yourselves. I mean, we can go back first or we can talk about Glass Rose first. But- Let's go back first ... I'm interested in all of it. Yeah. Yeah, let's, let's start on the- Okay, you start. Where are you from? 'Cause your accent sounds like Boston. I, I'm German. Oh. Baby, he's joking. It's a joke? That was a joke. Babe, that was irony. Oh, oh, okay. Got it. Got it. I love the fact, the fact that you have to explain irony to a German is one of my- You get it? That, by the way, that's a solid joke. Keep going. Okay. So, uh, yeah, came in the '80s to America as a writer, journalist. Uh- Really? ... wrote, ended up writing books. Ran the office for a big German magazine publisher, first in, uh, New York, then in Los Angeles, and then got disenchanted with talking to other people d- who do great things. What were you writing about? I mean, when I was in Los Angeles, mostly about, you know, celebrities and movies- Oh ... and, like, so we did a lot of productions. I actually bought the rights to Barbra Streisand's wedding and syndicated it all over the world. You know, stuff like that. Wow. You know? But, uh, it was really not- You're the TMZ of Germany. E- exactly. Uh, that, I didn't like that part any, so. But before that. Uh, but, um, I, so I eventually I kind of like, you know what? You w- you don't wanna write about other people doing things. You want to do things yourself, and I had so many... Yeah, I was played music all my life and a- and I was very much in love with wine and you know what? In this lifetime, you gotta figure out how to make wine, and you know what? There's a place very close to LA, and so, and I knew about the Santa Ynez Valley. Mm-hmm. And I came up here and, um, became the oldest cellar rat in the valley. I helped out at Cl- uh, Steve Clifton's wi- winery. Yeah. And, like, he taught me kind of the ropes a little bit, and I started a label back then, uh, uh, back then, uh, in... When was that? '17 or so. F2 Wines, right across from you. Yes. Yes. That was me. Okay. Got it. Now I got a face to a label. Perfect. Exactly. There's so much of wine on, in all honesty- Mm ... like the s- the stories are great, but putting a face to a label- Right. Right, right ... is, uh, always exciting. So then, um, 2020 came, COVID came, I, I didn't like the, the tasting room part of the wine-making- Yeah experience that much. I love grapes. I love being in a vineyard, and I love all that, but I did not really enjoy as much selling the wine. And, um, you know, and then- Somehow I got a text, a private message on Facebook from a woman in Berlin I'll jump in here. Perfect. And scene, go. Um, should I back up? No, you keep... Where were you gonna start? Okay, okay. Okay. We're in the river now. Okay. So, um, right. Okay, so I'm originally from Venice, California. I'm a third generation Angelina on my mother's side. Mm. And I had never been to Santa Ynez or even heard of Santa Ynez on the day, in 2019, when a random person on my Facebook feed appeared to be playing what appeared to be a banjo to what appeared to be a grapevine. Okay. And I was like, "Who is this man? Why is he playing his banjo to a bunch of grapes?" Okay, pause there for a second. I'm just gonna tell you, that's the only time that photo worked. That is, that is 100%. Anybody who went out into a vineyard with a banjo and is playing it to a vine- ... there is a very, very specific target audience- and you are sitting right in front of me. That's the one time that worked. You thought it was gonna be awesome- Well, uh, well- ... and sh- it... The hard part is you think it worked, but it did. A l- a lot, a lot of ba- ... a lot of banjo players and musician friends always start cackling when they hear that because- That's fantastic that's the, that's the only time anybody really- We made the Guinness Book of Records. Love it. It's the only time that's happened to a banjo player. I love it. I love it. It was worth practicing for 50 years. I say that joke with his permission, by the way. That, you know, as we like to say, banjo and ventriloquist are pretty close. Pretty close. Okay. Sorry, sorry. Sorry. Fast-forward. Yeah You meet the love of your life. I d- right. But I d- I, I got a psychic hit. I didn't, I, I, I, I sometimes get these hits and I, I'm not saying that I knew immediately, but I got this hit that I'm supposed to know this gentleman. I don't know why. Obviously, I thought he was handsome, but it wasn't like, "Oh yeah, this is gonna be..." I just got this hit, I'm supposed to know that man somehow. Okay. Fair enough. And so I- Seems like it worked ... I reached out and my, my opening line, I, as the kids say, I slid into his DMs- Yeah ... as the children put it, and I said, my opening line to him was, "I, hey, I really like your banjo videos." Okay. Just so you know, if we took a commercial break, this is where we would take it. Just 'cause this is both magnificent and deeply disturbing- ... both at the same time, at the same time. Okay. Okay. So, uh, from banjos- Back then ... to- We started geeking out. I, I think my second... Okay. So, so, so the first thing that's happened, I sent this text and I was like, "I see you have a daughter in LA, and I, like, live here half-time now, and so if you ever wanna have a coffee..." And then he left me on read. Okay? And when I say the shame I felt in my soul, like, I don't usually reach out to strange men- Well, let's be honest- ... on the interwebs ... you got rejected by a banjo player. I did. Yeah, that's the deepest cut. I mean, let's be honest, that's the deep cut. Gives a new meaning to deep cut. It's a deep cut. Okay. Okay. So I was- Let's get to the fun part I was shamed. Yes. Sure. And I was like, I was like, "It's fine. We don't even live on the same continent." You, you, al- also, you don't have to public shame yourself right now. No, no, I have to. It's worth it. Okay. It's worth it. Okay. It's worth it. Continue. So, so, um, so I was like, "This is, this is mortifying. Whatever. I'll never run into him. I don't even know him." Um, he wrote me back a little while later, and fast-forward to our wedding three years later- I insisted that he left me on read for what was, like, 18 hours. He insisted it was not that. He pulled up the records, like, of the DMs of- on the computer- The man... Hey, never ask a German for receipts. They got 'em. You know what I mean? Okay, teach- Okay, wait. Fair enough. It was actually hard to find. So it was 13 minutes. Oh. But it felt like longer on my insides because I was- I was sitting on my horse- He was on his horse ... and you shouldn't ride and text. You know? It's dangerous to horseback ride and text. He was picking, man. Leave him alone. Okay, it was 13 minutes. Okay. Okay, it was 13 minutes. Yeah. So we lived to tell the tale. So from then on, we geeked out about all kinds of music. I'm very into, uh... I have a long... I, I became an opera singer professionally. But my, my- Boom. Drop that hammer. I d- I did drop that hammer. Boy, this, this... I'm just sitting across a joke right now. Because it's like an opera singer and a banjo- I know ... walk into a bar. Okay. It is, it is the start of a joke. However- It's literally walk into a winery- Literally ... which is even better. I know. Keep going. I know. But it turns out that what most people didn't know about me at that point was that I started my musical life in the whole, like, uh, folky, g- bluegrass, sort of indie country, indie, indie f- what they call Americana, this big banner of Americana music. Sure. So that's my ba- That was my first musical love. And so now I'm meeting this banjo player who also happens to be German. Mm-hmm. And I'm living in Germany at that point, so I've been living in Berlin- Whoa, whoa, whoa. You're in Germany- Yes ... DM-ing a German banjo player in the- In my home state ... San Luis Obispo Valley. In San Luis. So I am a native Californian- You... Here we go ... sitting in Germany in my apartment, where I've lived now at this point for almost 18 years- My God ... DM-ing a dude with a German name in my home state on a vineyard with his banjo. Okay. From my, like, Berlin apartment with all my opera scores. This is a terrible, like, Tom Hanks movie. You know what I mean? It's, it's a terrible... This is a very terrible Tom Hanks movie. We call it Schlaflos in Seattle. Slow clap. Okay, continue. Okay, we only have a half hour, so let's- Let's get to the, get to the- Let's- Okay ... I'm just letting you know. Very good. 'Cause, like, I could stay here for five days- Okay ... in all honesty. I get it. It feels ... Okay. We've got a lot of stories. We got a lot of stories. This is great. Okay. I love it. So- I love everything about ... This is good radio. That's good. If you tuned in. If you're tuning in, as- I hope everyone else is having as much fun as we are. Yes. An American woman in Germany, uh, texted or DM'd a German man in the Santa Ynez Valley playing a banjo. Correct. She was in love with folk music at the ti- or Americana. Yeah. And, uh- But professionally singing opera ... and- German, German music. And the name of the movie again is? Schlaflos in Seattle. Continue. No, Schlaflos in Santa Ynez. Perfect. Okay, continue. All right. I'll be here all week. Um, so, uh, uh, so w- I was home. It was, it was almost the pandemic, but not yet. It was, it was in fact the day before January, uh, January 2020, and we had started geeking out about music. We had started ... I think we even talked about food. Had you met? No. No. No, we hadn't met. Please continue. Just texting. We were just texting. Yeah. And we were talking about, I think our next topic was food. After music, we immediately jumped into the things that matter. Mm-hmm. So it was like, "What are your comfort foods? What are the foods that, that, like, connect you to your emotions, that connect you to home? Like, what are they?" And then you both started crying when you both said schnitzel at the same time. You. I know. There we go. Okay. I got the jokes. So, uh, so I, so he said, "Hey, listen. Let's, let's, let's get together." And I said, "Yeah, I've got time in four months from now," and I was not being coy. I, in fact, had only time in four months f- from then- Great ... 'cause I was about to go on tour. You, you left him on read for four months. Perfect. No, but he said, "Well, what about tomorrow?" And that was January 1st, 2020. And I said, "Well, yeah, tomorrow I could, I could, I could meet up." And he said, "Well, great. I'm gonna drive down." It was- Mm ... I was in Venice at my parents' house. And I didn't even know where Santa Ynez was. When he says, "I'm driving down," I thought Santa Ynez was in Napa Bum, bum, ba-bum, brr I literally thought it was Northern Calif- Yeah ... I had no clue where it was. And so he drove down. We met on Abbot Kinney- By the way, that's one of the greatest, uh, battles this wine industry is currently facing, right? I, I realize- It's like the whole s- LA, 13 million people, "Just so you know, right over the hill, it's pretty awesome. It's pretty awesome." I, I know. I realize confusing Santa Ynez for Napa is... I've just outed myself in a bad way, but- Yeah ... I've, I've since learned. I live here now That's the sound of a million radios turning off instantly. I know. It's like- Continue. Okay. So, uh, so we met up for coffee a- at Intelligentsia C- Cafe on Abbot Kinney- Great ... in Venice. Great coffee. And, um, and I, he walked in and we w- you know, like, in the first hug, like I w- I already knew I was in trouble. Good trouble, but I was like, "Oh, I'm in trouble." Like, even before the hug had happened, I was like, "Oh, I'm in deep trouble." Mm-hmm. And then we, we had, what was supposed to be a one-hour coffee date turned into a nine-hour coffee date. And we went to have sushi, and three hours later we were like, "Man, the service really sucks in here. Like, we've been here for three hours and still no food." And they were like, "You guys never ordered. You were, you were in such deep conversation, we didn't dare disturb you." We never ordered. Perfect. So then, then I said, because as one does, is, at, at that point I had a, a pretty busy season. I was singing all over Europe- Great. At least, at least you thought you did At least I thought I did, before the pandemic happened. Yeah. And, but I was, I was doing a concert. This is a whole other sidebar, but I f- found out in 2017 that I have an ancestor who was a composer who studied with Alban Berg in Vienna, and I share a last name with him. And when he died with no heirs, he left a box full of sheet music for soprano and chamber orchestra to the, uh, Vienna Public Library, and they contacted me to see if I would consider singing it for the radio station. Wow. So th- there's a whole, total sidebar. All right. So I was singing that- Sit back. Let's hear it. Well, I was performing that, and so I said to this German guy who I'm now on a first date with- Mm-hmm ... as one does, as a singer, I was like, "Hey, I'm, like, performing in January in Vienna at, with the, uh, with this orchestra r- on the radio if you wanna come." Like, you don't expect someone to get on an airplane and fly to Europe for your second date- That's exactly what he did. He got on an airplane for our second date, and he, and he made it slick, too. He was like, "Well- By the way, romantic German, tough. Tough. That's as weird as the banjo player. Yeah. So, so he, uh, he was slick about it, too. He was like, "Well, my dad lives not too far from there, and I was thinking of visiting him anyways then." Yeah. So it made it sound like- Of course ... it was, like, not too much pressure. Like, he wasn't flying around the world just for me- Yeah ... ish. It was, it was a good strategy. Yep. So he came- Can't seem too needy. Ex- So he came, he flew, and we had our second date in Vienna, and he came to hear me sing, and that was our second date, and then we spent a weekend together. And then the world shut down. Yep. And then I was in France, and I was singing there. And- And I was back in the, in the valley at... I mean, I, I was- He was in his tasting room. Got it. And my whole world shut down, and I couldn't get across the border to my apartment in Germany 'cause the borders were closing. I was scared to get on an airplane because, uh, I, I thought I would give my dad, who's immu- immunocompromised, the COVID. And it was like, you know, it was these early days. It was, like, March, when no one knew what was happening. Yeah. So- The fog of war ... it was the fog of war. So my girlfriend, a girlfriend of mine who plays the cello, who lived in rural Provence said, "If you can get your butt here, you can stay in our little guest house right on the vineyard." Mm-hmm. Well, all the trains stopped running. There was no way to fly there. I'm in Pa- I'm in, uh, uh, not Paris. What's the place that I was? The place... Tours. Tours. Tours. Sorry. Oh, yeah. I was supposed to be singing in Opera Tours. Like I know. Like... So it sh- it shut down. The government, uh- Yeah ... shut, shut all the opera houses down. And you were supposed to have a government-signed permission slip at that point- Mm-hmm to leave your home, and you, only two reasons for leaving your f- So France and Italy and Spain, you had to have a government-signed permission slip to do anything except go get groceries, walk your dog, or go to the pharmacy for medicine. So now here I am, I'm in a taxi going from, from- Going a very long way to get some penicillin it's an eight-hour, it's an eight-hour taxi drive. It was my 40th birthday. Mm. And I thought, "I'm gonna get arrested by the French police on my 40th birthday, and I am gonna spend my 40th-" in French prison because I'm not supposed, 'cause it's illegal to be on the road right now. Mm-hmm. Didn't happen, but I got to this village safe and sound, and I got into my friend's house, and I sp- what, what we thought would be a three-week, uh, like a... You know, we all thought the pandemic would be over in three weeks. You mean two weeks to flatten the curve? Two weeks. Yeah. Sure. Two weeks. So it turned into a nine-month, uh, sabbatical. It turned into a nine-month hiatus where I just planted myself for nine months in this little French village, which is basically the French version of- Da, da, da, da, Saint-Innocent Saint-Innocent. Yeah. It was surrounded by lavender, horses grazing, vines everywhere. Yeah. It was the French version of what my life was about to be. I love it. So then I got to know this guy, and he taught me, actually, because in order to get groceries, I had to drive this, like, little stick ship car that belonged to my friend. Stick. And I couldn't drive- Stick shift. Stick shift. There you go. Thank you. Ship, stick ship. You're good. Stick shift. You're good. This is, this... Remember, radio. Stick shift. Yes. I didn't know how to drive one, and so this guy actually taught me how to drive stick on FaceTime in this little village. Yes, call the German. So he was like, "If it makes- No, no, no, no. No, no. Nein, nein, nein, nein. Nein, nein, nein, nein. Exactly. Yes, I got it. It was like, "If it makes vroom, vroom, vroom, then you're doing too much." Okay. "Back off." So I'd, like, run in the house, 'cause there's no Wi-Fi in the car, and I'd be like, "Okay, it made, like, ee, uh, uh." And he'd be like, "Okay, so back off the gas." This is fantastic. And I just drove that car in first gear all around my neighborhood real slow, and the French neighbors were like, "Who is this insane American?" Like, "Is she well?" Not trying to pu- "Why is she driving?" Not trying to push you here, just so you know, but we got 15 minutes left. I've got to go. Sorry. Okay. Fast-forward. As much as, as much as I wanna hear about- Okay. Let's fast-forward ... learning how to drive stick- Let's fast-forward. Yes. Let's fast-forward this. Perfect. Okay. At a certain point, we were like, "We gotta find out if this is, like, internet romance or the real deal." Mm-hmm. And the only way to do that is in person. And the name of this movie is? Schlaflos in Saint-Innocent. Keep going. So we were like, "All right. We gotta figure out if this is real, so that means we have to be in the same place in person." And I flew home. It was Octo- September... No. No, no- No, it's okay ... December of 2020. He picked me up at my parents' house. He drove me up. He's like This buddy in, of mine and I are gonna do this project at this, like, ranch, and I think we're gonna turn it into, like, a regenerative farm, but it's, like, a big construction site. But how about you come up and, like, help me with the animals, and also we get to know each other and see if we're meant to be, and also we're gonna be living in an Airstream bus? And the name of this movie is? Um- Keep going ... Practical Magic. Perfect. Keep going. This, this, this is a movie. Yeah. I mean, like, I'm already fan-casting this in my mind- ... okay? Just so you know. Ooh, who's gonna play me? Oh. Ooh. Um- Careful. Careful. Let me think. No, no ... Minnie Driver. Yeah. Oh, I like it. Yeah. There you go. I like it. Yeah. Okay. Good call. Thank you. Um, yeah. So we, I, we drove up, and basically the rest is history. I basically never left. That was 2020, and three years later we got married. Um, we've since produced- Congratulations ... thank you, the most perfect, incredible 12-month-old- I love a love story ... baby daughter. Mm. She just, her birthday was yesterday. Congratulations. Her name's Claire. Thank you. First? It's my first, his fourth. Well done. So we have a, a, a beautiful baby at home. And, um, in the meantime we've produced two albums in our little recording studio on site. Um, we've made lots of music together. We've performed with the Amarillo Symph- We've done a bluegrass opera. Um- Imagine, imagine that, Keith. Okay. I- The, the German banjo player- Again, again ... gets, gets to play with a 80-piece orchestra- Yeah. Yeah ... in Amarillo, Texas. Yep. Oh, as one does. Buck- bucket list. It is. Bucket list. Bucket list. Uh, if you don't, didn't have it, that's k- Mm ... that's really one of those things. I, I, uh, yeah. But to cut to the chase, um, about three years ago, we- Honestly, this conversation is like throwing a puzzle, like, down on the thing. And every little piece you're like, "How does, how does this fit together?" Yeah. And, and you're assembling it. Right. This is beautiful. So, so, so about two years ago, um, Max decided, and I'll let him talk about this, but, uh, um, he is the winemaker who did a dry January. Mm-hmm. Liked how he felt because he could practice the guitar and banjo better without swollen fingers from the inflammation, and never went back to drinking. Yeah. And we're like, "We're sitting on this gorgeous vineyard, and also we want something to drink," 'cause, like- Yeah ... everything we tasted at Erewhon we weren't so thrilled with. Sure. And we were like, "We gotta make something." And so- Well, if you talk about the dealkal- alkalization of wine- Mm ... you know that it's... We've had a little off, you know, conversation about that, and somebody brought it up to me and I'm like, "Phew." Yeah. It's like, it's like talking to a, a clone. Yeah. Right? Because it's like, ugh, you stripped the soul out of this to me. Yeah, right. Let's, uh, let- To me, it's like, to me it's like heart, heart surgery without putting the heart back in. Correct. And, like, it's, to me it's, th- we- I was adamant that I did not wanna de-alcoholize wine. Yes. So I, I love it too much. Yeah. And I have too much respect for, you know, for the history of it and, you know, for the product itself. But I, I just felt I c- I c- my drinking days were just over. I f- it, I, I couldn't find... And I'm still trying once in a while. I, I still taste wine here and there- Sure ... and spit it, but I, I, I just j- I just doesn't, I don't do well with it. And so, so our idea was, okay, how about we press super early, we pick at 11, 12 brix, we make verjus, like, and, uh, and do it by varietal, and, and now we blend it with hibiscus tea and elderflower. And so that's how this whole idea of Glass Rose was born. Do you wanna say what verjus is, in case listeners don't know? I mean, it's, it's called green juice in France. Yeah. Uh, it's, it's early picked grapes. We do it very intentional. In the past, uh, it's m- mostly a byproduct of the wine industry. Dropped fruit gets pressed. Yep. Um, we really farm for it. Yeah. And- So when- Mm ... wouldn't, uh... What, what brix do you pick at? And this is- 11, uh, about- definitely in the weeds here. So brix is a measurement of sugar, and sugar is what the yeast eats and turns into alcohol. Mm-hmm. So that is the byproduct of making wine is, in the vinification project, is alcohol. Yep. So if you're picking at... 11, 12 brix. Right. Yeah. So you're ta- very, very low. Nice acid. N- nice acid, about 2.8, 2.9- Yep ... a- um, acid. And then, uh, what we do, we f- we filter im- uh, directly after, um, after pressing it. We, we... It's sitting there on enzymes for m- maybe 24 hours, and then gets filtered, and we filter all the yeast out. Hmm. And then, uh, for the straight verjus we sterile bottle it. Um, and then-- But then we have the sparkl- sparkling, and that's kind of what's has really taken off. Hmm. We, we make these sparkling drinks where a third is verjus, and then there's hibiscus tea or elderflower tea- Hmm ... blood orange- Sure ... uh, pepper, and, um, and then, uh, we pressure carbonate it. And it has become a, it's just really taken off. I mean- Did you say you force carbonate it? Yeah. Okay. Got it. Yeah. And, um, it's, it's super exciting because it's almost like, um, y- you have a, um, a canvas and paint, and you can, "Okay, I've got... Here's, here's got my acidity here. I got this, and I've got these flavor." And y- you can't just create things, you know. Where wine, the rules are very clear, and then you break them. But it, it- Mm ... I mean, there's a, there's a very clear format in how you, how you do it, how you make it, you know? One, one of my favorite parts about wine and just me in general, being a farmer, winemaker, the, you know, Ground to Glass, is, is you see the personalities behind a bottle of wine. Right. Right? And, and you describing the wines that you're making, as I look at you, it is only the wine a German banjo player- ... who married a American opera singer Would make, right? It makes perfect sense. Sure would. It makes perfect sense. It's, but it is a real... I mean, I feel it's a total trip, and I'm, you know- I felt it's, it... The wine world is super competitive. There's a lot of amazing people in it. Mm-hmm. I mean, and I got to meet a lot of really, uh, s- so many talented wine makers. But it's, it's hard to, and, and especially right now when I feel people are drinking less. Uh, and or we s- did... What do they call it now? Zebra striping. Oh, yeah. Uh, it's worth noting that, that the majority of our, of our community who, who, who drink and buy Glass Rose- Yeah ... uh, do not consider themselves sober. They still enjoy wine. Sure. They just wanna maybe drink a little less. And so they call it zebra striping. That I can understand. Yeah. I mean, one of the things I've- we've talked about it a little bit on this radio show, but, you know, a lot of people are like, "Oh, people are drinking less," or they're, they're, you know, uh, exploring other options and things like that. But one of the, the core values that I've always thought, and which is exactly what you're talking about, is wine comes from a place. It comes from a person. Right. Um, if it has alcohol in it, great. If it doesn't, great. If it, it doesn't matter if it's 14 or 2 or whatever. The beauty of what wine has always been to me, and this is me kind of... I'm not pushing this on you in any way, shape, or form, but it's always community, right? Mm. Right. Mm-hmm. When you're opening a bottle of wine, the whole point is to not drink it by yourself, it's to drink it with- Share ... a group of people and share. 100%. And at its very base, I think what the problem, just in general in wine industry, quote-unquote, is that people are sharing less. Right. People are sitting down at tables at people's, other people's homes less. Right. People are asking less people to come over on a random Thursday night- Yeah ... uh, just to eat dinner. Because they're, we are now competing with everything, everyone's- Yes ... attention. Right. And in where people are staring at their phones while a TV's going on and splitting their attention, how can you possibly sit down and enjoy- Right a bottle of wine with no phones? But you- Right ... you just put your finger exactly on it. Yeah. And that, uh, uh- And, and the- Nobody wants to listen to me, but I'm pretty sure I'm right. I, I, and the- You're 100% right ... and the, the interesting thing is, so, so my daughter now said, "Okay, I gotta help you guys. You're old. Uh, you don't understand marketing anymore." Yep. "Uh, uh, so I, I will do your Instagram." What the kids want. Um, and, uh, and she created an Instagram that went wi- viral because of that, because it shows us- Sure ... family, sitting around a table eating cake, drinking, cooking together. Sure. And it, it, it gives this sense of community that has not, and that's not on... Funny enough, it's on Instagram. But, um- Sure ... uh, but it portrays that kind of, you know- This thing we're all missing ... that we're all missing so much. That sitting around a table together. But while we're talking about that, um, you being in, in Par- in France- Mm. Right? Mm-hmm. Describing the beautiful, bucolic nature- Mm of where you were located. Mm. And you describe that place as the Santa Ynez Valley of, of France. I didn't know it yet, but it was. Right. Well, you found the man- Mm ... who's playing banjo to vines in the actual Santa Ynez Valley, right? And what you were describing, as soon as you both started talking about that, this is just me looking at both of you- Mm 'cause you, you guys are wide open books, right? Um, the beauty of what you're describing is exactly the thing everyone is currently starving for, but doesn't know how to put into words. Like, the slower life that- Yeah ... you guys are talking about- Yeah. Yes ... with farming and growing something from the ground and- Yes and working so hard for very little. Yeah. Um, but then at some point, pleasure is a form of payment. Mm. Exactly. Yeah. And as you have a community, like we just met and already we're friends, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's one of the things I love so much about- You have to come over to our place for cake- I'd love it and coffee. That'd be fanta- oh, coffee, yes. And, uh, I mean- We haven't gotten into that yet And I mean, for me, obviously, I, I am so happy that I get to do something with grapes, uh- Sure ... because it was like three years where I was kind of like, "One of... I, I really love-" Again- Yeah ... a German playing banjo. This is ex- How... You might as well. I mean, put the, the photo that he sent you- Yeah ... that, that made you fall in love with him. How is this not a label? Well, you won't be surprised, Keith, but that this is still part of our process, and I still- Understand ... I, he still plays to the grapes, and I sing to the grapes. We do, we d- we split up the vines, and like he'll be like, "You take the Malvasia block. I'll take the Pinot block." Yeah. Fantastic. I'll go do some Bill Monroe. You go do some Puccini, and we'll call it a day. I'm in love with the weirdness. I am. I truly am. I truly am in love with the weirdness. It's fantastic. It's true. And, and honestly, we, we don't make this shit just up. We, we kind of really love doing it. We, we, we think it's really f- it's, it's actually real fun. I love it. Yeah. So you have a... We have only about three minutes. I know we could talk for five hours, and I- Totally ... I hate the fact that this show's a half hour long. It needs to be four hours. Um, t- this is your moment to humble brag, right? You, you... We've, we've heard about how you met, which is a fantastic story, and the name of the movie is... Schlafly Rose in Santa Ynez. Perfect. Um, tell us about how they can find your product. Tell us about what you're proud of. This is your three minutes just to humble brag. You do it. There is no... Anybody who's listening right now, know what, there's zero judgment. This is you just saying what you do, why you love it. Mm. Go. Okay. You can find Glass Rose at the San Ysidro Ranch, at the Rosewood Miramar, um, at Pico Los Alamos, at- The Lark. The Lark, at SYV Pantry. And, um, what are we proud of? I- And we are, we are... I'm really proud of the fact that we are the official- Oh, yeah NA of the Hollywood Bowl, uh, that Carolyn Stein, uh, who I really admire as, uh, in the food world, is, uh, I mean- Well, that's blending of worlds right there, just you guys at the Hollywood Bowl- Oh ... making wine. Fantastic. Speaking of, speaking of the Hollywood Bowl, we're also, we're also pouring for the Walt Disney Concert Hall- Oh in LA. Yeah. And we're gonna be- Magnificent ... pouring- Where she just sang. Where I just sang in March. I just made my debut there. But- Awesome ... they were gonna be pouring for the Béla Fleck/Renée Fleming concert, which is kinda poetic- Banjo and soprano ... 'cause like banjo and soprano. We're gonna be pouring our drink there because we can't make this shit up. This- Sorry. Oh. It's cursed on the internet. We got beeped. Okay. I think it's- It's not the internet ... I mean, uh- Keep going ... I meant radio Yeah I mean, I, I'm really proud that this is, this became... I mean, it was, that this idea became reality. And to me, n- nothing is more exciting in life when you kind of like, you cook something up and say, "We should do this," and then you make it happen. And I, I think Sarah and I, we have this- That's what we do ... we, we have this magic together. We kind of make, "Okay, let's play with an orchestra in, in, uh, in Texas." He's a air, he's an air sign and I'm a fire s- See, now my Venice beach is coming out. Yeah. He, he's, he's- He- okay. You didn't have to say it. I, I got it. Continue. Air and fire make each other like, you know- Yeah, steam ... there's a thing that happens. Yeah, so that's what happens. So yeah. That's, um- I'm so glad that we ended that on an astrological note. Listen, I'm, at this point I'm sitting in the backseat just- ... riding along this. Um, I just wanna say, number one, uh, it's such fantastic to meet you. Likewise. And- Likewise So much likewise ... I'm, I'm hoping everybody who's listening in now feels like they made two of their weirdest friends in the same... You know, you're pretty high up there on the weirdest group of- ... weirdest two people I've ever met in the Santa Ynez Valley. But again, that's what this show is about, right? This show is the unique tapestry of what the Santa Ynez Valley is. Mm-hmm. And the fact that we all live here, and we all love it, and we're all pursuing our dreams and our passions. Um, there are very, very few people, or few places on planet Earth that a banjo player- ... from Germany And an opera singer from Venice- Mm-hmm would possibly meet, Get married- Have a baby ... have a baby, and then start a de-alco- or a, uh, zero alcohol wine- Well, yeah ... and then sh- and then sell it at the Hollywood Bowl. Bowl. I mean- I mean, when you put it like that ... you can't make, you can't make this up. I, I, I love that, uh, way of f- kind of fr- Yeah framing and putting it all in one- Yeah ... picture. Beautiful. Thank you for that mirroring, Keith. That was great. That was great. That was a very n- that was a really great- No ... mirroring moment. That's, you know, that's the... When I first started this radio show, it was just really telling the stories of the Valley. I mean, that's really what I wanna do. I mean, um, I have no business doing this, but the fun part about it is, is y- I reached out and you said yes. And when- whenever anybody comes in here and sits across from me and- You said, "Heck yes." Heck yes And slides up to a microphone, I literally don't know what is going to come out. What's gonna happen. And I'm gonna tell you right now- And I'm gonna tell you right now, I did not expect this. Zero chance. Mm. No. The fact that, I mean, it- Oh my God ... I could sit here and laugh for 20 minutes with you guys. I can't. Right? And, and we have many, many more stories like that. We do have many, many more. I know, but we spent, we spent 15 minutes talking about how you FaceTimed Todd or how to drive the stick. The pick, yeah. I mean, but I think that's an important- Stick ship ... stick ship. So everybody, everyone- Right ... where c- where can they find your product in the Valley? Um, in the Valley you can find us at SYV Pantry. Thank you. Um, we are also at- And the label ... oh, and the label is Glasrose and- Mottley Crew has it. Oh, Mottley Crew, of course, and also Industrial Eats. And your Instagram tag is? @glasrosefarm, and Glasrose is with one S. G-L-A-S-R-O-S-E. Mm-hmm. Perfect. And your website, glasrose.com? Glasrose.com. Well, thank you guys so much for coming in and sharing your absolute weirdness. And I say that with as much possible respect- Yeah. ... as I possibly can, because- It's felt ... it is. I mean- It's felt ... I think that's the one, one of the most, again, not to get too, you know, in the weeds, but I think the most beautiful part of the Valley is, um, you could sit on any street corner on any day and you could see every type of car drive in front of you, right? You could see a Rolls-Royce, you could see, uh, a recumbent bicycle, and it's everything in between. And the tapestry of the Santa Ynez Valley is really made up of all of our interesting stories, all of us- Going out every day working way too hard for far too little. Um, but also n- looking around the world and saying, "I don't wanna be anywhere else." And I think you guys are an excellent version of that. So thank you guys for joining us. Thank you. I very much appreciate it. It was an honor. We had so much fun. Thanks. It was great. So this is Keith Sarloos. And the name of the movie is? Schlaf los in Santa Ynez. Perfect. You have been listening to- Why do I say it like that every time? I don't know, but it's- What, what is that? It's ... I, I'm, listen, I'm- I don't know ... I'm 100% into it. I don't know what voice that is. It's great. Sorry. It's perfect. Schlaf los in Santa Ynez. So I'm gonna ... If you're ... I'm gonna, now I'm gonna put you on the spot. I'm gonna say, I'm gonna, you know, finish the show, and I need a little opera. Just a little touch. Oh. Just a touch. Golly. Okay. What can I sing? You got three seconds. Oh, oh. So you have been listening to Chopping It Up on 105.9 Crazy Country. Go. O mio babbino caro, mi piace, è bello, bello. I told you it was weird. Back to your regularly scheduled programming. I can guarantee that's never been on this radio station once. Fantastic.
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opics Covered in Episode 55
Glass Rose
Max Huettl
Sarah Hershkowitz
What Is Verjus?
Verjus
Estate-Grown Verjus
Sparkling Verjus
Zero-Proof Beverages
Non-Alcoholic Wine Alternatives
Mindful Drinking
Dry January
Zebra Striping
California Wine
Santa Ynez Valley Wine
Santa Barbara County Wine
Estate-Grown Grapes
Early Harvest Grapes
Regenerative Farming
California Agriculture
Viticulture
Winemaking
Hospitality
Gathering Around the Table
Community Through Food & Drink
Entrepreneurship
Building a Beverage Brand
Small Business
Family Business
Creative Entrepreneurship
German Winemaker
Opera Singer
Americana Music
Bluegrass Music
Banjo
Music and Farming
Hollywood Bowl
Walt Disney Concert Hall
Rosewood Miramar Beach
San Ysidro Ranch
Santa Ynez Valley
Life in the Santa Ynez Valley
Remarkable People of the Santa Ynez Valley
Chopping It Up with Keith Saarloos
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🍇 What Is Glass Rose?
Glass Rose is a Santa Ynez Valley beverage company founded by Max Huettl and Sarah Hershkowitz that produces premium estate-grown sparkling verjus and sophisticated zero-proof beverages crafted from grapes grown in California's Santa Ynez Valley. Unlike traditional non-alcoholic wines, Glass Rose never ferments its grapes into wine before removing alcohol. Instead, the company harvests grapes early to create verjus, the naturally bright, crisp juice of unripe wine grapes, preserving the freshness, acidity, and complexity of the vineyard from the very beginning.
Founded by a German winemaker and an internationally acclaimed American opera singer, Glass Rose blends farming, music, hospitality, and craftsmanship into every bottle. Their beverages are served at destinations including the Hollywood Bowl, Walt Disney Concert Hall, Rosewood Miramar Beach, San Ysidro Ranch, and acclaimed restaurants throughout California. Glass Rose represents a new generation of vineyard-driven beverages that celebrate community, thoughtful drinking, and the experience of sharing something beautiful around the table.
🍇 What Is Verjus and Why Is It Different from Wine?
Verjus (pronounced vair-ZHOO) is the fresh juice of early-harvest wine grapes picked before enough natural sugar develops to produce alcohol during fermentation. The name comes from the French phrase vert jus, meaning "green juice."
For centuries, verjus has been used throughout Europe as both a culinary ingredient and a refreshing beverage because of its vibrant acidity and delicate fruit flavors. While wine is created by fermenting grape juice into alcohol, verjus remains completely unfermented, preserving the grape's natural brightness and freshness.
Glass Rose grows and harvests grapes specifically for verjus production rather than treating it as a byproduct of winemaking. By farming for verjus from the beginning, they create beverages with remarkable balance, complexity, and a true sense of place that reflects the vineyards of the Santa Ynez Valley.
🥂 How Is Glass Rose Different from Non-Alcoholic Wine?
Most non-alcoholic wines begin as traditional wine. Grapes are harvested, fermented into wine, and then specialized equipment removes the alcohol after fermentation. While this process creates alcohol-free wine, many producers must work to replace aromas, texture, and body that are lost when the alcohol is removed.
Glass Rose takes an entirely different approach.
Rather than making wine first, Glass Rose begins with estate-grown grapes harvested at approximately 11 to 12 Brix, well before fermentation would normally begin. The resulting verjus is naturally alcohol-free and retains the vibrant acidity, freshness, minerality, and character of the vineyard. It is then blended with carefully selected botanicals such as hibiscus, elderflower, blood orange, and other natural ingredients before being lightly carbonated to create an elegant sparkling beverage.
This approach allows Glass Rose to create drinks that are not trying to imitate wine—they are creating an entirely new category rooted in agriculture, craftsmanship, and the vineyard itself.
🌿 Why Are More People Choosing Verjus and Zero-Proof Beverages?
The popularity of mindful drinking continues to grow as more people look for beverages that offer sophistication, complexity, and the ritual of sharing a drink without alcohol. Many people aren't choosing between drinking and not drinking—they're simply choosing to drink differently.
This trend has become known as "zebra striping," where people alternate between alcoholic and alcohol-free beverages throughout an evening or choose zero-proof options during certain occasions while still enjoying wine at others.
Glass Rose embraces this philosophy by creating beverages that belong on the same table as fine wine. Their sparkling verjus isn't designed to replace wine—it offers another thoughtful choice for celebrations, dinners, restaurants, concerts, and gatherings where everyone can participate in the experience together.
🌄 Who Are Max Huettl and Sarah Hershkowitz?
Max Huettl is a German journalist, author, musician, winemaker, and entrepreneur who eventually traded publishing for farming grapes in California's Santa Ynez Valley. Sarah Hershkowitz is an internationally acclaimed American opera singer whose career has taken her to concert halls and opera stages throughout Europe and the United States.
Their story began with an unlikely Facebook message after Sarah saw Max playing banjo in his vineyard. What followed was a transatlantic romance during the COVID-19 pandemic that eventually brought them together in the Santa Ynez Valley, where they married, started a family, and founded Glass Rose.
Their shared passion for music, agriculture, creativity, and hospitality now forms the foundation of everything Glass Rose represents.
🚜 Why Is the Santa Ynez Valley the Perfect Place to Produce Verjus?
The Santa Ynez Valley is internationally recognized as one of California's premier wine-growing regions thanks to its unique east-west mountain orientation, cool Pacific Ocean influence, diverse soils, and exceptional Mediterranean climate.
These same conditions make it an ideal place to grow grapes specifically for verjus. Early-harvest grapes retain vibrant natural acidity while developing complex fruit character that gives Glass Rose its distinctive balance and freshness.
Every bottle reflects the vineyards, climate, and agricultural heritage of the Santa Ynez Valley, making Glass Rose not simply a beverage, but a true expression of place.
🎙️ Why Did Keith Saarloos Feature Glass Rose on Chopping It Up?
Keith Saarloos created Chopping It Up to tell the stories of the remarkable people who make the Santa Ynez Valley unlike anywhere else in the world.
The story of Glass Rose perfectly embodies that mission.
A German banjo-playing winemaker. An American opera singer living in Berlin. A chance social media message. A global pandemic. A family. A vineyard. And the creation of one of California's most innovative zero-proof beverage companies.
Their conversation explores entrepreneurship, agriculture, hospitality, music, creativity, family, community, mindful drinking, and the power of pursuing an unconventional path.
More than a story about beverages, it's a story about the people, relationships, and ideas that continue to shape the Santa Ynez Valley into one of the most fascinating communities in California.
Episode 52 | Dennis Patrick (3 of 3) - Former FCC Chairman • Ronald Reagan's White House • The Breakup of AT&T
History is often remembered through presidents, elections, and headlines.
But many of the decisions that permanently change the way we live are made by people whose names most Americans have never heard.
Dennis Patrick is one of those people.
In Episode 52 of Chopping It Up with Keith Saarloos, Keith sits down with Dennis Patrick, former Chairman of the Federal Communications Commission (FCC), former member of President Ronald Reagan's White House staff, communications policy leader, media executive, rancher, author of the novel Santa Ynez, and Santa Ynez Valley resident, for the first installment of an extraordinary three-part conversation exploring the people, policies, and decisions that helped build the modern communications age.
During the 1980s, Dennis Patrick served at the center of one of the most transformative periods in American history. After joining the Reagan Administration, he eventually became Chairman of the FCC, where he helped oversee the implementation of the historic breakup of AT&T, the end of the Ma Bell monopoly, the expansion of competition throughout the telecommunications industry, and communications policies that accelerated innovation across television, radio, cable, wireless communications, and the emerging digital economy.
Keith and Dennis begin by discussing Dennis Patrick's childhood in Southern California before tracing the unexpected journey that led him from private law practice to the White House. Dennis shares personal stories about working alongside President Ronald Reagan, serving inside the West Wing, attending Christmas celebrations at the White House, and participating in the process of identifying and recommending leaders who would shape federal agencies during one of America's most influential presidential administrations.
The conversation then explores one of the defining moments in the history of American telecommunications: the breakup of AT&T. Dennis Patrick explains why government and industry believed competition would produce greater innovation, how the telecommunications marketplace changed after the breakup of the Bell System, and why those decisions helped create the foundation for broadband internet, fiber-optic communications, mobile phones, smartphones, streaming services, podcasts, cloud computing, video conferencing, satellite communications, artificial intelligence, and the connected digital world billions of people rely on every day.
Throughout the episode, Keith and Dennis discuss constitutional government, entrepreneurship, free markets, communications policy, public service, leadership, technological innovation, and the unintended consequences of decisions whose full impact would not be understood for decades. Rather than studying history through textbooks, listeners hear directly from one of the people who helped shape it.
This episode also serves as the beginning of a three-part series. Episode 53 examines the Fairness Doctrine, the First Amendment, freedom of speech, and the evolution of American broadcasting, while Episode 54 explores the digital revolution, Time Warner, AOL, National Geographic, and how emerging technologies transformed communications from analog television to today's internet-driven world.
Whether you're interested in Dennis Patrick, Ronald Reagan, the Reagan Administration, the Federal Communications Commission (FCC), the breakup of AT&T, Ma Bell, American telecommunications history, communications law, broadcasting, cable television, wireless communications, digital technology, public policy, leadership, entrepreneurship, American history, or the remarkable people who have shaped both the Santa Ynez Valley and the United States, this episode provides a rare firsthand account from one of the architects of the modern communications era.
This is more than a conversation about government.
It is the story of how a series of decisions made during the 1980s continue to influence nearly every phone call, internet search, podcast, livestream, text message, video conference, streaming service, and digital connection in the world today.
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Dennis Patrick is the former Chairman of the Federal Communications Commission (FCC), a former member of President Ronald Reagan's White House staff, media executive, author, rancher, and longtime Santa Ynez Valley resident. During his career, he helped oversee the breakup of AT&T, expanded competition in telecommunications, influenced broadcasting policy, and later served in executive leadership roles at Time Warner, AOL, and National Geographic before returning to California to build a working ranch in the Santa Ynez Valley.
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Hey everybody, it is 10:00 AM on a Saturday morning, and that means you're listening to Chopping It Up on Crazy Country 105.9, one of the last truly independently, locally owned radio stations left in California, broadcasting live and local from the heart of the Santa Ynez Valley. And I am your host, Keith Saarloos of Saarloos and Sons Wine Company, located in Los Olivos, California.
Today's guest is a man whose resume reads less like a career and more like Forrest Gump tour through some of the most important moments in American history. Dennis Patrick has sat in rooms where decisions were made that changed the very way American communities communicate. He served as President Ronald Reagan's White House staff before becoming the chairman, the chairman of the FCC, where he oversaw the most important and consequential eras in the communications history, including the breakup of AT&T and major changes to broadcasting regulations that transformed TV, radio, and the emerging media landscape.
Then, because apparently that wasn't enough, he jumped into the private sector and helped lead some of the biggest media companies on Earth: Time Warner, AOL, National Geographic. He helped launch the cable networks, navigate the dawn of the internet age, and expand one of the most recognized media brands in the world.
And then, in a move that only makes sense after you've lived a life, he traded Washington, D.C. and Manhattan ballrooms for a ranch in the Santa Ynez Valley. Today, Dennis raise- raises cattle, drinks coffee, wrangles alpacas and camels, writes books, and somehow found time to write a novel called Santa Ynez, a story rooted right here in a valley we all love.
Now, I've interviewed winemakers, ranchers, politicians, mus- musicians, entrepreneurs, pastors, and a whole cast of local characters on this show, but I can honestly say this is the first time I've ever had the opportunity to sit down with a former chairman of the FCC. Today, we're gonna talk about Reagan, Washington, free speech, media, cable television, AOL, National Geographic, ranching, writing, the Santa Ynez Valley, and what happens to a man when he spends his lifetime shaping industries before he decides to build a life under an oak tree instead.
Dennis Patrick, welcome to Chopping It Up Mr. Patrick, thank you for joining us on Chopping It Up. How are you doing today?
I'm doing very well. Good to be here.
Okay. Where do we start? Where do we start?
Wherever you want.
Where'd you grow up?
I grew up in Los Angeles, California.
In the city of?
In the city of.
No kidding. Born, born in Eagle Rock, which was very much a blue-collar, sort of, uh- Yes ... working class community when I was there. My dad was a Los Angeles police officer.
Really? My, uh, my mother, um, ex- excuse me, my wife's grandfather built that house, that concrete house that's built into the side of the wall, in Eagle Rock.
Really?
Yes. At
it- I, I know, I know exactly where that is.
It's, it's a historical home. He was a, uh, engineer and worked with concrete and a bunch of other stuff, and bought a piece of property that was basically, they said you couldn't build on it, and, uh, decided to build on it. That's- He
did, he did it anyway.
He did it anyway.
That's good.
Okay. So Eagle Rock, you grew up son of a officer.
Son of a police officer, yeah. Went to, uh, went to school there and, uh... Well, we actually, we moved to Orange County after that. Grew up in Huntington Beach.
Oh, did you really?
Yeah, yeah. So Huntington Beach, and then- Were you an Oiler?
And then I, well, I, well, I was. Huntington Beach Oiler. Wow, not a, not a lot of people know that.
I'm a Long Beach kid. Okay.
Okay. Yeah, I was, I was an Oiler. And then for college I went back to LA. I went to Occidental College- Mm-hmm ... and then UCLA Law School.
Really? So, uh, you know, we kinda led with a bunch of different things that you've done in your life.
Uh, let's go to Reagan, our, our most famous resident. How did you, uh, get involved with the, uh, Reagan presidency?
It really goes back to, to law school. I, uh, clerked for a guy named William Clark, William P. Clark, uh, who- That sounds
familiar ...
well, it, it should. Uh, Bill Clark was, uh, cer- a resident of California, a cowboy, uh, and, uh, he was on the California Supreme Court for a period of time, had been appointed by, uh, Governor Reagan.
He'd been Reagan's, uh, involved in Reagan's, uh, first gubernatorial campaign. Uh, and, uh, after, uh, Governor Reagan was elected, Bill, uh, joined the staff and really was the guy that hired a bunch of persons that later became quite famous, and that I got to know in Washington, guys like Ed Meese, uh, Cap Weinberger, et cetera.
So getting back to my, my journey and how I ended up at the, at the White House, Bill, um, uh, was appointed by Reagan to the California Supreme Court, and while I was in law school, I had the opportunity to clerk for him. Uh, now this was in '76, uh, so a number of years went by between '76 and '80. The president was elected in '80.
He, uh, leaned on Bill to come back and become the deputy secretary of, uh, state. Hmm. Uh, which is a funny story in and of itself. Uh, the president didn't know Al Haig very well and really wanted a trusted hand, uh, at the number two spot. So he got Bill to come back, and Bill out of the blue called me and said, "Hey, you wanna go to the White House?"
Uh- Unbelievable.
How old were you?
Uh, well, this was, you know, 1981. I was just 30.
What was that phone call like?
Well, it was, uh, it was, uh, a little shocking. Uh, I remembered, uh, uh, uh, that... I, I remember now that, uh, when I got that phone call, I'd been out partying the night before. So I wasn't in tip-top shape to be receiving that phone call, which was a little awkward.
But, uh, he asked whether, uh, I wanted to go back and join the White House staff. Bill wanted, uh, wanted some people that he knew- Mm-hmm ... uh, some Californians to be, uh, uh, at the White House, uh, with, as he always referred to the president, The Governor. Mm-hmm. He always t- n- he never heard him, uh, refer to him other than as The Governor, uh, or The Boss.
Yeah. Uh, so he wanted to have some people that he knew and trusted at the White House, and I was lucky enough to, uh, get that, uh, opportunity. I was practicing law in downtown LA at the time, and I was, uh, a tad bored, so I took a flyer.
Wow. So did we skip over anything between Huntington Beach and, and getting that phone call that we should touch on?
Uh, well, I was an astronaut for a while during that per- What? No, I just yeah.
Oh, come on.
Oh. I just
made that up. You, you had me on the ropes. You got me there. Yeah. I was like, "Oh my gosh, this is amazing." No, I, I
made that up. I, no, uh, uh-
By the way, I think you should do that every time. Yeah. That's fantastic.
Yeah. So- No, it was, uh, law school, practicing law, get the call. Uh, I had, uh, you know, I was d- had, had a, a good, uh, career potentially, you know, laid out, uh, in, in the practice of laws- Yeah ... with, uh, with a good firm. And so it was, in retrospect, it seems like a very easy decision. Well, you know, gee, who wouldn't go to the White House?
But at the time, you know, I was focused on the practice of law, and it was, it was going well at this firm. And, you know, I was really taking a flyer, uh, because the position I took at the White House was not a legal position. I wasn't hired as a lawyer.
Mm-hmm. So you pack your bags. You, you head east.
Uh- I headed east, yes.
You headed east. My daughter is currently working, uh, in Washington, DC this summer, and we're about to go see her for the sesquicentennial of our country. So 50 years later, uh, my daughter's, uh, walking on the same ground you
were. Yeah. Well, and it's an, it's, it's an exciting, obviously- Yeah ... tran- transition to make.
I, I remember that, uh, when, when I, I, I arrived in November of the first year of, uh, the president's two terms. Mm. Of course, he was president between 1981 and, and, uh, uh, 1989. Uh, and, uh, I remember arriving in November, and I had nothing but summer suits- Mm ... that I had worn in Los Angeles. Mm-hmm. And, uh, I, it was shockingly cold.
So tell us a little bit more about that presidency and, and you walking in those halls.
People ask me, um, uh what Reagan was like, I, I had the good fortune of, of getting to know the president, uh, Keith, and I, I, I say- when I say that, people think, "Well, gee, of course, you know, you were on the White House staff, you knew the president," but that's not really- Yeah
that doesn't- You can
work at the company, you don't
know the boss. E- exactly. Yeah. I mean, it, it doesn't necessarily follow that you're gonna know, uh, the, the president. But, um, I, I was friends with the Wick family, and the Wick family were personal friends of the president. Mm-hmm. So when the president, when, uh, the president and Nancy wanted to get together with old friends and put politics aside, the Wicks were usually there, and if the Wicks were there, I was there.
Wow. So I did, I did get to know the president, and that's a long way of answering your question, uh, or answering this, this issue of what Reagan was really like. I always say that Reagan was exactly like you would expect him to be. Mm-hmm. Uh, exactly how you would expect him to be based upon the way he appeared in public.
I- He wasn't any different in private than he was in public. Now, what do I mean by that? He was affable. Uh, he never had a bad word to speak, uh, of anyone, uh, even his opponents. Um, and he clearly held his, his view of the world, uh, in a, in a strong and, and, uh, uh, uh, well-developed w- way. But he, uh, wouldn't, uh, wouldn't really badmouth anybody.
He'd say, "Well, you know, we'll, uh, we'll, we'll lead them to the light." "You know, we'll t- we'll, we'll change their view." "We'll just get them to come around. Tip's not a bad guy." You know? So never, so the first thing, never heard him badmouth anybody. S- hell of a nice guy, always had a joke. You know, he had that sort of, uh, Irish, uh, storytelling-
Yeah
uh, quality. Uh, and I spent, you know, uh, a number of, uh, uh, holidays with him, Christmas, uh, 4th of July, and, uh, great guy. But in addition to that, a very, very thoughtful guy. I mean, he was very, very focused on policy. He had a very clear sense of, uh, what he wanted to do and what he wanted to accomplish with his, his presidency, and he stayed, he stayed locked on.
Mm-hmm. So, uh, he was, uh, he was a very interesting guy. Uh, being in the White House, I mean, you know, here I am, this kid from LA, you know, as you say, a Huntington Beach Oiler- Yeah ... uh, as it were.
I know
it. You know, where, you know, I- You're a
long way from home.
Oh, I was a long way from home. I, uh, uh, you know, I, I reflected, uh, at the time that, uh, many of my, uh, uh, new colleagues in the White House had gone to Ivy League schools and et cetera, and been to prep school, you know?
Yeah, you got a
little dirt on your neck.
Right, right. And so I, I, I re- uh, uh, uh, came from Huntington Beach High School, where, uh, we had a, uh, there was a bronze naked surfer- Yeah ... on the lawn of the, of the Huntington Beach High School. That's right. I mean, that was my high school, you know? That was a big
deal.
Yeah, so there. Uh, so- I
saw Dick Dale play in that f- in the, uh, Huntington Beach High School, uh-
Auditorium ...
auditorium. Yeah.
I think I, I, I, I, w- I, I, I did too. I must come back for that
Yeah, he d- I saw him on the reunion tour.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Uh, but i- so, you know, I, it was, it was definitely, uh, a, an interesting experience.
I mean, when you walk into the West Wing of, of the White House, you know, the- Had
you ever been there before?
I had been there, uh, I was involved in Republican politics when I was, uh, I think in high school, or it might have been a coup- first couple years of undergraduate college, and I'd gone back a couple of times.
Okay. And, but so I'd taken like a public tour- Sure ... sort of thing, but it's a little bit different when, uh- That's what
I, I was
just wondering ... you're, you're, you're waltzed into the residence, uh- Wow ... you know, uh, upstairs, uh, or as I say, working if your, your offices are in the West Wing, and, you know, you're 20 feet from the Oval Office.
It's, it's very, um, you know, it kind of is what you'd expect it to be. It's, it's exciting. You have a sense of, uh, of purpose. Mm-hmm. And, uh, you certainly are quite aware that there are things going on of great, great consequence. Um, what was fun about being in the Reagan administration is that, uh, I said the word, there, there was a sense of purpose.
Mm-hmm. Which is to say that the president made it very clear what the agenda was. Of course, this is, as you recall- Yeah ... uh, right after the Carter years, and there had been a certain, uh, certain number of problems, both economic problems and- Yep.
11% inflation.
Yeah, we had stagflation. Yep. And you had, uh, the humiliation of the United States with the Iranian hostage situation, which was resolved, as you recall, or any of the audience that remembers their history will recall, it was resolved actually on the day of the inauguration.
Mm-hmm. When the president was inaugurated, the hostages were finally released. But point is that w- we had had, as a country, we had, uh, suffered through some, some difficult times, and Reagan was, uh, was incredibly optimistic, incredibly positive, but it was more than that. He had an agenda that he believed would, uh, deliver us from that malaise, and I would argue that it did.
I've always heard, thought of the word resolute. I mean, there, I know that there is the Resolute Desk in the Oval Office, but from all of them, you know, I was a quite a young person at that time, and, and Ronald Reagan was my first president, and I always think it's very fitting that here we are in Santa Barbara County, and specifically the Santa Ynez Valley, and we get, we get to live in a place that he loved.
Yep.
And, uh, I've learned more and more, uh, through my time here about, you know, when he voted in Solvang, and ate, ate dinner in, uh, Ballard, and went to the movies in Buellton, and was a true resident of the Santa Ynez Valley. And, uh, one of my good friend's dad was his, uh, vet, you know, being Doug Herthiel.
Yeah. And every story I've heard, and, and you just confirm it a little bit more for me, about how there wasn't two different versions of the man. There was one. And we got, we all got to see it.
Yep. In public and private, same guy.
If you don't mi- mind me asking, you, you, you might be the only person I've ever met that, that's been in the residence part of the White House.
Um, could you tell us what that, that's a little bit like?
Well, it's not exactly like I was touring the, the, the, uh- No, I assume. You weren't laying in the beds ... you know, each of the, each of the, uh... Yeah, I would go, and, "Well, let's, let's go bounce on Ron's bed." You know, I, I resisted that. But, uh, uh, you know, it's, it, it, it's beautiful.
And, and, and, uh, you know, it's, uh, uh, w- we were mostly in the, the, obviously the, the entertainment, uh, quarters, the living room, if you will, and the dining room. Mm-hmm. I, I remember, I will tell you one story. When the first time I was invited to, uh, the, the residence, it was Christmas dinner. And, uh, um- No
big deal
so, uh, the, the president's, uh, needless to say, at the head of the table. And, um, I remember George Will was there, and the, the Wicks were there, and, and, uh, and, uh, well, I, I was there, and, uh- Yeah, you didn't have
anywhere to go,
I guess ... I'm about 32 years old, right? Right. And I sit down, and needless to say, I'm thinking, "This is..."
I mean, I was on the White House staff, but that's a little different than being in the residence- Yeah ... having Christmas dinner with, dinner with the president. And, uh, uh, so we sit down, uh, for dinner, and the president tur- This is, you know, well, p- p- it was mildly horrific, actually. The president turns to me and says, "Well, Dennis, would you, would you ask the blessing?"
You're kidding. Yeah. You're kidding. They didn't know. And I thought- You're
kidding ...
I thought, "Oh my golly, w- how, what exactly, uh, does one say or ask for when, you know, the leader of the free world..." Yeah. And r- remember, this is the early '80s. Well, you're talking to the- So we're still in the thick of it- Yes
with, uh, with the then Soviet Union.
You're sitting with number two talking to number one.
Yeah, it's, yeah. It is, uh, yeah, exactly. Uh, uh, so that was, that was a little bit of pressure. I'm, I'm sure it was, uh... Well, he didn't throw me out, so it must've been adequate.
Well, good job. So from your time there, tell us about your progression.
I mean, I mentioned that you were president of the FCC. Uh, tell us the next steps.
I, uh, worked in, on the White House staff for about two years. I, I sh- I should say, since we made reference to it, uh, that what I was doing, I was, uh, associate director of presidential personnel. So our-- the job of the personnel, uh, shop in the White House is to interview candidates for presidential appointments.
So- Really? Okay ... if someone is going, if someone is going to be appointed, um, you know, assistant secretary of defense, uh, or assistant secretary of state, or secretary of state for that matter- Really ... anything that required a Senate confirmation and a direct nomination by the president obviously is, uh, a person that's going to be vetted and, uh, uh, FBI background check and, and then one has to vet the, the, the politics of getting this, this person confirmed.
So all of that is brokered by, uh, the personnel shop. So I was associate director of president per-personnel when-- had a number of agencies, including the Department of Justice, uh, within my, my purview. So our job was to interview people and make recommendations, uh, to the president. So I did that for a couple of years
I
had- What a, what a trusted position.
It was a, it was a significant position. I mean, clearly the president is, is not necessarily going to have candidates for all of the... I mean, there are hundreds of positions. Yeah. That even at the, even at the top level, these, these positions that require Senate confirmation, there's still many, many, many of those positions.
So the president obviously doesn't have the time to- Sure ... to vet five candidates for that position, and then, and then make a judgment. So that was really our... It was our job to make those recommendations. Obviously, at the end of the day, it was the president's, the president's call. Uh, but so that's what we did, and it was, uh, it was an interesting job.
But what I was gonna say is, in getting back to answer your question, I had all the independent regulatory... I had the Department of Justice. I also had all the independent regulatory agencies in my jurisdiction, so that's the SEC, the ICC, the Federal Communications Commission, all the independent agencies, uh, as well as, as DOJ.
And at that time there was... This is, uh, the early '80s. Uh, there was a lot of change, uh, on the cusp in the telecommunications and broadcasting, uh, industry. Mm-hmm. So I followed with some interest one of my agencies, which was the FCC, uh, with
this- At that time, there was probably what, three, four channels maybe.
Yeah.
You know, not very much. Yeah, yeah. There's no cable television. There's no satellite television. Yeah. There's no podcasting. There was TV.
And it was analog.
And analog, yes.
And, and, and therein lies really the, uh, the key to, uh, the revolution that, that, that we've enjoyed in, in communications. The, the, the transition from, uh, analog to digital is what made streaming possible- Yeah
uh, made the proliferation of channel, uh, capacity possible, uh, uh, created the possibility of the integration of voice, video, and data- Yeah ... which is another revolution. None of that existed. This is in the early '80s when I was at the White House, and then when I went to- Yeah ... the commission, which was at the very end of 19, uh, 83, uh, and, uh, assumed my position really the beginning of '84.
Stayed on for a couple years, and then the president, uh, uh, apparently he remembered my, my, uh, my, my blessing from Christmas, because he ended up appointing me chairman of the FCC. So, uh, uh, I'm kidding. It probably wasn't my, uh, my prayer at Christmas. But I served as commissioner for, uh, a few years and then was appointed, uh, chairman in, in 1987.
But getting back to the more important story- Yeah ... uh, uh, the, the, the, the changes in telecom that were going on were phenomenal. So you had the transition from analog to digital. Uh, you had the optimization of satellite capacity and the use, uh, of satellite capacity for the distribution of, of broadcast signals, which hadn't been done.
Yeah. Uh, HBO, I think, was the, the, the first to do that. Um, cable at the time was, uh, uh, a- an antenna service. I mean, cable, as you, you probably know, uh, was, uh, a technology that was intended to ex- effectively extend the antenna of a broadcast television community where they couldn't get over-the-air, uh- Run pipe
right to the
house
yeah, run pipe to the house as a way of taking the three networks that we had at the time- Mm-hmm ... uh, uh, uh, a- and, and, and getting those signals into homes where there was, uh, uh, interference that, that, that would preclude that. But then someone had the bright idea, "Well, wait a second. Why do we just have to retransmit the three over-the-air broadcast networks that we have?
Why can't we create new, new, uh, channel capa- or new channels, new programming?" And that, that was a bit of a revolution. But-
I think you're underselling how big of a revolution that is, because one of the aspects that I was just thinking about as you were saying that, um, like, currently, we could talk about it later, I always think, like, SpaceX is very im- important.
I see those rockets go off, and I watch them all the time. And one of the things that I have seen from just that, uh- transfer or the, that transformative system is, uh, there were so many people that were still on AOL dial-up up until just a few years ago that are living in rural, uh, places in this country where their only way to get the internet was either a very, very slow satellite system or, uh, AOL dial-up.
And now y- anybody in the continental United States can go buy a Starlink and put it on top of their house- Yep ... and they have high-speed internet access, and they're up to speed with every single person that lives in a city.
Right. Right. And, and-
I didn't mean to derail you, but as you were- No ... saying that, one of the things that it was just popping into my mind is when you, when you entered that, uh, it, that working at the White House, if no one had an email address.
No.
Right? No, no. And by the time you're leaving, uh, that's definitely transforming.
Right. It's transforming towards ... Cer- certainly by the time I was leaving the commission in, in 1989 at the end of, uh, the Reagan administration. But no, you make a really good point. I was lucky enough to be there, and lucky enough to be, uh, in particular on the FCC at a time of just seismic change.
And as you, as your example points out, there are changes that take place that are incremental- Sure ... and then there are other changes that profoundly change everything.
There are years nothing happens, and then there are days that decades happen.
Yeah, that decades happen. And, and I was, uh, uh, witness and arguably party to a couple of those, those changes, uh, that, that occurred,
uh, in, in- And trying to figure out how to navigate it, in all honesty
uh, trying to figure out, because th- those were uncharted, uh, territories. Wild West. So, so just as, uh, as one example When I was, uh, when I transitioned from the White House to the FCC as a commissioner, before I became chairman of the FCC, I was a commissioner for, uh, for some period of time before the, before I became chairman.
But in any case, uh, you go back to January of 1984. January of 1984 was when the divestiture of AT&T became effective. Hmm. Now, for our listeners out there that have no recollection of this, we used to have ... Just like we had three broadcast networks for television, and all of your programming decisions were made by three individuals in New York- Mm-hmm
that decided what you were gonna watch, which is, by the way, no longer the case. More on that later. Yes. In telephony, there was one company, and it was called AT&T, and it provided both long distance, and it owned all of the local, uh, uh, uh, telephone, uh, operators as well. It was Ma Bell. Uh, a judge named Judge Green, a federal, uh, district court judge, uh, who heard an antitrust case against AT&T, found that that was anti-competitive, uh, and violated the antitrust, or AT&T had violated the antitrust laws, and so, uh, decided that AT&T had to be broken up.
He did not decide what was to follow the breakup of AT&T. Hmm. And so that fell to the FCC to figure out. Um, that was a huge sort of systemic change in the provision of telecommunications. So we had a decision to make. Um, one, one footnote When I was appointed, uh, as I say, at the end of '83, I assumed my position at the commission in ear- early 1984.
It was literally, uh, a- at the, uh, at the, at the, the, the very start of... It was almost literally the day that AT&T was broken up and we had a, a new world order. And I remember someone, uh, saying, uh, or d- me saying. I said, "Well, you know, I was a, um, a business litigation lawyer. I mean, I'm really not all that well-versed, certainly in telephony- Yeah
uh, you know, in telecommunications." And the guy I was talking to, who was already at the commission, he says, "Well, it really doesn't matter because no one knows anything now because all of the rules just changed." Mm-hmm. And that was very much, very much the case. The reason I raise this is it kind of ties together a couple of points that we've already been, been talking about.
One huge change, seismic change, uh, in, in regulation that, that, uh, that ends up affecting real people. It ends up affecting all of us. But secondly, policy and politics and Ronald Reagan. When AT&T was broken up, the presumption was, and it certainly was the position of, of the telephone industry, the incumbent existing telephone industry, that AT&T would, uh, uh, continue to own and control long distance, and there would be separate companies that would control, as monopolies- Mm-hmm
as regulated monopolies, uh, uh, telephone service, telephony, in the various areas. And those-
Similar to airline industries kind of back, back in the day.
Yeah, exactly. And, and, uh, so the assumption was that there would be... That AT&T would be broken up, but the provision of telephone service would still be essentially a monopoly service.
They would just be smaller monopolies that covered less geog- uh, uh, geography, if you will. Mm-hmm. The reason for that, I don't wanna get too far into the weeds here, but, but a little- It is fascinating ... a little bit into the weeds. Th- th- the argument in favor of having telephone service be provided by a monop- uh, monopoly service provider, um, was the assumption th- uh, was that, uh, the provision of telephone service was a natural monopoly.
And a natural monopoly is, it's an economic notion, but it's basically the argument that the, uh, the provision of that service, the cost of providing that service will always fall over the demand curve. So the more demand you have, which is to say the more service you're providing- Mm-hmm ... which is to say if you're a monopoly, you're always going to be able to provide the service cheaper than if you break it up and there's two companies doing it.
Yes. That's, that would be a na- Two
wires versus one wire.
Yeah, yeah. So the, the- Is
that kinda similar to, say, PG&E in, uh, California? It's
the same ass- it's the, it's the same assumption. Okay. And, and by the way, it's bogus. It's complete... And that's where I'm going with this story. Ooh, let's
go, baby. I love
this.
Yeah. No, it's a completely bogus a- assumption. The assumption of a natural monopoly, again, is it's always gonna be cheaper, and therefore better for the people if there's only one provider 'cause it's always going to be cheaper. But no one ever tests that. No one, no... And, and in the case of telephony, no one had ever tested that.
So I'm at the FCC and I say to one of my guys who's on my staff who's an economist, I say, "Well, what about this?" Hey,
do some math here.
Yeah. Uh, what, what do you think? Uh, uh, to which he said, "Well, first of all, it's never been tested, and I doubt it's true. I don't think it is a natural monopoly." Well, how do we find out?
We open it up for competition. Hmm. And this gets back to Reagan. So Reagan had a couple of, uh, rules and principles he lived by, and, um, one was that free markets are good- Mm-hmm ... and that competition is good- Yeah ... and that regulation is generally bad. Mm-hmm. Um, so we went into... Once I was at the commission, I was at an independent agency, so it's not like the president was calling us telling us what to do.
He n- he never had, he didn't really have any input after I left. But philosophically, we were very much in tune. So we basically said to the telephone industry after divestiture- Hey, you know what? You're, you're telling it's a n- it's a, it's a natural monopoly. If it is a natural monopoly, because you have all of the market now, no one will be able to compete with you.
If you're right that costs are always cheaper when you're providing more and more service to more and more customers, then no one's gonna be able to compete with you anyway, so what are you worried about? So we opened up the industry to competition. First thing we did is we said, "Sprint, you wanna compete with AT&T?
You know, be our guest."
And the C- Southern Pacific Railroad. Uh, that's what Sprint stands for, right? Yeah, that's how they- Southern Pacific Railroad, uh, International Telephone or something like that. And that,
and, and that had to do with how they achieved rights of way. Uh-
Yeah, they got the right of ways by running them down the railways.
They got the right of way, which were
very important. Amazing. But basically, uh, again, f- forgive me, Keith, 'cause I am getting kind of into the weeds here, but it's important and it's, it's a philosophical point as well. It's like, well, let's open it up and see. And so the FCC made a ruling that from now on anybody that wants to compete, assuming you meet certain criteria, can compete.
And what happened? Prices came down. It was not a natural monopoly.
Well, number one, I wanna say thank you for coming on. Uh, this is gonna be a couple part episode, everybody, just so you guys know. So you've been listening to Chopping It Up with 105.9 on Crazy Country. Come with us next week, Saturday. Uh, we'll be talking with Dennis Patrick about his h- history with the Reagan White House, breakup of AT&T, uh, telecommunications, and we're gonna get into the weeds a little bit more.
See you next week, ladies and gentlemen.
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opics Covered in Episode 52
Ronald Reagan and the Reagan Administration
Inside the Reagan White House
Former FCC Chairman Dennis Patrick
Federal Communications Commission (FCC)
The Breakup of AT&T
The Ma Bell Monopoly
American Telecommunications History
Communications Policy
Public Service and Government Leadership
White House Staff and Presidential Appointments
The West Wing
Christmas at the White House
Free Market Economics
Competition vs. Government Regulation
American Innovation
The History of Cable Television
The Origins of the Digital Revolution
Telecommunications Deregulation
Broadband and Internet Infrastructure
Mobile Phones and Wireless Communications
Streaming Technology
Podcasts and Digital Media
Leadership Lessons
Constitutional Government
Entrepreneurship
Technology History
Media History
Public Policy
American History
Santa Ynez Valley
California Ranching
Dennis Patrick Biography
Chopping It Up with Keith Saarloos
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Frequently Asked Questions About Dennis Patrick, the FCC, Ronald Reagan, and the Breakup of AT&T
Who is Dennis Patrick?
Dennis Patrick is an American attorney, communications policy leader, former Chairman of the Federal Communications Commission (FCC), former member of President Ronald Reagan's White House staff, media executive, rancher, author, and Santa Ynez Valley resident. During the Reagan Administration, Patrick helped oversee one of the most significant periods in American communications history, including the breakup of AT&T, increased competition in telecommunications, and policies that helped prepare the United States for the digital age. Following his government service, he held executive leadership positions with Time Warner, AOL, and National Geographic before moving to California's Santa Ynez Valley to operate Zaca Creek Ranch and write the novel Santa Ynez. Episode 52 of Chopping It Up with Keith Saarloos explores Dennis Patrick's remarkable career and his firsthand perspective on the people and decisions that reshaped American communications.
What did Dennis Patrick do as Chairman of the FCC?
As Chairman of the Federal Communications Commission during the Reagan Administration, Dennis Patrick helped guide the FCC through one of the most transformative periods in communications history. His work included implementing policies following the breakup of AT&T, encouraging competition within the telecommunications industry, modernizing broadcast regulations, expanding opportunities for cable television, and helping create the regulatory environment that allowed the digital communications revolution to flourish. Decisions made during Patrick's tenure continue to influence broadband internet, wireless communications, streaming platforms, mobile technology, podcasts, digital media, and the internet infrastructure used throughout the United States today.
Why was the breakup of AT&T so important?
The breakup of AT&T in 1984 marked one of the most significant antitrust actions in American history. Before the breakup, AT&T—commonly known as Ma Bell—operated as a government-regulated monopoly controlling most local and long-distance telephone service throughout the United States. Introducing competition encouraged innovation, reduced costs, increased consumer choice, and accelerated investment in telecommunications infrastructure. Many historians consider the breakup of AT&T to be one of the foundational events that eventually made broadband internet, smartphones, fiber-optic communications, streaming services, cloud computing, video conferencing, and today's digital economy possible. Dennis Patrick explains this historic transformation in Episode 52 of Chopping It Up with Keith Saarloos from the perspective of someone directly involved in implementing these changes.
What was Ronald Reagan like behind the scenes?
One of the most unique aspects of Episode 52 is Dennis Patrick's personal perspective on President Ronald Reagan. Having served on Reagan's White House staff, Dennis shares stories about working inside the West Wing, attending Christmas dinners at the White House, and observing the President away from cameras and public appearances. According to Patrick, Reagan's public personality closely reflected who he was in private—optimistic, approachable, humorous, deeply prepared, and focused on his long-term vision for the country. The episode provides listeners with a rare firsthand account of one of America's most influential presidents from someone who worked alongside him during his administration.
Episode 52 | Dennis Patrick (2 of 3) - Former FCC Chairman • Ronald Reagan's White House • The Breakup of AT&T
History is often remembered through presidents, elections, and headlines.
But many of the decisions that permanently change the way we live are made by people whose names most Americans have never heard.
Dennis Patrick is one of those people.
In Episode 52 of Chopping It Up with Keith Saarloos, Keith sits down with Dennis Patrick, former Chairman of the Federal Communications Commission (FCC), former member of President Ronald Reagan's White House staff, communications policy leader, media executive, rancher, author of the novel Santa Ynez, and Santa Ynez Valley resident, for the first installment of an extraordinary three-part conversation exploring the people, policies, and decisions that helped build the modern communications age.
During the 1980s, Dennis Patrick served at the center of one of the most transformative periods in American history. After joining the Reagan Administration, he eventually became Chairman of the FCC, where he helped oversee the implementation of the historic breakup of AT&T, the end of the Ma Bell monopoly, the expansion of competition throughout the telecommunications industry, and communications policies that accelerated innovation across television, radio, cable, wireless communications, and the emerging digital economy.
Keith and Dennis begin by discussing Dennis Patrick's childhood in Southern California before tracing the unexpected journey that led him from private law practice to the White House. Dennis shares personal stories about working alongside President Ronald Reagan, serving inside the West Wing, attending Christmas celebrations at the White House, and participating in the process of identifying and recommending leaders who would shape federal agencies during one of America's most influential presidential administrations.
The conversation then explores one of the defining moments in the history of American telecommunications: the breakup of AT&T. Dennis Patrick explains why government and industry believed competition would produce greater innovation, how the telecommunications marketplace changed after the breakup of the Bell System, and why those decisions helped create the foundation for broadband internet, fiber-optic communications, mobile phones, smartphones, streaming services, podcasts, cloud computing, video conferencing, satellite communications, artificial intelligence, and the connected digital world billions of people rely on every day.
Throughout the episode, Keith and Dennis discuss constitutional government, entrepreneurship, free markets, communications policy, public service, leadership, technological innovation, and the unintended consequences of decisions whose full impact would not be understood for decades. Rather than studying history through textbooks, listeners hear directly from one of the people who helped shape it.
This episode also serves as the beginning of a three-part series. Episode 53 examines the Fairness Doctrine, the First Amendment, freedom of speech, and the evolution of American broadcasting, while Episode 54 explores the digital revolution, Time Warner, AOL, National Geographic, and how emerging technologies transformed communications from analog television to today's internet-driven world.
Whether you're interested in Dennis Patrick, Ronald Reagan, the Reagan Administration, the Federal Communications Commission (FCC), the breakup of AT&T, Ma Bell, American telecommunications history, communications law, broadcasting, cable television, wireless communications, digital technology, public policy, leadership, entrepreneurship, American history, or the remarkable people who have shaped both the Santa Ynez Valley and the United States, this episode provides a rare firsthand account from one of the architects of the modern communications era.
This is more than a conversation about government.
It is the story of how a series of decisions made during the 1980s continue to influence nearly every phone call, internet search, podcast, livestream, text message, video conference, streaming service, and digital connection in the world today.
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Dennis Patrick is the former Chairman of the Federal Communications Commission (FCC), a former member of President Ronald Reagan's White House staff, media executive, author, rancher, and longtime Santa Ynez Valley resident. During his career, he helped oversee the breakup of AT&T, expanded competition in telecommunications, influenced broadcasting policy, and later served in executive leadership roles at Time Warner, AOL, and National Geographic before returning to California to build a working ranch in the Santa Ynez Valley.
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Hey everybody, it is 10:00 AM on a Saturday morning, and that means you're listening to Chopping It Up on Crazy Country 105.9, one of the last truly independently, locally owned radio stations left in California, broadcasting live and local from the heart of the Santa Ynez Valley. And I am your host, Keith Saarloos of Saarloos and Sons Wine Company, located in Los Olivos, California.
Today's guest is a man whose resume reads less like a career and more like Forrest Gump tour through some of the most important moments in American history. Dennis Patrick has sat in rooms where decisions were made that changed the very way American communities communicate. He served as President Ronald Reagan's White House staff before becoming the chairman, the chairman of the FCC, where he oversaw the most important and consequential eras in the communications history, including the breakup of AT&T and major changes to broadcasting regulations that transformed TV, radio, and the emerging media landscape.
Then, because apparently that wasn't enough, he jumped into the private sector and helped lead some of the biggest media companies on Earth: Time Warner, AOL, National Geographic. He helped launch the cable networks, navigate the dawn of the internet age, and expand one of the most recognized media brands in the world.
And then, in a move that only makes sense after you've lived a life, he traded Washington, D.C. and Manhattan ballrooms for a ranch in the Santa Ynez Valley. Today, Dennis raise- raises cattle, drinks coffee, wrangles alpacas and camels, writes books, and somehow found time to write a novel called Santa Ynez, a story rooted right here in a valley we all love.
Now, I've interviewed winemakers, ranchers, politicians, mus- musicians, entrepreneurs, pastors, and a whole cast of local characters on this show, but I can honestly say this is the first time I've ever had the opportunity to sit down with a former chairman of the FCC. Today, we're gonna talk about Reagan, Washington, free speech, media, cable television, AOL, National Geographic, ranching, writing, the Santa Ynez Valley, and what happens to a man when he spends his lifetime shaping industries before he decides to build a life under an oak tree instead.
Dennis Patrick, welcome to Chopping It Up Mr. Patrick, thank you for joining us on Chopping It Up. How are you doing today?
I'm doing very well. Good to be here.
Okay. Where do we start? Where do we start?
Wherever you want.
Where'd you grow up?
I grew up in Los Angeles, California.
In the city of?
In the city of.
No kidding. Born, born in Eagle Rock, which was very much a blue-collar, sort of, uh- Yes ... working class community when I was there. My dad was a Los Angeles police officer.
Really? My, uh, my mother, um, ex- excuse me, my wife's grandfather built that house, that concrete house that's built into the side of the wall, in Eagle Rock.
Really?
Yes. At
it- I, I know, I know exactly where that is.
It's, it's a historical home. He was a, uh, engineer and worked with concrete and a bunch of other stuff, and bought a piece of property that was basically, they said you couldn't build on it, and, uh, decided to build on it. That's- He
did, he did it anyway.
He did it anyway.
That's good.
Okay. So Eagle Rock, you grew up son of a officer.
Son of a police officer, yeah. Went to, uh, went to school there and, uh... Well, we actually, we moved to Orange County after that. Grew up in Huntington Beach.
Oh, did you really?
Yeah, yeah. So Huntington Beach, and then- Were you an Oiler?
And then I, well, I, well, I was. Huntington Beach Oiler. Wow, not a, not a lot of people know that.
I'm a Long Beach kid. Okay.
Okay. Yeah, I was, I was an Oiler. And then for college I went back to LA. I went to Occidental College- Mm-hmm ... and then UCLA Law School.
Really? So, uh, you know, we kinda led with a bunch of different things that you've done in your life.
Uh, let's go to Reagan, our, our most famous resident. How did you, uh, get involved with the, uh, Reagan presidency?
It really goes back to, to law school. I, uh, clerked for a guy named William Clark, William P. Clark, uh, who- That sounds
familiar ...
well, it, it should. Uh, Bill Clark was, uh, cer- a resident of California, a cowboy, uh, and, uh, he was on the California Supreme Court for a period of time, had been appointed by, uh, Governor Reagan.
He'd been Reagan's, uh, involved in Reagan's, uh, first gubernatorial campaign. Uh, and, uh, after, uh, Governor Reagan was elected, Bill, uh, joined the staff and really was the guy that hired a bunch of persons that later became quite famous, and that I got to know in Washington, guys like Ed Meese, uh, Cap Weinberger, et cetera.
So getting back to my, my journey and how I ended up at the, at the White House, Bill, um, uh, was appointed by Reagan to the California Supreme Court, and while I was in law school, I had the opportunity to clerk for him. Uh, now this was in '76, uh, so a number of years went by between '76 and '80. The president was elected in '80.
He, uh, leaned on Bill to come back and become the deputy secretary of, uh, state. Hmm. Uh, which is a funny story in and of itself. Uh, the president didn't know Al Haig very well and really wanted a trusted hand, uh, at the number two spot. So he got Bill to come back, and Bill out of the blue called me and said, "Hey, you wanna go to the White House?"
Uh- Unbelievable.
How old were you?
Uh, well, this was, you know, 1981. I was just 30.
What was that phone call like?
Well, it was, uh, it was, uh, a little shocking. Uh, I remembered, uh, uh, uh, that... I, I remember now that, uh, when I got that phone call, I'd been out partying the night before. So I wasn't in tip-top shape to be receiving that phone call, which was a little awkward.
But, uh, he asked whether, uh, I wanted to go back and join the White House staff. Bill wanted, uh, wanted some people that he knew- Mm-hmm ... uh, some Californians to be, uh, uh, at the White House, uh, with, as he always referred to the president, The Governor. Mm-hmm. He always t- n- he never heard him, uh, refer to him other than as The Governor, uh, or The Boss.
Yeah. Uh, so he wanted to have some people that he knew and trusted at the White House, and I was lucky enough to, uh, get that, uh, opportunity. I was practicing law in downtown LA at the time, and I was, uh, a tad bored, so I took a flyer.
Wow. So did we skip over anything between Huntington Beach and, and getting that phone call that we should touch on?
Uh, well, I was an astronaut for a while during that per- What? No, I just yeah.
Oh, come on.
Oh. I just
made that up. You, you had me on the ropes. You got me there. Yeah. I was like, "Oh my gosh, this is amazing." No, I, I
made that up. I, no, uh, uh-
By the way, I think you should do that every time. Yeah. That's fantastic.
Yeah. So- No, it was, uh, law school, practicing law, get the call. Uh, I had, uh, you know, I was d- had, had a, a good, uh, career potentially, you know, laid out, uh, in, in the practice of laws- Yeah ... with, uh, with a good firm. And so it was, in retrospect, it seems like a very easy decision. Well, you know, gee, who wouldn't go to the White House?
But at the time, you know, I was focused on the practice of law, and it was, it was going well at this firm. And, you know, I was really taking a flyer, uh, because the position I took at the White House was not a legal position. I wasn't hired as a lawyer.
Mm-hmm. So you pack your bags. You, you head east.
Uh- I headed east, yes.
You headed east. My daughter is currently working, uh, in Washington, DC this summer, and we're about to go see her for the sesquicentennial of our country. So 50 years later, uh, my daughter's, uh, walking on the same ground you
were. Yeah. Well, and it's an, it's, it's an exciting, obviously- Yeah ... tran- transition to make.
I, I remember that, uh, when, when I, I, I arrived in November of the first year of, uh, the president's two terms. Mm. Of course, he was president between 1981 and, and, uh, uh, 1989. Uh, and, uh, I remember arriving in November, and I had nothing but summer suits- Mm ... that I had worn in Los Angeles. Mm-hmm. And, uh, I, it was shockingly cold.
So tell us a little bit more about that presidency and, and you walking in those halls.
People ask me, um, uh what Reagan was like, I, I had the good fortune of, of getting to know the president, uh, Keith, and I, I, I say- when I say that, people think, "Well, gee, of course, you know, you were on the White House staff, you knew the president," but that's not really- Yeah
that doesn't- You can
work at the company, you don't
know the boss. E- exactly. Yeah. I mean, it, it doesn't necessarily follow that you're gonna know, uh, the, the president. But, um, I, I was friends with the Wick family, and the Wick family were personal friends of the president. Mm-hmm. So when the president, when, uh, the president and Nancy wanted to get together with old friends and put politics aside, the Wicks were usually there, and if the Wicks were there, I was there.
Wow. So I did, I did get to know the president, and that's a long way of answering your question, uh, or answering this, this issue of what Reagan was really like. I always say that Reagan was exactly like you would expect him to be. Mm-hmm. Uh, exactly how you would expect him to be based upon the way he appeared in public.
I- He wasn't any different in private than he was in public. Now, what do I mean by that? He was affable. Uh, he never had a bad word to speak, uh, of anyone, uh, even his opponents. Um, and he clearly held his, his view of the world, uh, in a, in a strong and, and, uh, uh, uh, well-developed w- way. But he, uh, wouldn't, uh, wouldn't really badmouth anybody.
He'd say, "Well, you know, we'll, uh, we'll, we'll lead them to the light." "You know, we'll t- we'll, we'll change their view." "We'll just get them to come around. Tip's not a bad guy." You know? So never, so the first thing, never heard him badmouth anybody. S- hell of a nice guy, always had a joke. You know, he had that sort of, uh, Irish, uh, storytelling-
Yeah
uh, quality. Uh, and I spent, you know, uh, a number of, uh, uh, holidays with him, Christmas, uh, 4th of July, and, uh, great guy. But in addition to that, a very, very thoughtful guy. I mean, he was very, very focused on policy. He had a very clear sense of, uh, what he wanted to do and what he wanted to accomplish with his, his presidency, and he stayed, he stayed locked on.
Mm-hmm. So, uh, he was, uh, he was a very interesting guy. Uh, being in the White House, I mean, you know, here I am, this kid from LA, you know, as you say, a Huntington Beach Oiler- Yeah ... uh, as it were.
I know
it. You know, where, you know, I- You're a
long way from home.
Oh, I was a long way from home. I, uh, uh, you know, I, I reflected, uh, at the time that, uh, many of my, uh, uh, new colleagues in the White House had gone to Ivy League schools and et cetera, and been to prep school, you know?
Yeah, you got a
little dirt on your neck.
Right, right. And so I, I, I re- uh, uh, uh, came from Huntington Beach High School, where, uh, we had a, uh, there was a bronze naked surfer- Yeah ... on the lawn of the, of the Huntington Beach High School. That's right. I mean, that was my high school, you know? That was a big
deal.
Yeah, so there. Uh, so- I
saw Dick Dale play in that f- in the, uh, Huntington Beach High School, uh-
Auditorium ...
auditorium. Yeah.
I think I, I, I, I, w- I, I, I did too. I must come back for that
Yeah, he d- I saw him on the reunion tour.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Uh, but i- so, you know, I, it was, it was definitely, uh, a, an interesting experience.
I mean, when you walk into the West Wing of, of the White House, you know, the- Had
you ever been there before?
I had been there, uh, I was involved in Republican politics when I was, uh, I think in high school, or it might have been a coup- first couple years of undergraduate college, and I'd gone back a couple of times.
Okay. And, but so I'd taken like a public tour- Sure ... sort of thing, but it's a little bit different when, uh- That's what
I, I was
just wondering ... you're, you're, you're waltzed into the residence, uh- Wow ... you know, uh, upstairs, uh, or as I say, working if your, your offices are in the West Wing, and, you know, you're 20 feet from the Oval Office.
It's, it's very, um, you know, it kind of is what you'd expect it to be. It's, it's exciting. You have a sense of, uh, of purpose. Mm-hmm. And, uh, you certainly are quite aware that there are things going on of great, great consequence. Um, what was fun about being in the Reagan administration is that, uh, I said the word, there, there was a sense of purpose.
Mm-hmm. Which is to say that the president made it very clear what the agenda was. Of course, this is, as you recall- Yeah ... uh, right after the Carter years, and there had been a certain, uh, certain number of problems, both economic problems and- Yep.
11% inflation.
Yeah, we had stagflation. Yep. And you had, uh, the humiliation of the United States with the Iranian hostage situation, which was resolved, as you recall, or any of the audience that remembers their history will recall, it was resolved actually on the day of the inauguration.
Mm-hmm. When the president was inaugurated, the hostages were finally released. But point is that w- we had had, as a country, we had, uh, suffered through some, some difficult times, and Reagan was, uh, was incredibly optimistic, incredibly positive, but it was more than that. He had an agenda that he believed would, uh, deliver us from that malaise, and I would argue that it did.
I've always heard, thought of the word resolute. I mean, there, I know that there is the Resolute Desk in the Oval Office, but from all of them, you know, I was a quite a young person at that time, and, and Ronald Reagan was my first president, and I always think it's very fitting that here we are in Santa Barbara County, and specifically the Santa Ynez Valley, and we get, we get to live in a place that he loved.
Yep.
And, uh, I've learned more and more, uh, through my time here about, you know, when he voted in Solvang, and ate, ate dinner in, uh, Ballard, and went to the movies in Buellton, and was a true resident of the Santa Ynez Valley. And, uh, one of my good friend's dad was his, uh, vet, you know, being Doug Herthiel.
Yeah. And every story I've heard, and, and you just confirm it a little bit more for me, about how there wasn't two different versions of the man. There was one. And we got, we all got to see it.
Yep. In public and private, same guy.
If you don't mi- mind me asking, you, you, you might be the only person I've ever met that, that's been in the residence part of the White House.
Um, could you tell us what that, that's a little bit like?
Well, it's not exactly like I was touring the, the, the, uh- No, I assume. You weren't laying in the beds ... you know, each of the, each of the, uh... Yeah, I would go, and, "Well, let's, let's go bounce on Ron's bed." You know, I, I resisted that. But, uh, uh, you know, it's, it, it, it's beautiful.
And, and, and, uh, you know, it's, uh, uh, w- we were mostly in the, the, obviously the, the entertainment, uh, quarters, the living room, if you will, and the dining room. Mm-hmm. I, I remember, I will tell you one story. When the first time I was invited to, uh, the, the residence, it was Christmas dinner. And, uh, um- No
big deal
so, uh, the, the president's, uh, needless to say, at the head of the table. And, um, I remember George Will was there, and the, the Wicks were there, and, and, uh, and, uh, well, I, I was there, and, uh- Yeah, you didn't have
anywhere to go,
I guess ... I'm about 32 years old, right? Right. And I sit down, and needless to say, I'm thinking, "This is..."
I mean, I was on the White House staff, but that's a little different than being in the residence- Yeah ... having Christmas dinner with, dinner with the president. And, uh, uh, so we sit down, uh, for dinner, and the president tur- This is, you know, well, p- p- it was mildly horrific, actually. The president turns to me and says, "Well, Dennis, would you, would you ask the blessing?"
You're kidding. Yeah. You're kidding. They didn't know. And I thought- You're
kidding ...
I thought, "Oh my golly, w- how, what exactly, uh, does one say or ask for when, you know, the leader of the free world..." Yeah. And r- remember, this is the early '80s. Well, you're talking to the- So we're still in the thick of it- Yes
with, uh, with the then Soviet Union.
You're sitting with number two talking to number one.
Yeah, it's, yeah. It is, uh, yeah, exactly. Uh, uh, so that was, that was a little bit of pressure. I'm, I'm sure it was, uh... Well, he didn't throw me out, so it must've been adequate.
Well, good job. So from your time there, tell us about your progression.
I mean, I mentioned that you were president of the FCC. Uh, tell us the next steps.
I, uh, worked in, on the White House staff for about two years. I, I sh- I should say, since we made reference to it, uh, that what I was doing, I was, uh, associate director of presidential personnel. So our-- the job of the personnel, uh, shop in the White House is to interview candidates for presidential appointments.
So- Really? Okay ... if someone is going, if someone is going to be appointed, um, you know, assistant secretary of defense, uh, or assistant secretary of state, or secretary of state for that matter- Really ... anything that required a Senate confirmation and a direct nomination by the president obviously is, uh, a person that's going to be vetted and, uh, uh, FBI background check and, and then one has to vet the, the, the politics of getting this, this person confirmed.
So all of that is brokered by, uh, the personnel shop. So I was associate director of president per-personnel when-- had a number of agencies, including the Department of Justice, uh, within my, my purview. So our job was to interview people and make recommendations, uh, to the president. So I did that for a couple of years
I
had- What a, what a trusted position.
It was a, it was a significant position. I mean, clearly the president is, is not necessarily going to have candidates for all of the... I mean, there are hundreds of positions. Yeah. That even at the, even at the top level, these, these positions that require Senate confirmation, there's still many, many, many of those positions.
So the president obviously doesn't have the time to- Sure ... to vet five candidates for that position, and then, and then make a judgment. So that was really our... It was our job to make those recommendations. Obviously, at the end of the day, it was the president's, the president's call. Uh, but so that's what we did, and it was, uh, it was an interesting job.
But what I was gonna say is, in getting back to answer your question, I had all the independent regulatory... I had the Department of Justice. I also had all the independent regulatory agencies in my jurisdiction, so that's the SEC, the ICC, the Federal Communications Commission, all the independent agencies, uh, as well as, as DOJ.
And at that time there was... This is, uh, the early '80s. Uh, there was a lot of change, uh, on the cusp in the telecommunications and broadcasting, uh, industry. Mm-hmm. So I followed with some interest one of my agencies, which was the FCC, uh, with
this- At that time, there was probably what, three, four channels maybe.
Yeah.
You know, not very much. Yeah, yeah. There's no cable television. There's no satellite television. Yeah. There's no podcasting. There was TV.
And it was analog.
And analog, yes.
And, and, and therein lies really the, uh, the key to, uh, the revolution that, that, that we've enjoyed in, in communications. The, the, the transition from, uh, analog to digital is what made streaming possible- Yeah
uh, made the proliferation of channel, uh, capacity possible, uh, uh, created the possibility of the integration of voice, video, and data- Yeah ... which is another revolution. None of that existed. This is in the early '80s when I was at the White House, and then when I went to- Yeah ... the commission, which was at the very end of 19, uh, 83, uh, and, uh, assumed my position really the beginning of '84.
Stayed on for a couple years, and then the president, uh, uh, apparently he remembered my, my, uh, my, my blessing from Christmas, because he ended up appointing me chairman of the FCC. So, uh, uh, I'm kidding. It probably wasn't my, uh, my prayer at Christmas. But I served as commissioner for, uh, a few years and then was appointed, uh, chairman in, in 1987.
But getting back to the more important story- Yeah ... uh, uh, the, the, the, the changes in telecom that were going on were phenomenal. So you had the transition from analog to digital. Uh, you had the optimization of satellite capacity and the use, uh, of satellite capacity for the distribution of, of broadcast signals, which hadn't been done.
Yeah. Uh, HBO, I think, was the, the, the first to do that. Um, cable at the time was, uh, uh, a- an antenna service. I mean, cable, as you, you probably know, uh, was, uh, a technology that was intended to ex- effectively extend the antenna of a broadcast television community where they couldn't get over-the-air, uh- Run pipe
right to the
house
yeah, run pipe to the house as a way of taking the three networks that we had at the time- Mm-hmm ... uh, uh, uh, a- and, and, and getting those signals into homes where there was, uh, uh, interference that, that, that would preclude that. But then someone had the bright idea, "Well, wait a second. Why do we just have to retransmit the three over-the-air broadcast networks that we have?
Why can't we create new, new, uh, channel capa- or new channels, new programming?" And that, that was a bit of a revolution. But-
I think you're underselling how big of a revolution that is, because one of the aspects that I was just thinking about as you were saying that, um, like, currently, we could talk about it later, I always think, like, SpaceX is very im- important.
I see those rockets go off, and I watch them all the time. And one of the things that I have seen from just that, uh- transfer or the, that transformative system is, uh, there were so many people that were still on AOL dial-up up until just a few years ago that are living in rural, uh, places in this country where their only way to get the internet was either a very, very slow satellite system or, uh, AOL dial-up.
And now y- anybody in the continental United States can go buy a Starlink and put it on top of their house- Yep ... and they have high-speed internet access, and they're up to speed with every single person that lives in a city.
Right. Right. And, and-
I didn't mean to derail you, but as you were- No ... saying that, one of the things that it was just popping into my mind is when you, when you entered that, uh, it, that working at the White House, if no one had an email address.
No.
Right? No, no. And by the time you're leaving, uh, that's definitely transforming.
Right. It's transforming towards ... Cer- certainly by the time I was leaving the commission in, in 1989 at the end of, uh, the Reagan administration. But no, you make a really good point. I was lucky enough to be there, and lucky enough to be, uh, in particular on the FCC at a time of just seismic change.
And as you, as your example points out, there are changes that take place that are incremental- Sure ... and then there are other changes that profoundly change everything.
There are years nothing happens, and then there are days that decades happen.
Yeah, that decades happen. And, and I was, uh, uh, witness and arguably party to a couple of those, those changes, uh, that, that occurred,
uh, in, in- And trying to figure out how to navigate it, in all honesty
uh, trying to figure out, because th- those were uncharted, uh, territories. Wild West. So, so just as, uh, as one example When I was, uh, when I transitioned from the White House to the FCC as a commissioner, before I became chairman of the FCC, I was a commissioner for, uh, for some period of time before the, before I became chairman.
But in any case, uh, you go back to January of 1984. January of 1984 was when the divestiture of AT&T became effective. Hmm. Now, for our listeners out there that have no recollection of this, we used to have ... Just like we had three broadcast networks for television, and all of your programming decisions were made by three individuals in New York- Mm-hmm
that decided what you were gonna watch, which is, by the way, no longer the case. More on that later. Yes. In telephony, there was one company, and it was called AT&T, and it provided both long distance, and it owned all of the local, uh, uh, uh, telephone, uh, operators as well. It was Ma Bell. Uh, a judge named Judge Green, a federal, uh, district court judge, uh, who heard an antitrust case against AT&T, found that that was anti-competitive, uh, and violated the antitrust, or AT&T had violated the antitrust laws, and so, uh, decided that AT&T had to be broken up.
He did not decide what was to follow the breakup of AT&T. Hmm. And so that fell to the FCC to figure out. Um, that was a huge sort of systemic change in the provision of telecommunications. So we had a decision to make. Um, one, one footnote When I was appointed, uh, as I say, at the end of '83, I assumed my position at the commission in ear- early 1984.
It was literally, uh, a- at the, uh, at the, at the, the, the very start of... It was almost literally the day that AT&T was broken up and we had a, a new world order. And I remember someone, uh, saying, uh, or d- me saying. I said, "Well, you know, I was a, um, a business litigation lawyer. I mean, I'm really not all that well-versed, certainly in telephony- Yeah
uh, you know, in telecommunications." And the guy I was talking to, who was already at the commission, he says, "Well, it really doesn't matter because no one knows anything now because all of the rules just changed." Mm-hmm. And that was very much, very much the case. The reason I raise this is it kind of ties together a couple of points that we've already been, been talking about.
One huge change, seismic change, uh, in, in regulation that, that, uh, that ends up affecting real people. It ends up affecting all of us. But secondly, policy and politics and Ronald Reagan. When AT&T was broken up, the presumption was, and it certainly was the position of, of the telephone industry, the incumbent existing telephone industry, that AT&T would, uh, uh, continue to own and control long distance, and there would be separate companies that would control, as monopolies- Mm-hmm
as regulated monopolies, uh, uh, telephone service, telephony, in the various areas. And those-
Similar to airline industries kind of back, back in the day.
Yeah, exactly. And, and, uh, so the assumption was that there would be... That AT&T would be broken up, but the provision of telephone service would still be essentially a monopoly service.
They would just be smaller monopolies that covered less geog- uh, uh, geography, if you will. Mm-hmm. The reason for that, I don't wanna get too far into the weeds here, but, but a little- It is fascinating ... a little bit into the weeds. Th- th- the argument in favor of having telephone service be provided by a monop- uh, monopoly service provider, um, was the assumption th- uh, was that, uh, the provision of telephone service was a natural monopoly.
And a natural monopoly is, it's an economic notion, but it's basically the argument that the, uh, the provision of that service, the cost of providing that service will always fall over the demand curve. So the more demand you have, which is to say the more service you're providing- Mm-hmm ... which is to say if you're a monopoly, you're always going to be able to provide the service cheaper than if you break it up and there's two companies doing it.
Yes. That's, that would be a na- Two
wires versus one wire.
Yeah, yeah. So the, the- Is
that kinda similar to, say, PG&E in, uh, California? It's
the same ass- it's the, it's the same assumption. Okay. And, and by the way, it's bogus. It's complete... And that's where I'm going with this story. Ooh, let's
go, baby. I love
this.
Yeah. No, it's a completely bogus a- assumption. The assumption of a natural monopoly, again, is it's always gonna be cheaper, and therefore better for the people if there's only one provider 'cause it's always going to be cheaper. But no one ever tests that. No one, no... And, and in the case of telephony, no one had ever tested that.
So I'm at the FCC and I say to one of my guys who's on my staff who's an economist, I say, "Well, what about this?" Hey,
do some math here.
Yeah. Uh, what, what do you think? Uh, uh, to which he said, "Well, first of all, it's never been tested, and I doubt it's true. I don't think it is a natural monopoly." Well, how do we find out?
We open it up for competition. Hmm. And this gets back to Reagan. So Reagan had a couple of, uh, rules and principles he lived by, and, um, one was that free markets are good- Mm-hmm ... and that competition is good- Yeah ... and that regulation is generally bad. Mm-hmm. Um, so we went into... Once I was at the commission, I was at an independent agency, so it's not like the president was calling us telling us what to do.
He n- he never had, he didn't really have any input after I left. But philosophically, we were very much in tune. So we basically said to the telephone industry after divestiture- Hey, you know what? You're, you're telling it's a n- it's a, it's a natural monopoly. If it is a natural monopoly, because you have all of the market now, no one will be able to compete with you.
If you're right that costs are always cheaper when you're providing more and more service to more and more customers, then no one's gonna be able to compete with you anyway, so what are you worried about? So we opened up the industry to competition. First thing we did is we said, "Sprint, you wanna compete with AT&T?
You know, be our guest."
And the C- Southern Pacific Railroad. Uh, that's what Sprint stands for, right? Yeah, that's how they- Southern Pacific Railroad, uh, International Telephone or something like that. And that,
and, and that had to do with how they achieved rights of way. Uh-
Yeah, they got the right of ways by running them down the railways.
They got the right of way, which were
very important. Amazing. But basically, uh, again, f- forgive me, Keith, 'cause I am getting kind of into the weeds here, but it's important and it's, it's a philosophical point as well. It's like, well, let's open it up and see. And so the FCC made a ruling that from now on anybody that wants to compete, assuming you meet certain criteria, can compete.
And what happened? Prices came down. It was not a natural monopoly.
Well, number one, I wanna say thank you for coming on. Uh, this is gonna be a couple part episode, everybody, just so you guys know. So you've been listening to Chopping It Up with 105.9 on Crazy Country. Come with us next week, Saturday. Uh, we'll be talking with Dennis Patrick about his h- history with the Reagan White House, breakup of AT&T, uh, telecommunications, and we're gonna get into the weeds a little bit more.
See you next week, ladies and gentlemen.
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opics Covered in Episode 52
Ronald Reagan and the Reagan Administration
Inside the Reagan White House
Former FCC Chairman Dennis Patrick
Federal Communications Commission (FCC)
The Breakup of AT&T
The Ma Bell Monopoly
American Telecommunications History
Communications Policy
Public Service and Government Leadership
White House Staff and Presidential Appointments
The West Wing
Christmas at the White House
Free Market Economics
Competition vs. Government Regulation
American Innovation
The History of Cable Television
The Origins of the Digital Revolution
Telecommunications Deregulation
Broadband and Internet Infrastructure
Mobile Phones and Wireless Communications
Streaming Technology
Podcasts and Digital Media
Leadership Lessons
Constitutional Government
Entrepreneurship
Technology History
Media History
Public Policy
American History
Santa Ynez Valley
California Ranching
Dennis Patrick Biography
Chopping It Up with Keith Saarloos
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Frequently Asked Questions About Dennis Patrick, the FCC, Ronald Reagan, and the Breakup of AT&T
Who is Dennis Patrick?
Dennis Patrick is an American attorney, communications policy leader, former Chairman of the Federal Communications Commission (FCC), former member of President Ronald Reagan's White House staff, media executive, rancher, author, and Santa Ynez Valley resident. During the Reagan Administration, Patrick helped oversee one of the most significant periods in American communications history, including the breakup of AT&T, increased competition in telecommunications, and policies that helped prepare the United States for the digital age. Following his government service, he held executive leadership positions with Time Warner, AOL, and National Geographic before moving to California's Santa Ynez Valley to operate Zaca Creek Ranch and write the novel Santa Ynez. Episode 52 of Chopping It Up with Keith Saarloos explores Dennis Patrick's remarkable career and his firsthand perspective on the people and decisions that reshaped American communications.
What did Dennis Patrick do as Chairman of the FCC?
As Chairman of the Federal Communications Commission during the Reagan Administration, Dennis Patrick helped guide the FCC through one of the most transformative periods in communications history. His work included implementing policies following the breakup of AT&T, encouraging competition within the telecommunications industry, modernizing broadcast regulations, expanding opportunities for cable television, and helping create the regulatory environment that allowed the digital communications revolution to flourish. Decisions made during Patrick's tenure continue to influence broadband internet, wireless communications, streaming platforms, mobile technology, podcasts, digital media, and the internet infrastructure used throughout the United States today.
Why was the breakup of AT&T so important?
The breakup of AT&T in 1984 marked one of the most significant antitrust actions in American history. Before the breakup, AT&T—commonly known as Ma Bell—operated as a government-regulated monopoly controlling most local and long-distance telephone service throughout the United States. Introducing competition encouraged innovation, reduced costs, increased consumer choice, and accelerated investment in telecommunications infrastructure. Many historians consider the breakup of AT&T to be one of the foundational events that eventually made broadband internet, smartphones, fiber-optic communications, streaming services, cloud computing, video conferencing, and today's digital economy possible. Dennis Patrick explains this historic transformation in Episode 52 of Chopping It Up with Keith Saarloos from the perspective of someone directly involved in implementing these changes.
What was Ronald Reagan like behind the scenes?
One of the most unique aspects of Episode 52 is Dennis Patrick's personal perspective on President Ronald Reagan. Having served on Reagan's White House staff, Dennis shares stories about working inside the West Wing, attending Christmas dinners at the White House, and observing the President away from cameras and public appearances. According to Patrick, Reagan's public personality closely reflected who he was in private—optimistic, approachable, humorous, deeply prepared, and focused on his long-term vision for the country. The episode provides listeners with a rare firsthand account of one of America's most influential presidents from someone who worked alongside him during his administration.
Episode 52 | Dennis Patrick (1 of 3) - Former FCC Chairman • Ronald Reagan's White House • The Breakup of AT&T
History is often remembered through presidents, elections, and headlines.
But many of the decisions that permanently change the way we live are made by people whose names most Americans have never heard.
Dennis Patrick is one of those people.
In Episode 52 of Chopping It Up with Keith Saarloos, Keith sits down with Dennis Patrick, former Chairman of the Federal Communications Commission (FCC), former member of President Ronald Reagan's White House staff, communications policy leader, media executive, rancher, author of the novel Santa Ynez, and Santa Ynez Valley resident, for the first installment of an extraordinary three-part conversation exploring the people, policies, and decisions that helped build the modern communications age.
During the 1980s, Dennis Patrick served at the center of one of the most transformative periods in American history. After joining the Reagan Administration, he eventually became Chairman of the FCC, where he helped oversee the implementation of the historic breakup of AT&T, the end of the Ma Bell monopoly, the expansion of competition throughout the telecommunications industry, and communications policies that accelerated innovation across television, radio, cable, wireless communications, and the emerging digital economy.
Keith and Dennis begin by discussing Dennis Patrick's childhood in Southern California before tracing the unexpected journey that led him from private law practice to the White House. Dennis shares personal stories about working alongside President Ronald Reagan, serving inside the West Wing, attending Christmas celebrations at the White House, and participating in the process of identifying and recommending leaders who would shape federal agencies during one of America's most influential presidential administrations.
The conversation then explores one of the defining moments in the history of American telecommunications: the breakup of AT&T. Dennis Patrick explains why government and industry believed competition would produce greater innovation, how the telecommunications marketplace changed after the breakup of the Bell System, and why those decisions helped create the foundation for broadband internet, fiber-optic communications, mobile phones, smartphones, streaming services, podcasts, cloud computing, video conferencing, satellite communications, artificial intelligence, and the connected digital world billions of people rely on every day.
Throughout the episode, Keith and Dennis discuss constitutional government, entrepreneurship, free markets, communications policy, public service, leadership, technological innovation, and the unintended consequences of decisions whose full impact would not be understood for decades. Rather than studying history through textbooks, listeners hear directly from one of the people who helped shape it.
This episode also serves as the beginning of a three-part series. Episode 53 examines the Fairness Doctrine, the First Amendment, freedom of speech, and the evolution of American broadcasting, while Episode 54 explores the digital revolution, Time Warner, AOL, National Geographic, and how emerging technologies transformed communications from analog television to today's internet-driven world.
Whether you're interested in Dennis Patrick, Ronald Reagan, the Reagan Administration, the Federal Communications Commission (FCC), the breakup of AT&T, Ma Bell, American telecommunications history, communications law, broadcasting, cable television, wireless communications, digital technology, public policy, leadership, entrepreneurship, American history, or the remarkable people who have shaped both the Santa Ynez Valley and the United States, this episode provides a rare firsthand account from one of the architects of the modern communications era.
This is more than a conversation about government.
It is the story of how a series of decisions made during the 1980s continue to influence nearly every phone call, internet search, podcast, livestream, text message, video conference, streaming service, and digital connection in the world today.
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Dennis Patrick is the former Chairman of the Federal Communications Commission (FCC), a former member of President Ronald Reagan's White House staff, media executive, author, rancher, and longtime Santa Ynez Valley resident. During his career, he helped oversee the breakup of AT&T, expanded competition in telecommunications, influenced broadcasting policy, and later served in executive leadership roles at Time Warner, AOL, and National Geographic before returning to California to build a working ranch in the Santa Ynez Valley.
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Hey everybody, it is 10:00 AM on a Saturday morning, and that means you're listening to Chopping It Up on Crazy Country 105.9, one of the last truly independently, locally owned radio stations left in California, broadcasting live and local from the heart of the Santa Ynez Valley. And I am your host, Keith Saarloos of Saarloos and Sons Wine Company, located in Los Olivos, California.
Today's guest is a man whose resume reads less like a career and more like Forrest Gump tour through some of the most important moments in American history. Dennis Patrick has sat in rooms where decisions were made that changed the very way American communities communicate. He served as President Ronald Reagan's White House staff before becoming the chairman, the chairman of the FCC, where he oversaw the most important and consequential eras in the communications history, including the breakup of AT&T and major changes to broadcasting regulations that transformed TV, radio, and the emerging media landscape.
Then, because apparently that wasn't enough, he jumped into the private sector and helped lead some of the biggest media companies on Earth: Time Warner, AOL, National Geographic. He helped launch the cable networks, navigate the dawn of the internet age, and expand one of the most recognized media brands in the world.
And then, in a move that only makes sense after you've lived a life, he traded Washington, D.C. and Manhattan ballrooms for a ranch in the Santa Ynez Valley. Today, Dennis raise- raises cattle, drinks coffee, wrangles alpacas and camels, writes books, and somehow found time to write a novel called Santa Ynez, a story rooted right here in a valley we all love.
Now, I've interviewed winemakers, ranchers, politicians, mus- musicians, entrepreneurs, pastors, and a whole cast of local characters on this show, but I can honestly say this is the first time I've ever had the opportunity to sit down with a former chairman of the FCC. Today, we're gonna talk about Reagan, Washington, free speech, media, cable television, AOL, National Geographic, ranching, writing, the Santa Ynez Valley, and what happens to a man when he spends his lifetime shaping industries before he decides to build a life under an oak tree instead.
Dennis Patrick, welcome to Chopping It Up Mr. Patrick, thank you for joining us on Chopping It Up. How are you doing today?
I'm doing very well. Good to be here.
Okay. Where do we start? Where do we start?
Wherever you want.
Where'd you grow up?
I grew up in Los Angeles, California.
In the city of?
In the city of.
No kidding. Born, born in Eagle Rock, which was very much a blue-collar, sort of, uh- Yes ... working class community when I was there. My dad was a Los Angeles police officer.
Really? My, uh, my mother, um, ex- excuse me, my wife's grandfather built that house, that concrete house that's built into the side of the wall, in Eagle Rock.
Really?
Yes. At
it- I, I know, I know exactly where that is.
It's, it's a historical home. He was a, uh, engineer and worked with concrete and a bunch of other stuff, and bought a piece of property that was basically, they said you couldn't build on it, and, uh, decided to build on it. That's- He
did, he did it anyway.
He did it anyway.
That's good.
Okay. So Eagle Rock, you grew up son of a officer.
Son of a police officer, yeah. Went to, uh, went to school there and, uh... Well, we actually, we moved to Orange County after that. Grew up in Huntington Beach.
Oh, did you really?
Yeah, yeah. So Huntington Beach, and then- Were you an Oiler?
And then I, well, I, well, I was. Huntington Beach Oiler. Wow, not a, not a lot of people know that.
I'm a Long Beach kid. Okay.
Okay. Yeah, I was, I was an Oiler. And then for college I went back to LA. I went to Occidental College- Mm-hmm ... and then UCLA Law School.
Really? So, uh, you know, we kinda led with a bunch of different things that you've done in your life.
Uh, let's go to Reagan, our, our most famous resident. How did you, uh, get involved with the, uh, Reagan presidency?
It really goes back to, to law school. I, uh, clerked for a guy named William Clark, William P. Clark, uh, who- That sounds
familiar ...
well, it, it should. Uh, Bill Clark was, uh, cer- a resident of California, a cowboy, uh, and, uh, he was on the California Supreme Court for a period of time, had been appointed by, uh, Governor Reagan.
He'd been Reagan's, uh, involved in Reagan's, uh, first gubernatorial campaign. Uh, and, uh, after, uh, Governor Reagan was elected, Bill, uh, joined the staff and really was the guy that hired a bunch of persons that later became quite famous, and that I got to know in Washington, guys like Ed Meese, uh, Cap Weinberger, et cetera.
So getting back to my, my journey and how I ended up at the, at the White House, Bill, um, uh, was appointed by Reagan to the California Supreme Court, and while I was in law school, I had the opportunity to clerk for him. Uh, now this was in '76, uh, so a number of years went by between '76 and '80. The president was elected in '80.
He, uh, leaned on Bill to come back and become the deputy secretary of, uh, state. Hmm. Uh, which is a funny story in and of itself. Uh, the president didn't know Al Haig very well and really wanted a trusted hand, uh, at the number two spot. So he got Bill to come back, and Bill out of the blue called me and said, "Hey, you wanna go to the White House?"
Uh- Unbelievable.
How old were you?
Uh, well, this was, you know, 1981. I was just 30.
What was that phone call like?
Well, it was, uh, it was, uh, a little shocking. Uh, I remembered, uh, uh, uh, that... I, I remember now that, uh, when I got that phone call, I'd been out partying the night before. So I wasn't in tip-top shape to be receiving that phone call, which was a little awkward.
But, uh, he asked whether, uh, I wanted to go back and join the White House staff. Bill wanted, uh, wanted some people that he knew- Mm-hmm ... uh, some Californians to be, uh, uh, at the White House, uh, with, as he always referred to the president, The Governor. Mm-hmm. He always t- n- he never heard him, uh, refer to him other than as The Governor, uh, or The Boss.
Yeah. Uh, so he wanted to have some people that he knew and trusted at the White House, and I was lucky enough to, uh, get that, uh, opportunity. I was practicing law in downtown LA at the time, and I was, uh, a tad bored, so I took a flyer.
Wow. So did we skip over anything between Huntington Beach and, and getting that phone call that we should touch on?
Uh, well, I was an astronaut for a while during that per- What? No, I just yeah.
Oh, come on.
Oh. I just
made that up. You, you had me on the ropes. You got me there. Yeah. I was like, "Oh my gosh, this is amazing." No, I, I
made that up. I, no, uh, uh-
By the way, I think you should do that every time. Yeah. That's fantastic.
Yeah. So- No, it was, uh, law school, practicing law, get the call. Uh, I had, uh, you know, I was d- had, had a, a good, uh, career potentially, you know, laid out, uh, in, in the practice of laws- Yeah ... with, uh, with a good firm. And so it was, in retrospect, it seems like a very easy decision. Well, you know, gee, who wouldn't go to the White House?
But at the time, you know, I was focused on the practice of law, and it was, it was going well at this firm. And, you know, I was really taking a flyer, uh, because the position I took at the White House was not a legal position. I wasn't hired as a lawyer.
Mm-hmm. So you pack your bags. You, you head east.
Uh- I headed east, yes.
You headed east. My daughter is currently working, uh, in Washington, DC this summer, and we're about to go see her for the sesquicentennial of our country. So 50 years later, uh, my daughter's, uh, walking on the same ground you
were. Yeah. Well, and it's an, it's, it's an exciting, obviously- Yeah ... tran- transition to make.
I, I remember that, uh, when, when I, I, I arrived in November of the first year of, uh, the president's two terms. Mm. Of course, he was president between 1981 and, and, uh, uh, 1989. Uh, and, uh, I remember arriving in November, and I had nothing but summer suits- Mm ... that I had worn in Los Angeles. Mm-hmm. And, uh, I, it was shockingly cold.
So tell us a little bit more about that presidency and, and you walking in those halls.
People ask me, um, uh what Reagan was like, I, I had the good fortune of, of getting to know the president, uh, Keith, and I, I, I say- when I say that, people think, "Well, gee, of course, you know, you were on the White House staff, you knew the president," but that's not really- Yeah
that doesn't- You can
work at the company, you don't
know the boss. E- exactly. Yeah. I mean, it, it doesn't necessarily follow that you're gonna know, uh, the, the president. But, um, I, I was friends with the Wick family, and the Wick family were personal friends of the president. Mm-hmm. So when the president, when, uh, the president and Nancy wanted to get together with old friends and put politics aside, the Wicks were usually there, and if the Wicks were there, I was there.
Wow. So I did, I did get to know the president, and that's a long way of answering your question, uh, or answering this, this issue of what Reagan was really like. I always say that Reagan was exactly like you would expect him to be. Mm-hmm. Uh, exactly how you would expect him to be based upon the way he appeared in public.
I- He wasn't any different in private than he was in public. Now, what do I mean by that? He was affable. Uh, he never had a bad word to speak, uh, of anyone, uh, even his opponents. Um, and he clearly held his, his view of the world, uh, in a, in a strong and, and, uh, uh, uh, well-developed w- way. But he, uh, wouldn't, uh, wouldn't really badmouth anybody.
He'd say, "Well, you know, we'll, uh, we'll, we'll lead them to the light." "You know, we'll t- we'll, we'll change their view." "We'll just get them to come around. Tip's not a bad guy." You know? So never, so the first thing, never heard him badmouth anybody. S- hell of a nice guy, always had a joke. You know, he had that sort of, uh, Irish, uh, storytelling-
Yeah
uh, quality. Uh, and I spent, you know, uh, a number of, uh, uh, holidays with him, Christmas, uh, 4th of July, and, uh, great guy. But in addition to that, a very, very thoughtful guy. I mean, he was very, very focused on policy. He had a very clear sense of, uh, what he wanted to do and what he wanted to accomplish with his, his presidency, and he stayed, he stayed locked on.
Mm-hmm. So, uh, he was, uh, he was a very interesting guy. Uh, being in the White House, I mean, you know, here I am, this kid from LA, you know, as you say, a Huntington Beach Oiler- Yeah ... uh, as it were.
I know
it. You know, where, you know, I- You're a
long way from home.
Oh, I was a long way from home. I, uh, uh, you know, I, I reflected, uh, at the time that, uh, many of my, uh, uh, new colleagues in the White House had gone to Ivy League schools and et cetera, and been to prep school, you know?
Yeah, you got a
little dirt on your neck.
Right, right. And so I, I, I re- uh, uh, uh, came from Huntington Beach High School, where, uh, we had a, uh, there was a bronze naked surfer- Yeah ... on the lawn of the, of the Huntington Beach High School. That's right. I mean, that was my high school, you know? That was a big
deal.
Yeah, so there. Uh, so- I
saw Dick Dale play in that f- in the, uh, Huntington Beach High School, uh-
Auditorium ...
auditorium. Yeah.
I think I, I, I, I, w- I, I, I did too. I must come back for that
Yeah, he d- I saw him on the reunion tour.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Uh, but i- so, you know, I, it was, it was definitely, uh, a, an interesting experience.
I mean, when you walk into the West Wing of, of the White House, you know, the- Had
you ever been there before?
I had been there, uh, I was involved in Republican politics when I was, uh, I think in high school, or it might have been a coup- first couple years of undergraduate college, and I'd gone back a couple of times.
Okay. And, but so I'd taken like a public tour- Sure ... sort of thing, but it's a little bit different when, uh- That's what
I, I was
just wondering ... you're, you're, you're waltzed into the residence, uh- Wow ... you know, uh, upstairs, uh, or as I say, working if your, your offices are in the West Wing, and, you know, you're 20 feet from the Oval Office.
It's, it's very, um, you know, it kind of is what you'd expect it to be. It's, it's exciting. You have a sense of, uh, of purpose. Mm-hmm. And, uh, you certainly are quite aware that there are things going on of great, great consequence. Um, what was fun about being in the Reagan administration is that, uh, I said the word, there, there was a sense of purpose.
Mm-hmm. Which is to say that the president made it very clear what the agenda was. Of course, this is, as you recall- Yeah ... uh, right after the Carter years, and there had been a certain, uh, certain number of problems, both economic problems and- Yep.
11% inflation.
Yeah, we had stagflation. Yep. And you had, uh, the humiliation of the United States with the Iranian hostage situation, which was resolved, as you recall, or any of the audience that remembers their history will recall, it was resolved actually on the day of the inauguration.
Mm-hmm. When the president was inaugurated, the hostages were finally released. But point is that w- we had had, as a country, we had, uh, suffered through some, some difficult times, and Reagan was, uh, was incredibly optimistic, incredibly positive, but it was more than that. He had an agenda that he believed would, uh, deliver us from that malaise, and I would argue that it did.
I've always heard, thought of the word resolute. I mean, there, I know that there is the Resolute Desk in the Oval Office, but from all of them, you know, I was a quite a young person at that time, and, and Ronald Reagan was my first president, and I always think it's very fitting that here we are in Santa Barbara County, and specifically the Santa Ynez Valley, and we get, we get to live in a place that he loved.
Yep.
And, uh, I've learned more and more, uh, through my time here about, you know, when he voted in Solvang, and ate, ate dinner in, uh, Ballard, and went to the movies in Buellton, and was a true resident of the Santa Ynez Valley. And, uh, one of my good friend's dad was his, uh, vet, you know, being Doug Herthiel.
Yeah. And every story I've heard, and, and you just confirm it a little bit more for me, about how there wasn't two different versions of the man. There was one. And we got, we all got to see it.
Yep. In public and private, same guy.
If you don't mi- mind me asking, you, you, you might be the only person I've ever met that, that's been in the residence part of the White House.
Um, could you tell us what that, that's a little bit like?
Well, it's not exactly like I was touring the, the, the, uh- No, I assume. You weren't laying in the beds ... you know, each of the, each of the, uh... Yeah, I would go, and, "Well, let's, let's go bounce on Ron's bed." You know, I, I resisted that. But, uh, uh, you know, it's, it, it, it's beautiful.
And, and, and, uh, you know, it's, uh, uh, w- we were mostly in the, the, obviously the, the entertainment, uh, quarters, the living room, if you will, and the dining room. Mm-hmm. I, I remember, I will tell you one story. When the first time I was invited to, uh, the, the residence, it was Christmas dinner. And, uh, um- No
big deal
so, uh, the, the president's, uh, needless to say, at the head of the table. And, um, I remember George Will was there, and the, the Wicks were there, and, and, uh, and, uh, well, I, I was there, and, uh- Yeah, you didn't have
anywhere to go,
I guess ... I'm about 32 years old, right? Right. And I sit down, and needless to say, I'm thinking, "This is..."
I mean, I was on the White House staff, but that's a little different than being in the residence- Yeah ... having Christmas dinner with, dinner with the president. And, uh, uh, so we sit down, uh, for dinner, and the president tur- This is, you know, well, p- p- it was mildly horrific, actually. The president turns to me and says, "Well, Dennis, would you, would you ask the blessing?"
You're kidding. Yeah. You're kidding. They didn't know. And I thought- You're
kidding ...
I thought, "Oh my golly, w- how, what exactly, uh, does one say or ask for when, you know, the leader of the free world..." Yeah. And r- remember, this is the early '80s. Well, you're talking to the- So we're still in the thick of it- Yes
with, uh, with the then Soviet Union.
You're sitting with number two talking to number one.
Yeah, it's, yeah. It is, uh, yeah, exactly. Uh, uh, so that was, that was a little bit of pressure. I'm, I'm sure it was, uh... Well, he didn't throw me out, so it must've been adequate.
Well, good job. So from your time there, tell us about your progression.
I mean, I mentioned that you were president of the FCC. Uh, tell us the next steps.
I, uh, worked in, on the White House staff for about two years. I, I sh- I should say, since we made reference to it, uh, that what I was doing, I was, uh, associate director of presidential personnel. So our-- the job of the personnel, uh, shop in the White House is to interview candidates for presidential appointments.
So- Really? Okay ... if someone is going, if someone is going to be appointed, um, you know, assistant secretary of defense, uh, or assistant secretary of state, or secretary of state for that matter- Really ... anything that required a Senate confirmation and a direct nomination by the president obviously is, uh, a person that's going to be vetted and, uh, uh, FBI background check and, and then one has to vet the, the, the politics of getting this, this person confirmed.
So all of that is brokered by, uh, the personnel shop. So I was associate director of president per-personnel when-- had a number of agencies, including the Department of Justice, uh, within my, my purview. So our job was to interview people and make recommendations, uh, to the president. So I did that for a couple of years
I
had- What a, what a trusted position.
It was a, it was a significant position. I mean, clearly the president is, is not necessarily going to have candidates for all of the... I mean, there are hundreds of positions. Yeah. That even at the, even at the top level, these, these positions that require Senate confirmation, there's still many, many, many of those positions.
So the president obviously doesn't have the time to- Sure ... to vet five candidates for that position, and then, and then make a judgment. So that was really our... It was our job to make those recommendations. Obviously, at the end of the day, it was the president's, the president's call. Uh, but so that's what we did, and it was, uh, it was an interesting job.
But what I was gonna say is, in getting back to answer your question, I had all the independent regulatory... I had the Department of Justice. I also had all the independent regulatory agencies in my jurisdiction, so that's the SEC, the ICC, the Federal Communications Commission, all the independent agencies, uh, as well as, as DOJ.
And at that time there was... This is, uh, the early '80s. Uh, there was a lot of change, uh, on the cusp in the telecommunications and broadcasting, uh, industry. Mm-hmm. So I followed with some interest one of my agencies, which was the FCC, uh, with
this- At that time, there was probably what, three, four channels maybe.
Yeah.
You know, not very much. Yeah, yeah. There's no cable television. There's no satellite television. Yeah. There's no podcasting. There was TV.
And it was analog.
And analog, yes.
And, and, and therein lies really the, uh, the key to, uh, the revolution that, that, that we've enjoyed in, in communications. The, the, the transition from, uh, analog to digital is what made streaming possible- Yeah
uh, made the proliferation of channel, uh, capacity possible, uh, uh, created the possibility of the integration of voice, video, and data- Yeah ... which is another revolution. None of that existed. This is in the early '80s when I was at the White House, and then when I went to- Yeah ... the commission, which was at the very end of 19, uh, 83, uh, and, uh, assumed my position really the beginning of '84.
Stayed on for a couple years, and then the president, uh, uh, apparently he remembered my, my, uh, my, my blessing from Christmas, because he ended up appointing me chairman of the FCC. So, uh, uh, I'm kidding. It probably wasn't my, uh, my prayer at Christmas. But I served as commissioner for, uh, a few years and then was appointed, uh, chairman in, in 1987.
But getting back to the more important story- Yeah ... uh, uh, the, the, the, the changes in telecom that were going on were phenomenal. So you had the transition from analog to digital. Uh, you had the optimization of satellite capacity and the use, uh, of satellite capacity for the distribution of, of broadcast signals, which hadn't been done.
Yeah. Uh, HBO, I think, was the, the, the first to do that. Um, cable at the time was, uh, uh, a- an antenna service. I mean, cable, as you, you probably know, uh, was, uh, a technology that was intended to ex- effectively extend the antenna of a broadcast television community where they couldn't get over-the-air, uh- Run pipe
right to the
house
yeah, run pipe to the house as a way of taking the three networks that we had at the time- Mm-hmm ... uh, uh, uh, a- and, and, and getting those signals into homes where there was, uh, uh, interference that, that, that would preclude that. But then someone had the bright idea, "Well, wait a second. Why do we just have to retransmit the three over-the-air broadcast networks that we have?
Why can't we create new, new, uh, channel capa- or new channels, new programming?" And that, that was a bit of a revolution. But-
I think you're underselling how big of a revolution that is, because one of the aspects that I was just thinking about as you were saying that, um, like, currently, we could talk about it later, I always think, like, SpaceX is very im- important.
I see those rockets go off, and I watch them all the time. And one of the things that I have seen from just that, uh- transfer or the, that transformative system is, uh, there were so many people that were still on AOL dial-up up until just a few years ago that are living in rural, uh, places in this country where their only way to get the internet was either a very, very slow satellite system or, uh, AOL dial-up.
And now y- anybody in the continental United States can go buy a Starlink and put it on top of their house- Yep ... and they have high-speed internet access, and they're up to speed with every single person that lives in a city.
Right. Right. And, and-
I didn't mean to derail you, but as you were- No ... saying that, one of the things that it was just popping into my mind is when you, when you entered that, uh, it, that working at the White House, if no one had an email address.
No.
Right? No, no. And by the time you're leaving, uh, that's definitely transforming.
Right. It's transforming towards ... Cer- certainly by the time I was leaving the commission in, in 1989 at the end of, uh, the Reagan administration. But no, you make a really good point. I was lucky enough to be there, and lucky enough to be, uh, in particular on the FCC at a time of just seismic change.
And as you, as your example points out, there are changes that take place that are incremental- Sure ... and then there are other changes that profoundly change everything.
There are years nothing happens, and then there are days that decades happen.
Yeah, that decades happen. And, and I was, uh, uh, witness and arguably party to a couple of those, those changes, uh, that, that occurred,
uh, in, in- And trying to figure out how to navigate it, in all honesty
uh, trying to figure out, because th- those were uncharted, uh, territories. Wild West. So, so just as, uh, as one example When I was, uh, when I transitioned from the White House to the FCC as a commissioner, before I became chairman of the FCC, I was a commissioner for, uh, for some period of time before the, before I became chairman.
But in any case, uh, you go back to January of 1984. January of 1984 was when the divestiture of AT&T became effective. Hmm. Now, for our listeners out there that have no recollection of this, we used to have ... Just like we had three broadcast networks for television, and all of your programming decisions were made by three individuals in New York- Mm-hmm
that decided what you were gonna watch, which is, by the way, no longer the case. More on that later. Yes. In telephony, there was one company, and it was called AT&T, and it provided both long distance, and it owned all of the local, uh, uh, uh, telephone, uh, operators as well. It was Ma Bell. Uh, a judge named Judge Green, a federal, uh, district court judge, uh, who heard an antitrust case against AT&T, found that that was anti-competitive, uh, and violated the antitrust, or AT&T had violated the antitrust laws, and so, uh, decided that AT&T had to be broken up.
He did not decide what was to follow the breakup of AT&T. Hmm. And so that fell to the FCC to figure out. Um, that was a huge sort of systemic change in the provision of telecommunications. So we had a decision to make. Um, one, one footnote When I was appointed, uh, as I say, at the end of '83, I assumed my position at the commission in ear- early 1984.
It was literally, uh, a- at the, uh, at the, at the, the, the very start of... It was almost literally the day that AT&T was broken up and we had a, a new world order. And I remember someone, uh, saying, uh, or d- me saying. I said, "Well, you know, I was a, um, a business litigation lawyer. I mean, I'm really not all that well-versed, certainly in telephony- Yeah
uh, you know, in telecommunications." And the guy I was talking to, who was already at the commission, he says, "Well, it really doesn't matter because no one knows anything now because all of the rules just changed." Mm-hmm. And that was very much, very much the case. The reason I raise this is it kind of ties together a couple of points that we've already been, been talking about.
One huge change, seismic change, uh, in, in regulation that, that, uh, that ends up affecting real people. It ends up affecting all of us. But secondly, policy and politics and Ronald Reagan. When AT&T was broken up, the presumption was, and it certainly was the position of, of the telephone industry, the incumbent existing telephone industry, that AT&T would, uh, uh, continue to own and control long distance, and there would be separate companies that would control, as monopolies- Mm-hmm
as regulated monopolies, uh, uh, telephone service, telephony, in the various areas. And those-
Similar to airline industries kind of back, back in the day.
Yeah, exactly. And, and, uh, so the assumption was that there would be... That AT&T would be broken up, but the provision of telephone service would still be essentially a monopoly service.
They would just be smaller monopolies that covered less geog- uh, uh, geography, if you will. Mm-hmm. The reason for that, I don't wanna get too far into the weeds here, but, but a little- It is fascinating ... a little bit into the weeds. Th- th- the argument in favor of having telephone service be provided by a monop- uh, monopoly service provider, um, was the assumption th- uh, was that, uh, the provision of telephone service was a natural monopoly.
And a natural monopoly is, it's an economic notion, but it's basically the argument that the, uh, the provision of that service, the cost of providing that service will always fall over the demand curve. So the more demand you have, which is to say the more service you're providing- Mm-hmm ... which is to say if you're a monopoly, you're always going to be able to provide the service cheaper than if you break it up and there's two companies doing it.
Yes. That's, that would be a na- Two
wires versus one wire.
Yeah, yeah. So the, the- Is
that kinda similar to, say, PG&E in, uh, California? It's
the same ass- it's the, it's the same assumption. Okay. And, and by the way, it's bogus. It's complete... And that's where I'm going with this story. Ooh, let's
go, baby. I love
this.
Yeah. No, it's a completely bogus a- assumption. The assumption of a natural monopoly, again, is it's always gonna be cheaper, and therefore better for the people if there's only one provider 'cause it's always going to be cheaper. But no one ever tests that. No one, no... And, and in the case of telephony, no one had ever tested that.
So I'm at the FCC and I say to one of my guys who's on my staff who's an economist, I say, "Well, what about this?" Hey,
do some math here.
Yeah. Uh, what, what do you think? Uh, uh, to which he said, "Well, first of all, it's never been tested, and I doubt it's true. I don't think it is a natural monopoly." Well, how do we find out?
We open it up for competition. Hmm. And this gets back to Reagan. So Reagan had a couple of, uh, rules and principles he lived by, and, um, one was that free markets are good- Mm-hmm ... and that competition is good- Yeah ... and that regulation is generally bad. Mm-hmm. Um, so we went into... Once I was at the commission, I was at an independent agency, so it's not like the president was calling us telling us what to do.
He n- he never had, he didn't really have any input after I left. But philosophically, we were very much in tune. So we basically said to the telephone industry after divestiture- Hey, you know what? You're, you're telling it's a n- it's a, it's a natural monopoly. If it is a natural monopoly, because you have all of the market now, no one will be able to compete with you.
If you're right that costs are always cheaper when you're providing more and more service to more and more customers, then no one's gonna be able to compete with you anyway, so what are you worried about? So we opened up the industry to competition. First thing we did is we said, "Sprint, you wanna compete with AT&T?
You know, be our guest."
And the C- Southern Pacific Railroad. Uh, that's what Sprint stands for, right? Yeah, that's how they- Southern Pacific Railroad, uh, International Telephone or something like that. And that,
and, and that had to do with how they achieved rights of way. Uh-
Yeah, they got the right of ways by running them down the railways.
They got the right of way, which were
very important. Amazing. But basically, uh, again, f- forgive me, Keith, 'cause I am getting kind of into the weeds here, but it's important and it's, it's a philosophical point as well. It's like, well, let's open it up and see. And so the FCC made a ruling that from now on anybody that wants to compete, assuming you meet certain criteria, can compete.
And what happened? Prices came down. It was not a natural monopoly.
Well, number one, I wanna say thank you for coming on. Uh, this is gonna be a couple part episode, everybody, just so you guys know. So you've been listening to Chopping It Up with 105.9 on Crazy Country. Come with us next week, Saturday. Uh, we'll be talking with Dennis Patrick about his h- history with the Reagan White House, breakup of AT&T, uh, telecommunications, and we're gonna get into the weeds a little bit more.
See you next week, ladies and gentlemen.
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opics Covered in Episode 52
Ronald Reagan and the Reagan Administration
Inside the Reagan White House
Former FCC Chairman Dennis Patrick
Federal Communications Commission (FCC)
The Breakup of AT&T
The Ma Bell Monopoly
American Telecommunications History
Communications Policy
Public Service and Government Leadership
White House Staff and Presidential Appointments
The West Wing
Christmas at the White House
Free Market Economics
Competition vs. Government Regulation
American Innovation
The History of Cable Television
The Origins of the Digital Revolution
Telecommunications Deregulation
Broadband and Internet Infrastructure
Mobile Phones and Wireless Communications
Streaming Technology
Podcasts and Digital Media
Leadership Lessons
Constitutional Government
Entrepreneurship
Technology History
Media History
Public Policy
American History
Santa Ynez Valley
California Ranching
Dennis Patrick Biography
Chopping It Up with Keith Saarloos
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Frequently Asked Questions About Dennis Patrick, the FCC, Ronald Reagan, and the Breakup of AT&T
Who is Dennis Patrick?
Dennis Patrick is an American attorney, communications policy leader, former Chairman of the Federal Communications Commission (FCC), former member of President Ronald Reagan's White House staff, media executive, rancher, author, and Santa Ynez Valley resident. During the Reagan Administration, Patrick helped oversee one of the most significant periods in American communications history, including the breakup of AT&T, increased competition in telecommunications, and policies that helped prepare the United States for the digital age. Following his government service, he held executive leadership positions with Time Warner, AOL, and National Geographic before moving to California's Santa Ynez Valley to operate Zaca Creek Ranch and write the novel Santa Ynez. Episode 52 of Chopping It Up with Keith Saarloos explores Dennis Patrick's remarkable career and his firsthand perspective on the people and decisions that reshaped American communications.
What did Dennis Patrick do as Chairman of the FCC?
As Chairman of the Federal Communications Commission during the Reagan Administration, Dennis Patrick helped guide the FCC through one of the most transformative periods in communications history. His work included implementing policies following the breakup of AT&T, encouraging competition within the telecommunications industry, modernizing broadcast regulations, expanding opportunities for cable television, and helping create the regulatory environment that allowed the digital communications revolution to flourish. Decisions made during Patrick's tenure continue to influence broadband internet, wireless communications, streaming platforms, mobile technology, podcasts, digital media, and the internet infrastructure used throughout the United States today.
Why was the breakup of AT&T so important?
The breakup of AT&T in 1984 marked one of the most significant antitrust actions in American history. Before the breakup, AT&T—commonly known as Ma Bell—operated as a government-regulated monopoly controlling most local and long-distance telephone service throughout the United States. Introducing competition encouraged innovation, reduced costs, increased consumer choice, and accelerated investment in telecommunications infrastructure. Many historians consider the breakup of AT&T to be one of the foundational events that eventually made broadband internet, smartphones, fiber-optic communications, streaming services, cloud computing, video conferencing, and today's digital economy possible. Dennis Patrick explains this historic transformation in Episode 52 of Chopping It Up with Keith Saarloos from the perspective of someone directly involved in implementing these changes.
What was Ronald Reagan like behind the scenes?
One of the most unique aspects of Episode 52 is Dennis Patrick's personal perspective on President Ronald Reagan. Having served on Reagan's White House staff, Dennis shares stories about working inside the West Wing, attending Christmas dinners at the White House, and observing the President away from cameras and public appearances. According to Patrick, Reagan's public personality closely reflected who he was in private—optimistic, approachable, humorous, deeply prepared, and focused on his long-term vision for the country. The episode provides listeners with a rare firsthand account of one of America's most influential presidents from someone who worked alongside him during his administration.
Episode 51: Charlotte Becerra — The Story Behind Old Santa Ynez Days
In Episode 51 of Choppin' It Up with Keith Saarloos, Keith sits down with Charlotte Becerra, Executive Director of the Santa Ynez Chamber of Commerce and the driving force behind Old Santa Ynez Days, one of the Santa Ynez Valley's most beloved annual traditions.
For generations, Old Santa Ynez Days has celebrated the history, culture, and western heritage of Santa Ynez. What began as a small community celebration has grown into a multi-day event that brings together residents, families, businesses, volunteers, and visitors from throughout Santa Barbara County and beyond.
Keith and Charlotte discuss the origins of Old Santa Ynez Days, how the event has evolved over the years, and the traditions that continue to make it special. From the famous Tortilla Toss and the Old Santa Ynez Days Jail to the parade, live entertainment, community gatherings, and local fundraising efforts, the conversation explores why the event remains such an important part of life in the Santa Ynez Valley.
The episode also highlights the incredible volunteer effort required to organize and sustain a community celebration of this size. Charlotte shares stories about the people who make Old Santa Ynez Days possible, the importance of preserving local traditions, and how community events help connect generations while keeping the history of the Santa Ynez Valley alive.
Listeners will gain insight into the history of Santa Ynez, the role of community organizations, local volunteerism, small-town traditions, and why events like Old Santa Ynez Days continue to matter in an increasingly connected but often disconnected world.
Whether you're interested in Santa Ynez Valley history, western heritage, community events, local traditions, Santa Barbara County culture, volunteer organizations, parades, family activities, or the people who help keep small-town America thriving, this episode offers a fascinating look behind one of the region's most cherished celebrations.
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Jail Wagons • Tortilla Tosses • Rodeo Weekend • The Most Santa Ynez Thing Ever
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Hey, everybody. It is 10:00 AM on a Saturday morning, and that means you are listening to Chopping It Up with your host, Keith Saarloos of Saarloos and Sons Wine and Cupcakes, located right there on Grand Avenue in Los Olivos. If you're listening to this, come on over, have a great day sitting out front. Eat some cupcakes, drink some wine, have the best day of your life. Today we are talking about Old Santa Ynez Days. Old Santa Ynez Days is coming up fast, and we wanted to invite every single person in the Santa Ynez Valley and beyond to participate. So today we have a very, very special guest who's gonna tell us all about it. Please introduce yourself. Hello. This is Charlotte Becerra from Old Santa Ynez Days and the Chamber of Commerce. Uh, so are you in charge of Old Santa Ynez Days? Who is actually in charge of Old Santa Ynez Days? That would be me. My friends even made a crown- ... for my cowboy hat for me, so it's legit. So how long has Old Santa Ynez been, Days been going on in, uh, the Santa Ynez Valley? It was founded in 1962 by Dutch Wilson and his brother. Um, and we had two years off for COVID. Yeah. So we're still cruising. Dutch Wil- Is that Dutch Cojo Dutch? Yes. Is it really? Yes. That is fantastic. So how, how did it all start way back when? It was originally a fundraiser called Los Amigos de Santa Ynez Old Tortilla Days, and that's- where the tortilla toss comes from. And it was a fundraiser to, uh, do the parks, uh, Segundo Park. Really? Mm-hmm. And so Old Santa Ynez Days kinda built the Santa Ynez Park? Yes. It, it was a fundraiser. That is a beautiful piece of valley lore that I don't think anybody would ever come up with. So where did, where did the tortillas come from? Uh, that I do not know. I have to ask, uh, Dutch's niece. I am friends with her. Is she still involved? No. She does p- she has a fantastic leather badge collection, and she lends it to the museum every year. They do a whole Old Santa Ynez Days exhibit- Yeah ... at the Santa Ynez Historical Museum. Okay. So you being, um, El Jefe, El Presidente of this whole thing, tell us about what happens at Old Santa Ynez Days and, and f- get everybody fired up for it coming up. What... Start to finish, what are we doing? On, on the 18th, the Santa Ynez Museum has the kickoff party. This year they have the Double Wide Kings- Ooh ... which will be pretty fabulous, and the Pork Palace is serving the goods. So it's good food and dancing, and that is Thursday, the 18th. Mm-hmm. Saturday, June 20th is we open the day with the street fair and parade, which is the portion I run- Mm with a fantastic volunteer crew, and it is free to the public. And our goal really is to have a free, fun community event- Awesome ... to celebrate our town. So when it starts basically, where, where, where does it start, where does it end? It starts at 9:00 AM, ends at 2:00 PM, parade's at 10, and most of the activities happen on Segundo Street between Edison and Faraday. So basically you're from Red Barn all the way down to the Maverick. N- just to- Oh ... uh, the museum- To the museum ... or the gas station. Sorry. And then we have added and grown it every single year, a huge free kids area. So you have little kids, we have face painters- I love it ... and pony rides and bounce houses and activities, and it's all free. So Old Santa Ynez Days, when I remember it, well, you know, 25 years ago when we first moved to the valley, was kind of like the party. And, uh, the badges. So if you can bring, bring us into the whole lore of the Santa Ynez Valley Old Santa Ynez Days, because there's a, there's a, uh, jail involved, there's badges involved. Give us the whole rundown. So we do have a jail, um, at the Old Santa Ynez Days Jail, and it is the last entry in our grand old parade. And so we have leather badges that, um, we make. They are $2 a piece, and if you're wearing a badge for that year, you don't get sent to jail. If you are caught by one of our deputies not wearing a badge- Mm-hmm you have to go to jail, and it's 20 bucks. Is it 20 bucks to get out of it again? To get out of jail. Oh, man. We also have, um, all of the badge revenue goes towards our scholarships for the chamber. Mm-hmm So, uh, we do have a $20 scholarship posse badge. Um- I like that ... and a lot of stores in town on the day of Old Santa Ynez Days give discounts to people wearing badges- Yeah to kind of encourage the town camaraderie. Where did the badges whole thing start? Where did the jail thing start? 'Cause it, this is... I wanted to have you on here because I think for me, and hopefully for the rest of the Santa Ynez Valley, if you go to, you know, the 4th of July parade in Solvang, it's, like, pretty straightforward. You know, every- line up on the street, get there early, put your stuff down. The tree burning, same thing. Um, Day in the Country in Los Olivos, right down the middle. Uh, uh, you know, Old Fashioned Christmas, all the, all the great stuff that this valley does individually, but also we all do it together. Mm-hmm. S- Old Santa Ynez Days seems like it has the most amount of really, really cool lore that comes along with it, that quite honestly I don't feel like anybody knows about, right? The fact that Dutch started this, I mean, Dutch and who else? His brother. Really? Mm-hmm. So were they living in the Santa Ynez Valley at the time, or were they out at Cojo when they started this thing? I believe they were on Refugio. They're on Refugio. Mm-hmm. So I, from, you know, I don't know Dutch, right? But it just seems like a very weird group to have started this event. Was he g- was he... Uh, like, you sitting across from me, I could totally see you, like, grabbing this thing by the reins and going, "Okay, we're gonna raise some money for these kids. We're gonna do this." But the fact that, like, a cattle hand, um, started this, which benefited and built a park, seems not out of character, but it really blows me away thinking like, wow, these people were really planting trees that they were never going to sit under the shade of. I think that speaks to the valley culture in general. Um, we always help each other, and that's something, that's why we do what we do- Yeah ... because keeping that culture alive, and it doesn't matter who you are in our community, if the community needs help, we're there. And so when you g- so now the jail, do you know when that started? I have no idea when the jail started. We, we should just start m- let's just start making stuff up. I know. I like it. It's, it was recently refurbished by the- Is- ... Pirate Garage- Is it really? ... at the high school. Yes. Wait, the high school refurbished the jail? Yes. Okay. Is it still in the back of a truck? Yes, or a tractor. Or a tractor. Yes. Got it, and then they just go up and down throwing people in j- I've been in the jail. So y- they just drive up and down the street. If you're not wearing a badge, a deputy will come and find you- Uh, grab you and say, "Off to jail." Yes. And then you get thrown into... We- let's paint the picture here for everyone, because I think this is so fun, right? They paint the picture is, if you're walking down the street and you're from out of town, you don't know the game. You're looking around, everybody's got this badge on. You're like, "What? I don't know. What, you know, what is this?" And, and by the way, if you live in the Santa Ynez Valley, invite people from out of town to this. Oh, it's a great weekend. The rodeo, it's all things Santa Ynez. All things Santa Ynez. And don't tell them about the badges. I mean, the whole point is- ... and I'm just saying this right now. If, if you don't know about the badges, and I'm, I'm sorry to anybody I'm, I'm, you know, talking about Santa here with, um, don't tell anybody. Don't tell anybody about the badge. Because when the deputy walks up and grabs, you know, the tourist who just bought their brand new cowboy hat and is rolling around town, um, and they get drug off and thrown straight into a j- a literal jail cell, uh, that is being pulled around by a tractor or a truck or whatever this year, um, and then they get paraded up and down the street Because they weren't wearing a badge. So everybody in the valley, don't tell anyone to buy a badge. We- I think that the 20 bucks to get out of jail is, is ... That seems about a good bail money. Yeah. And it's a good cause. It's a good cause. And has anybody ever gotten upset about them being thrown in jail? No. No. They, uh, they find humor in it. And actually, we leave the jail, um, after the parade- usually by my shop. Yeah. Um, and tons of people take pictures in the jail. Oh. That's a thing. I love it. Oh, it's so fantastic. So okay. The jail, lo- absolutely love it. Um, the badges, 20 bucks to get out. Um, what, what are some of the other ... The, you described the, the stuff for the kids this year, which I think is always the, the great Are you doing, are you doing anything with tortillas this year? I hope to find a tortilla toss chair. If- Okay ... shout out to anyone out there that really wants to chair the tortilla toss, you just contact me. So to bring up what the tortilla toss is or was, and we need it, we're actively ... So if you're listening to this right now y- and you feel it on your heart, how do they get ahold of you to be the chair of the tortilla toss? They can contact me. Uh, my information is on oldsanYnezdays.com. Perfect. Uh, and there's information there. And should we explain what a tortilla- Yes ... toss is? Please do this. 'Cause it's very random. I love it. So- That's why I had you in here today. I mean, in all honesty, I love Old San Ynez Days. I love the jail. I love the tortilla toss. I think it's one of the most exci- I think it's the funnest event to go to in the San Ynez Valley because, and I'm sorry if I'm saying, but it's almost completely unhinged, and that's the part that I like. Oh, it's kooky and unusual, but it's ours and we love it. Okay. We're gonna get into parade after this, but w- tell us about the tortilla toss. So I assume this was started, um, probably to raise money. You paid, I would imagine, to, uh, toss a tortilla. Yes. You take a fake cast iron skillet- Mm-hmm ... uh, 'cause real ones are very heavy. Yes. And you put the tortilla in there, and you fling it into a kiddie pool. And if you make it into the kiddie pool, you are a tortilla toss champ. Fantastic. Do you win anything for the tortilla toss championships? We usually have, uh, candy or little toys- Fantastic ... 'cause they're usually kids. Yes. Fantastic. So again- We've gone from jail to the tortilla toss, and we're, we're really building on the unhinged aspect of, of Old Santa Ynez Days, which I absolutely love. Um, tell us about the parade. Are you still ex- are you still looking for people to join the Old Santa Ynez Days Parade? Absolutely. We have a ton of horse entries, which we are, I think, the Central Coast cowboy capital- Yeah ... so it's appropriate for us, and it's- Well, now that Fiesta doesn't do the world's biggest equine parade, I think Santa Ynez is probably going, vying for the title. Right. Our, our whole two blocks- ... you know, from the Maverick to Red Barn. Per capita. Right. Per capita, right. The most horses in a parade per capita. There you go. Um, we would love floats. We have some dancers. We always love little kids, of course. We've had kids on trikes and ponies and- Love it ... all cool old cars. You name it. Has there ... And, and they can find that at OldSantaYnezDays.com? Yes. Perfect. So we're gonna keep plugging the plu- keep plugging the website. Absolutely. So a question I may have for you is have you ever said no to anybody who wants to be in the parade? Um, we try to stay away from political entries. Fair enough. We just are- But if it's- ... happy and, you know, we hand out American flags for everyone to wave. Oh. So. But if you're, if you've got an old car and you just wanna be in a parade. Absolutely. If you're a couple of kids and you wanna ride your bike in a parade. Oh, yes. We've had those. Perfect. We have a fantastic dog entry. Ooh, fantastic. Some of them do little tricks. And they all wear little red, white, and blue bandanas, so. So other ... Let's just say this. No political stuff. Anything other than that, and is kid-friendly and family-friendly and every- and a good time, uh, go to oldsantaynezdays.com and enter. Absolutely. If you have a tractor, how many tractors? Oh, well, Tractor Joe. Yes. We all know Tractor Joe. We'll see how many tractors he brings this year. Perfect. Last year he brought three. Oh, so, uh, if I was, if I have a riding lawnmower and I would like to be in the parade, would you allow me to be in the parade? We, last year we actually had a golf cart- ... that was decorated with pool stuff- Yeah from a pool sweep company. Fantastic. It was fabulous. Yeah, so if you're in this and you're listening in the Santa Ynez Valley and you have a business, uh, throw a sticker on the side of your truck, uh, the side of your, anywhere, and enter into the parade and get free advertising. Absolutely. I love it. Okay. So tell us about the, uh, kickoff party, because you said it was at the Carriage Museum. Correct. Okay. And it is, uh, the Doublewide Kings- Mm-hmm ... which is a great, um, Santa Barbara County- Yep ... band. And Pork Palace is doing the food. And we honor our grand marshal there, which is Nicole Pena this year. So how did Nicole become the grand marshal? Uh, the committee voted on it, and the chamber board, of course, approved it. She has dedicated decades to that town. That is very true. How would we know, how would you know Nicole if you've never met her? What does she do in the valley? Who is she, what is she a part of? Um, she is an instrum- instrumental part of the Chamber of Commerce, of course. Mm-hmm. She currently serves as secretary. And she's also on the We Watch board. Oh, really? Mm-hmm. And she's always, I don't know if you've seen our painted horses around Santa Ynez. Um- Yeah ... she's always restoring those. I've gotten a few phone calls, "Somebody stole the horse." And no, it's being restored. It's in Nicole's garage, so. Can I ask a question about the horses, by the way? Mm-hmm. Where do the horses come from? That actually, it started with the chamber, and it is now with our 501[c][3] which is called Santa Ynez Beautiful. Okay. And we, local artists have painted them. We provide the horse blank. Ooh. And, uh, they're really cool. And they're just scattered around town. There is a map- Mm-hmm ... I believe, on our website, santaynezca.com Uh, if you wanna check out all the horses Is that Santa Ynez specific? 'Cause I live in Los Olivos, and I've always been envious of the horses. Is there a way that I can buy one of those horses and have somebody paint it and have it be in Los Olivos, or, I'm just saying, I, I don't wanna cross a horse boundary here, or is it Santa Ynez specific? It's only been Santa Ynez, uh, so far. Yeah But it's just kind of our little, tiny- C- ... project. And like Los Olivos, we are not incorporated- Yeah ... so we don't have tax revenue. So it's kinda scrappy and creative and- Well, if you're ever looking to expand, I am interested, and I'm sure there's a lotta people that are listening to here that would love to have one of these horses. They're so cool and creative. I remember years and years ago, we were in, um, Zurich actually for the thousandth anniversary of the town. And they had all these painted lions. And it reminds me of that. I'm like, "Santa Ynez and Zurich," you know? I love it when you go to a town and then all of a sudden you're seeing, like... You know, I've seen dogs, I've seen ... The horses are fantastic. I think it's perfect for Santa Ynez. Um, there's cows. You know, when a group of people get together and then all of a sudden you're just driving around and you're like, "Oh, another one, and another one, and another one," and then you see them in people's front yards and things like that. It, it is such a warm hug for a community because it looks ... You're also, you're not taking yourself too seriously, but you're also adding to the landscape, and you're seeing something beautiful and making people smile. And I absolutely love them. How many are there around town? Um, I wanna say we have about a dozen. Okay. Well, when you want the 13th, I, give me a call. Right on. I love it. So can we talk about the Santa Ynez Carriage Museum a little bit? Absolutely. Perfect. Um, I think, I always find the Santa Ynez Valley Carriage Museum as one of, like, the most It's a hidden gem, and it's, it is truly a world-class, uh, museum. And I think it gets, I won't say slept on a little bit, but it is a beautiful facility. It's right there in Santa Ynez. Um, you know, Solvang has a few museums here. Um, but that, that building and the truly treasures that are inside of it is world-class, like over the top world-class. I was just there yesterday. Um, it is amazing, and if you haven't been into the carriage house, which is the best collection of carriages west of the Mississippi, if you- It's unreal ... and, uh, John Copeland of, uh, Rancho Olivos- Mm-hmm ... has really, uh, taken his skills from TV production to creating, uh, exhibit installations that are what he calls edutainment. Yes. Yeah. So, uh, the Mattie's exhibit, for example, has Felix Mattie- Mm-hmm ... um, with, um, the longest monologue that actor has ever had to say. Really? Uh, but it's pretty amazing. Okay. Uh, and then we of course have the Yosemite stage. We have one on dogs, and they're currently working on a Rancheros exhibit. Oh, that'll be awesome. Yeah. So when they, when you guys, you guys do a few events over there a year and, uh, and every single time I'm like, "Oh, it's o- We- Let's go over there," right? It also has, d- does it still have the world's smallest, uh, library inside of it? That is on the same property. Okay. I think that museum is 16 feet by 10 or something m- But it's an actual library. It is. It's open on Saturdays. That's fantastic. So if you, if you need a book right after you're listening to this, head over to the world's smallest library- Right ... in Santa Ynez. It's actually been moved around town a full, a few times, and they literally just threw it on a flatbed trailer on the back of a pickup truck and moved it. Isn't it... It's, but it's, but that's the, the one thing we need to say, it is an actual library. It is a working Santa Barbara County Library. It's fantastic. 16 by 16? It's something tiny- Yeah ... like that. Yeah. So there's, there are books in it. Yes. That's the other thing we gotta let people know. Yes. Um, c- let's talk about carriages and horses- Yeah 'cause I know that's near and dear to your heart. Absolutely. Some of the, if you, you know, a lot of places you go to and, and you'll walk in and, you know, you, uh, if you grew up in Southern California, you went to Knott's Berry Farm, or you've seen a stagecoach on a movie. Everybody's seen one, right? The fact of the matter is, for the Santa Ynez Valley, um, the stagecoach system was actually n- one of the most important aspects of the fact that Santa Ynez as a whole and the Santa Ynez Valley is here. And the r- railway. I w- I would put those two together. Absolutely. Because one of the things that a, not a lot of people know about was that the train line went to Santa Barbara and stopped. That was kind of it. And there wasn't the Gaviota Pass, there wasn't this, and the only way that you could get from Santa Barbara to up and over the hill was on a stagecoach. And the fact that when it co- came up and over, it kind of be, it ... The reason Cold Spring Tavern is still there today is because that's where they would trade horses. And if I'm saying anything wrong, because you're the authority here- You, I'm shaking my head yes. You are. Okay. You are correct. I'm, 'cause this is, like, all cobbled together. But if you go to up to s- like, Cold Spring Tavern, that's where they would go, you know, over the Lizard's Mouth and everything else, and they would get there to switch horses. They would get, the, that's a working bunkhouse and a working stagecoach stop literally to this day. Correct. Then they would switch horses there and make their way back down the hill, all the way over, and I've heard tons of different circuitous routes where they would hug kind of where water was. Like, up Ballard Canyon, up and over the hill, um, basically over into Los Olivos, uh, where the end, endpoint was right there at Mattie's Tavern. Correct. And there are, um, if you peek around the valley, there are some historical- Yeah ... signs, um, on Baseline, over, um, on Segundo as well. Um, but the, the railway and the stagecoach were incredible. And, um, as you know, my husband, Ramon Becerra- There we go ... horse trainer, uh, but he loves his carriage horses and, uh- Loves it ... his Visa V and his chariot. Uh- I've seen the chariot Everyone needs a chariot. I actually gave that to him for Valentine's Day one year. Um, I found it on the side of the road in Pearblossom. Okay, I have a request. Yes. Can he- ride the chariot for Old Santianez Days? He cannot. Aw. Uh, 'cause the, the wheels are actually being repaired right now. Okay. Okay. Now, uh, the year after this? Uh, yes. Perfect. I- Can I nominate him for grand marshal and make him wear the whole Roman suit to go down? It, he, as long as you are in a toga. I'll ride with him. Okay. I, I'm saying yes to this now. It's a date. This is fantastic. So tell me some of the, the other things that are in the, uh, the museum, 'cause one of the things you were saying, uh, west of the Mississippi. The w- the carriages that are in that museum are original. Is that correct? There are a few, um, re-pops, as we call them- Sure reproductions. Uh, the Carroll Stage Line- Yep ... is an absolutely stunning, uh, reproduction of a mud wagon, uh, which is, most people know as a stagecoach. Yep. Uh, but most of them are original. There's some- there's a Sicilian donkey cart that's just the cutest darn thing you've ever seen. The paint on it is beautiful. Awesome. I mean, just fun stuff. One of my favorite, I have two little pieces of, like, fun facts, right? So this is the fun facts with Keith, uh, for the Santianez edition. Um, the term riding shotgun- Comes from what? Uh, from being the guy up i- on the front, uh, holding the shotgun so they didn't get robbed. And, uh, same with a buckboard or a trunk. Okay. A trunk was a trunk- Ooh ... on the back of the stagecoach or carriage. I love it. Yeah. My other little fun fact about Santa Ynez is when you go to the crosswalks that are right by the red barn, um, and, uh, both all the, the directions. If you look down, one of the things you'll notice is there's a lot of horseshoes that are laid into the concrete, which looks very, very weird. But the one thing that everybody should know, and it took me so long to figure this out, and I was so delighted once I saw it, is it actually spells out whoa. Correct. How many people actually know that? I, it's ... Well, my shop's right on the corner- Yes ... so I hear them. And visitors are like, "Oh my God, look. This says-" Do people actually see it? They see it. Oh, that's so cool. The other random fun fact is, um, over near, um, Dos Carlitos, there's a key- Yes ... of all the shoes and the horses that those shoes came from. Really? And there are some- Oh, in that little kinda kiosk on the corner. Yes. Yes. And there are some very famous horses- Okay that wore those shoes. Sh- let's hear. Do you know any off the top of your head? Oh, I believe Wayne Lukas was here at the time. Mm. So there's some famous racehorses. Uh, Windfall, Charlotte Bredahl's horse might have a shoe in there. Awesome. Um, we've had some ... I mean, in the '80s and '90s, there were over 30,000 horses in this valley, so. That's another amazing fact. Yeah. I mean, '80s and '90s, the Santa Ynez Valley was not really known for, let's say, wine like it is today. It was truly from ... Oh, well I can go back. In Los Olivos, like our building, like Charlson's Sons is, was built in 1886, and that was when the train line was there. And we, we've got the door knocker from the front of it, and it was all kinds of different stuff. Uh, we actually had somebody walk in and says, "I was, I was delivered in this building." Oh my gosh. Which is really, really cool. Wow. Um, and E.E. Cummings lived in it for a little while, so there's a lot of weird lore. I would, you know, 90% is probably inaccurate, but I love hearing it anyway. Um, but when you go back to Santa Ynez Valley and the history of it, from 18 roughly Uh, Santa Ynez, when was Santa Ynez a, a township? 1882. I believe- Got it ... Los Alamos or Ballard were our first two towns. I think it was Ballard. I- 'Cause Ballard had the Ballard store- Yes ... f- first. And I think that was actually a stagecoach stop. Probably. Because- And a, a saloon. It- And a saloon, right ... it had, like, two saloons at one time in- Yes Ballard. W- what a party. Right. Right? And that's because the stagecoach line would come up Ballard Canyon and would go over, I'm dating myself here, where Anchor Johnson's property was, and it would cut from Ballard Canyon up and over the hill over into where Ballard is today. And then make a left and go down the creek, basically. And one of the things that I've always thought is fascinating is if you look at creeks and things like that, that's usually where the main thoroughfare was because most people were riding a horse, and if you would be on a horse next to a creek, you always had a water source. Correct. Thank you. And make it all the way down to Matty's. So w- another question, you be the person. Are there any palm trees in Santa Ynez? Hmm. Not in downtown Not downtown No ' Cause I was- the one thing we were thinking about, 'cause they used to plant palm trees because they're not indigenous, and if you were looking a far distance, you could see a palm tree coming out of the ground, and you knew that was somewhere that you need to make your way over to and ride. So Mattie's Tavern has a couple palm trees out front. Our, our tasting room has one growing out of a garage. But maybe, I don't know if it's the old, uh, Christmas tree- Oh ... that was planted in the front. Possi- well, the, the redwood tree, um, on Segundo- Yeah ... we use that for our annual- Yeah ... Christmas tree. I think it's about 65 feet tall- Yeah now. And, um, that property is owned by Ray Gonzalez- Yeah ... and he graciously lets us use his redwood tree every year. ' Cause there are some, there are some pretty historic buildings still in Santa Ynez, isn't there? Mm-hmm. Is, like, Joe Olah's building, like, one of the old ones? Yes. And actually, um, the bakery, um- Is it really? San Ysidro Market, I believe that was original. By the way, I love the fact that you went right to San Ysidro Market. That's- That's it. I know. I know ... the sign's still on the side- I know ... of the road. I know. Um, and actually, that was owned by Nicole Pena and her husband- Yeah ... Ben. And, uh, she had the florist and the deli and all the things in there when they had that. But I believe that was built in 1886, and- So it's a new building, got it. Right. Yeah, sure. Really new. Um, yeah, there's some amazing, uh, structures. The, the Johnson building, that was built in 1902. Mm-hmm. I think, uh, where Joe Olah's office is, that was around 1887- Yeah ... maybe. ' Cause if you look at that, he has that little gap, that gap building, that when you kinda look down, you're like, "What is this?" Yes. And you're like, that's because they needed a gap between the buildings way back when. Yes. Amazing. Yeah. The Johnson building actually had a gas station- Yeah ... um, on the corner. I have some photos somewhere. I love it. Yeah. So everybody who's listening to this, you have got to set this aside. Uh, Old Santa Ynez Days. So Old Santa Ynez... Oh, j- let's start over here. Oldsantaynezdays.com, is that where they can find all the information? Correct. Perfect. And one thing we did not talk about was pie contest, which we have on Saturday- Perfect ... in the Santa Ynez Museum. Okay And, uh, forms for the pie contest are also on the website. Vendor forms and parade forms. So what we're talking about is the world's greatest day. We're starting at the Carriage House on what night? Thursday night. And, and people get tickets at oldsantaynezdays.com. Yes, sir. And then that's Thursday night. Friday- We're just prepping- Prepping ... for Saturday. There we go. And then Saturday morning, bright and early, what time? 9:00 to 2:00. And then the afternoon, Saturday and Sunday afternoon, the Old Santa Ynez Days Rodeo just down the street. So and this is what days again? 'Cause we were just saying Thursdays, Fridays, and things like that. Sorry. June 18th- There we go ... is the kickoff party at the Santa Ynez Museum. Yep. June 20th is Old Santa Ynez Days Street Fair and Parade and Pie Contest. And the rodeo is June 20th and 21st, uh, down the hill in the Meadowvale Lot. And that goes all the way into the evening, correct? Oh, yes. Well, it's the longest days of the year- That's right ... so it's perfect. And it's also Father's Day weekend. Dun, dun, dun. I couldn't think of a better way to hang out with your dad. You know what? This is what your dad wants to do on Father's Day. Load him up, bring him down. Uh, you basically Saturday morning from early, early in the day, parades, hang out. Uh, don't tell him about the badge so he gets thrown in jail. He'll get out of jail. He'll have a great story. You spend the whole day, check out the pies, go to the Carriage Museum, and then at the end of the day, wander down, go to the, go to the rodeo. Absolutely. Where ... Can people buy tickets to the rodeo? They're ... The, uh, tickets for both Thursday, the kickoff party- Yep and the rodeo, there are links on oldsantaynezdays.com. So let me get this straight. The only place you have to go to have the world's greatest Father's Day weekend is oldsantaynezdays.com. Correct. Man, it has been so nice having you in here. Thank you so much. Thank you for your time, your effort to continue traditions. Because one of the things that I think this valley is comprised of is amazing people like you that put a very big pr- I won't say a problem, but put a very big event on your back to get a bunch of people to be a part of something, to do something absolutely magnificent for a huge community of people- Um, I can't thank you enough because it, it- without people like you, things like these traditions would go away, and I think the most beautiful part of the Santa Ynez Valley as a whole, and specifically the tity- the city of Santa Ynez, the township, is that this has been going on for years and years and years. And it is one of the most fun events in the Santa Ynez Valley. It's great, and thank you, but it could not be done with the 40-plus volunteers- I know, I know ... that help me. It's an amazing crew. Somebody's gotta run, sit, sit shotgun, though. I, I'm just the bossy one, I guess. I don't know. No. I think it is very well put in your hands. So everybody, go to oldsantaynezdays.com. You don't wanna miss this thing. Um, if you're sitting at home on a Saturday, y- you're missing out on life. You basically get ready for this thing, put it on your calendar, start circling it. Uh, you're not going out of town. You're not gonna go do anything else. Dad just wants to sit at home anyway, 'cause quite honestly, what does Dad wanna do? He wants to have a beer and sit on the couch. So on Saturday, bring him out to Old Santa Ynez Days. Have ... He gets two days for the price of one. Go down to the rodeo, have a blast, go to the party on Thursday night, and then you're having so much fun on Saturday night, you're gonna wanna go to the rodeo again on Sunday, so you might as well buy all your tickets right now. Oldsantaynezdays.com. It's a perfect weekend. It's a blast. So this has been Keith Sarloos and Chopping It Up on 105.9 KZXY Country. See you at Old Santa Ynez Days.
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Item desTopics Covered:
Who is Charlotte Becerra?
The history of Old Santa Ynez Days
Santa Ynez Valley traditions
The famous Tortilla Toss
The Old Santa Ynez Days Jail
The Santa Ynez Parade
Western heritage in Santa Barbara County
Community volunteerism
The Santa Ynez Chamber of Commerce
Family-friendly events in the Santa Ynez Valley
Preserving local history and culture
Small-town community leadership
Annual festivals and celebrations
Why community traditions matter
Frequently Asked Questions:
Who is Charlotte Becerra?
Charlotte Becerra serves as Executive Director of the Santa Ynez Chamber of Commerce and helps organize Old Santa Ynez Days, one of the Santa Ynez Valley's longest-running community celebrations.
What is Old Santa Ynez Days?
Old Santa Ynez Days is an annual community celebration that honors the history, western heritage, traditions, and culture of Santa Ynez through parades, family activities, community events, entertainment, and fundraising.
What is the Tortilla Toss?
The Tortilla Toss is one of the most popular and recognizable traditions associated with Old Santa Ynez Days, drawing participants and spectators from throughout the Santa Ynez Valley and Santa Barbara County.
What is the Old Santa Ynez Days Jail?
The Old Santa Ynez Days Jail is a longtime community tradition and fundraising activity that allows participants to playfully "arrest" friends, family members, and local personalities during the celebration.
Why is Old Santa Ynez Days important?
Old Santa Ynez Days helps preserve the history, culture, western heritage, and community spirit of Santa Ynez while bringing together residents, businesses, volunteers, and visitors for a shared celebration.
What role do volunteers play in Old Santa Ynez Days?
Volunteers are the backbone of the event, helping organize activities, coordinate logistics, support fundraising efforts, and ensure the celebration continues for future generations.
This episode is more than a conversation about an annual event. It's the story of a community, the traditions that connect generations, and the people who work year-round to preserve the character, history, and spirit of the Santa Ynez Valley.cription
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Who is Charlotte Becerra?
Charlotte Becerra serves as Executive Director of the Santa Ynez Chamber of Commerce and helps organize Old Santa Ynez Days, one of the Santa Ynez Valley's longest-running community celebrations.
What is Old Santa Ynez Days?
Old Santa Ynez Days is an annual community celebration that honors the history, western heritage, traditions, and culture of Santa Ynez through parades, family activities, community events, entertainment, and fundraising.
What is the Tortilla Toss?
The Tortilla Toss is one of the most popular and recognizable traditions associated with Old Santa Ynez Days, drawing participants and spectators from throughout the Santa Ynez Valley and Santa Barbara County.
What is the Old Santa Ynez Days Jail?
The Old Santa Ynez Days Jail is a longtime community tradition and fundraising activity that allows participants to playfully "arrest" friends, family members, and local personalities during the celebration.
Why is Old Santa Ynez Days important?
Old Santa Ynez Days helps preserve the history, culture, western heritage, and community spirit of Santa Ynez while bringing together residents, businesses, volunteers, and visitors for a shared celebration.
What role do volunteers play in Old Santa Ynez Days?
Volunteers are the backbone of the event, helping organize activities, coordinate logistics, support fundraising efforts, and ensure the celebration continues for future generations.
This episode is more than a conversation about an annual event. It's the story of a community, the traditions that connect generations, and the people who work year-round to preserve the character, history, and spirit of the Santa Ynez Valley.
Episode 50: Doug Margerum — The Story of Santa Barbara Wine
In Episode 50 of Choppin' It Up with Keith Saarloos, Keith sits down with Doug Margerum, founder of Margerum Wine Company, restaurateur, entrepreneur, and one of the most influential figures in the history of Santa Barbara County wine.
For more than four decades, Doug has helped shape the identity of the Santa Ynez Valley and Santa Barbara wine industry. From building award-winning restaurants and wine programs to producing world-class wines and promoting the region on a global stage, Doug has been at the center of Santa Barbara County's rise as one of the premier wine destinations in the world.
Keith and Doug discuss the early days of the Santa Ynez Valley wine industry, the pioneers who planted the first vineyards, the growth of Los Olivos and Santa Barbara wine tourism, and the people whose vision helped transform a rural agricultural community into an internationally recognized wine region.
The conversation explores entrepreneurship, hospitality, leadership, risk-taking, travel, food, wine, and the importance of creating memorable experiences. Doug shares stories from decades spent building businesses, working with winemakers, chefs, farmers, and hospitality professionals, while reflecting on the lessons learned along the way.
Listeners will gain insight into what makes Santa Barbara County wine unique, why the Santa Ynez Valley continues to attract talented winemakers and entrepreneurs, and how a commitment to quality, authenticity, and community has fueled the region's success.
Whether you're interested in California wine, Santa Barbara County wineries, entrepreneurship, hospitality, restaurants, travel, leadership, or the history of the Santa Ynez Valley, this episode provides a fascinating look at one of the individuals who helped put Santa Barbara wine on the world map.
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In Episode 50 of Choppin' It Up with Keith Saarloos, Keith sits down with Doug Margerum, founder of Margerum Wine Company, longtime Santa Barbara restaurateur, winemaker, entrepreneur, and one of the most important voices in Santa Barbara County wine.
Doug's story begins long before he became a winemaker. As a teenager, a family trip to France introduced him to Châteauneuf-du-Pape, Rhône Valley wine, restaurants, and the idea that wine was more than a beverage. It was a way to remember a place, a meal, a person, and a moment in time.
From there, Doug's path led him to Santa Barbara, where he attended college, worked in restaurants, and eventually opened The Wine Cask in downtown Santa Barbara. The Wine Cask became one of the most important restaurants and wine destinations in California, helping introduce guests to world-class food, wine, hospitality, and the emerging wines of Santa Barbara County.
Keith and Doug discuss the early days of Santa Barbara wine, the influence of legends like Jim Clendenen of Au Bon Climat, Bob Lindquist of Qupé, Richard Sanford, Louis Lucas, and the pioneers who helped build the region from the ground up. The conversation explores how Santa Barbara County grew from a small agricultural region into one of the most respected wine regions in the world.
They also talk about why wine matters beyond the glass. Wine is memory. Wine is community. Wine is the thing that brings people to the table, softens conversations, marks important moments, and connects people to a specific year and place.
Doug shares stories from decades in restaurants, hospitality, wine collecting, winemaking, consulting, and leadership. Keith and Doug also discuss the Santa Barbara Vintners Foundation, the importance of giving back, the economic impact of wine in Santa Barbara County, and why the local wine industry supports far more than vineyards and tasting rooms.
This episode is for anyone interested in Santa Barbara County wine, Santa Ynez Valley wineries, Los Olivos wine tasting, Santa Barbara restaurants, California wine history, Rhône wines, hospitality, entrepreneurship, wine tourism, farming, food, and the people who helped shape one of America's great wine regions.
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Topics Covered
Who is Doug Margerum?
The history of Santa Barbara County wine
Santa Ynez Valley wine pioneers
Los Olivos wine country
Margerum Wine Company
Hospitality and restaurant management
Entrepreneurship and business leadership
Santa Barbara wine tourism
Building successful wine brands
The future of California wine
Travel, food, and wine culture
Leadership and community building
Lessons from decades in business
Why Santa Barbara County became a world-class wine region
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Everybody, it's 10 AM on a Saturday morning and you were listening to Chopping it Up with Keith Sarlos of Sarlos and Sons Little Wine Company right there in Los Olivos, CA today.
We have a very special guest with us today, a luminary in Santa Barbara County wine.
0:16
Someone with a really, really great story that I wanted to hear personally.
Welcome to the show, Doug Marjoram.
Well, thank you.
Please go on, tell me more.
How long have you been in?
I know wine isn't only is only a small part of your story.
0:32
How did how did your story in Santa Barbara County really begin?
Well, it my story of wine began before I even moved to Santa Barbara to go to college here.
Where'd you grow up?
I grew up in Los Angeles.
We kind of the weird thing was my parents took the kids on a on a European vacation when I was 14 years old and I was a mistake child.
0:57
So my brother and sister, as soon as we hit France, split.
And so I'm stuck with my parents, who I was not that fond of, nor were they that fond of me.
I had, you know, pimples and long hair and I wanted to be home with my friends.
But one of the first things we did, we went to this little town in, in, in the Rhone Valley called Chef de Nift de Pop, of course.
1:16
And we went into this winery and they was deep and dark.
And the wine maker started pulling wine out of barrels and giving it to me.
And I was tasting it and my parents.
And it was really amazing.
The space was amazing.
And I never had, what's it called alcohol.
1:35
And all of a sudden, all of a sudden I, I've liked my parents and they liked me and they let me chase wine that entire trip.
And so when I got back to my house in Woodland Hills, CA, I started collecting chef the nip to pop.
And how old were you?
1:50
I was 15 then.
And I'd go down with my wine to my, with my dad to Bend Dome Liquors and I'd buy wine.
I had a little wack rack in my room and the wines aged very quickly.
I love it.
And but then I was always the guy growing up and working in restaurants in high school and college that knew a little bit more about wine.
2:09
So I was always that wine guy.
And then in college, we, my roommate was a worked at high time and yeah, he'd bring home all the samples and you know, we were, we were playing poker and playing games and stuff.
Then we stopped doing that, started just tasting wine and reading about it.
2:24
And we were really into wine and, and the restaurants.
I was either cooking or or serving or managing at restaurants all through high school and college.
And then when I graduated from college with a degree in ABA in economics, I was unemployable.
And it was during a recession.
2:41
And I convinced my father that we should open a wine bar and the second wine bar in the western United States.
And this was mainly sorry.
Just to back up a little bit, my senior year of high school, we had a big house with two empty bedrooms because my brother and sister were gone and they had exchange students.
3:01
And my senior year at high school, we had a French college student come and stay in our house.
And yeah, so every summer after that, I went and visited her in France and we were very much in love.
And, and she lived in Paris and we went out to all the restaurants in Paris for lunch and dinner.
3:19
And then we went to her aunt had a place down in Laciotat in the South of France, and we went down there and I'm, I'm 18 years old.
This is a movie.
Yeah, I, I'm, we're going to Domaine Tom Pierre and drinking rose and picnicking in the vineyard.
And, you know, I really did at the time, I just didn't even realize how incredibly special it was.
3:38
And but it was and I learned a lot about wine.
I loved wine.
And, and, and so we went to these wine bars and I it was a concept that was sort of no one had done in, in, in America.
There was the London Wine Bar in San Francisco, which we visited to sort of do some Recon, and then we started this wine bar called the Wine Cask, right next to the Wine Cask Wine Shop, and it was not successful right off the bat.
4:07
This is the, I know you'd know math, and I know math people would come in and go $10.00 for a glass of wine.
Are you out of your mind?
And I said, well, what if I gave you a bottle for $40?
Would you buy that?
Oh, yeah, no problem.
What if I gave you 1/4 of that bottle for $10 by the glass?
4:25
Like, oh, that's insane.
That's way too much to pay for.
Of course.
I mean, it's like you can't even do the math.
But we're trying to introduce this concept.
You could come in and you could have a, you know, little plate of oysters with a glass of champagne.
And you could have a steak fried with a glass of Bordeaux.
4:40
And then you could have some Creme brulee with a little bit of Saturn.
And you don't have to buy 3 bottles, but you could have a really great one food experience.
And it was a it was a tough sell.
I used to have my parents come sit in the front window and, and people would walk by and go, oh look, there's people in there.
It was, it was not that successful until Barbara Fairchild wrote an article in Bon Appetit magazine and the rest was history.
5:04
The restaurant never looked back and she her article explaining what an incredibly unique and wonderful experience it was to come to the place where I was doing the cooking and also the serving that literally it was just a we had.
We had a 40 seats inside and about 12 outside.
5:22
And it was just in this little place in El Paseo downtown.
And it just took off and and sort of the rest is history.
But the really the rest is history part is one of the first people to walk through the door when I opened the little wine bar was Jim Clendenon from Obon Clema and then Bob Lindquist, of course was was.
5:41
Their.
Luminaries and I started buying their wine and then we, we all became incredibly fast friends and traveled all over the world together.
And I was the best man at Jim's wedding.
We started.
Jim Bob and I started our own company in 1986.
5:59
Yeah, I was 12.
Yeah, 1986.
And we started making wine together and then Jim bought me out in 1998 and I started Margot Wine Company in 2000 and in 2001.
You covered a lot of ground.
6:16
I loved it.
I mean, the beautiful, The beautiful part of what I just heard from you is quite honestly, I'm taking a deep breath as somebody who's in this industry is the very best part of wine.
You know, when you were talking about your parents and drinking wine and all of a sudden you like them, right?
6:33
I've always thought about wine is wine is a lubricant for community and when you open a good bottle of wine, you want to share it with someone.
It's like a good book that you hand to someone to go, Oh my gosh, I love this book.
Please read it or putting on a record and go, I love this song.
Please enjoy this with me.
6:48
You're, you're, you're I, I do this at wine maker dinners a lot.
I know you do a lot of these dinners where you're you have 50 or 60 people doing a set menu with wine and these people are all sitting at tables together.
They don't know each other.
And I said if only entire America could sit down and have a meal.
7:06
Our problems would be solved.
We would not have this discourse and this problem we have in of people not you compromise at the table, you like each other at the table, you talk reasonably.
I love the table.
It's one of my favorite places to be.
I love sitting at a table drinking wine, having, having food, enjoying friends, meeting new people.
7:24
It's just a great, great place.
I That's one of the greatest things I miss about Anthony Bourdain because he would go anywhere and he would be sitting with someone who was quote, UN quote our enemy.
And then you would go to someone's home and, and sit there and then and watch their guard come down.
Food and wine would come to the table.
7:40
And then their kids would come and run and jump on their lap.
And then all of a sudden you realize, wait a minute, this is just an this is just a different human being that lives on a different part of the planet.
Why would I hate this person?
I love this.
Person right?
It's interesting Bourdain, my son, who's now he just turned 29, was reading the they they re released Kitchen Confidential fantastic book, which is fantastic book.
8:04
And I read it as a young restaurateur and I just, you know, I loved it.
How to be a pirate?
Exactly what the pirate ship was exactly how we ran it and he but right before he he died, he re released the book with these big wide margins and wrote in the margins.
8:20
Got to rebuy it.
Things like Erica repair is not an asshole.
He's actually one of the best chefs in America.
I was wrong about about Emeril Lagasse.
He's foods incredible.
He he wrote all these things.
I was drunk when I wrote this, right?
And, and then so I reread Kitchen Confidential just recently with those notes.
8:40
And when I first read it, I didn't know what he sounded like because I'd never seen him on the radio.
Or now you read in his.
Voice, his voice was in my head.
I'm telling you, Keith, you got it.
If you love that book as much as I did, it's time for a reread, especially if you get this edition with the with the notes and the margin.
8:55
Spectacular right after.
This, I'm going to go do that back to the, the food and wine.
One of the things I've thought throughout my life in this conversation is so empowering because you know, a lot of, a lot of things are said about wine industry specifically right now.
9:12
And, and one of the things I, I'm a farmer first.
I'm, you know, we make wine 2nd.
And as a farmer, I'm an optimist.
I have to be because if you're not an optimist as a farmer, you probably won't be a farmer much longer.
One of the things I continuously talk to people about, and you seem like just the right person to have this conversation with, where when people think about wine as a beverage, they're missing 99% of the point.
9:37
I don't know if I said that first or Matt Kaner, who I know worked for you for a while and a good friend of mine and I love Matt.
I love that line because if it's a beverage, then you're not talking about a place.
You're not talking about you being 15 years old and, and drinking wine out of a barrel with, with your family.
9:56
And all of a sudden you liked your parents, right?
Or you're you're not sitting somewhere on a tailgate of a truck drinking the best bottle of wine you've ever had watching the sunset.
Yeah, it makes it has it, it delivers all the senses.
And so I think that the memories you have from wine are, are incredible.
10:12
And I, I love the French, you know, they don't their, their wine doesn't say product of France.
It says produce of France.
And it, it, it comes from a place.
And, and I think that's really, really important.
If I could just tell one, please.
Just quick, funny little story.
When I had the wine shop direct next door to the restaurant, the wine cast, this woman came in and she asked for a bottle of wine called EST EST EST.
10:34
It's a fish bottle.
It's a Trebiano from Italy.
It's about a degree above water.
It's not very good wine, but they do serve it in a lot of restaurants.
I said, oh, were you just in, in, in France?
She goes, oh, yeah.
And I said, did you have this rest this at a restaurant in a on the Mediterranean with those fishnets above it?
10:53
She goes, oh, yeah, I did.
That's amazing, you know that.
And I said, did you meet someone?
And she goes, I did.
I met a man.
And I said, it wasn't the wine, it was the wine sucked.
Correct.
But that's what wine brings to, to the, to the table and to experiences that it it makes.
11:11
It's such a memory maker.
She wanted to have that memory again by having that wine again.
It's the same reason in my life I I listen to certain songs from different eras of my life and I can be transported almost instantaneously back to the beach in Mexico or at this concert with friends or whatever happened after it.
11:28
The music was just the touchstone of the thing that I can physically go back to, to remember a memory.
That is so true.
And then now with all these these things coming out, the Billy Joel, the, the, the Bee Gees.
I literally cried at the Bee Gees movie because I forgot how important I mean, I was Bee Gees, you know, fuck, I'm sorry.
11:50
You know, I didn't, I didn't think the Bee Gees were someone I cared about.
But when you listen, you see that show, you hear that music.
You think of all those times you had this with.
People you were.
Doing things with Yes and same with the Queen.
Yep, Bohemian Rhapsody, all those shows, all these movies that are coming out by music and it just makes you.
12:08
It's also an incredible memory maker of his music.
I always think about art is how you decorate a space.
Music, you know, or decorate your excuse me, art is how you decorate your walls.
Music is how you decorate the space in between walls.
12:23
And for me, wine has always become the thing that you decorate the table with.
And whenever I want it to be transported back to somewhere.
I always think the most beautiful part about a wine is it has a year and a place on the bottle and it is a time machine and when you pull that cork you're going right back to 2000119981944IN some hill, some place, somewhere and you can point back and go there.
12:49
There it was.
It's fantastic.
That's it in I think we're both, I mean, obviously we both love more.
We do.
And I, I, I have I and I love your, your passion.
I was just writing something recently about my 25th anniversary bottling that I'm about to do.
13:05
We're about to release our 25th anniversary wines and I was trying to write the Bath back label and I'm like, So what is really, what do I really want to say here?
And, and I, what you just said was what I said.
I said I'm actually as passionate about what I'm doing right now as I was when I started 25 years ago.
13:23
I have not lost it and I hope I don't think I ever will.
But you when you meet people like yourself and who have just a deep abiding passion for wine and music and just lifestyle, it's really nice.
It's great.
Well, when you get into wine, when you get into food, when you get into music, when you get into art, when you get into anything that could have failed at any point along the way.
13:43
And somehow there's a beautiful thing that sits there.
To me, the you know, those aren't the things that AI is coming for, right?
AI in you just to throw it at the worst possible thing.
AI is is there to mimic.
14:00
It's not to give you an authentic real.
You have to be their personal experience.
I love the fact my cousin just said it to me about two weeks ago where we were talking.
He goes, have you?
Do you hear birds a lot?
And I said, yeah, I do.
And he said, you know, I just read something that says you only hear birds when you're in the moment.
14:21
Is that true?
I might.
I went.
Hear birds all the time.
I'm right?
And I thought about that for a second and I did realize that if you're scrolling through your phone, if your head is down, if you're not, if you're trading connectivity for community, you're not listening to the birds.
If you're outside walking, if you're in a place where you're like, you're saying you're relaxing.
14:41
You know that that that French exchange student that you tripped around France with.
But by the way, fantastic.
You know, you probably were just sitting there at some points where you're like, is this real life?
Yeah, it I I wish I had realized more at the time, but.
14:57
We never know when we're in the good.
Old days, but that's one of the things about living up here in in in San Diego's valley and where we live is and I was telling this to my girlfriend the other day.
I was just like, you know, every day, almost every day I see something that just I'm awed by and just it's so beautiful up here or something happens or something.
15:17
It's just, it's what we are so luckily likely able to do.
Is it, And I said it when I was in the wine business and not making any money because I started out at 200 and 4400 cases in a 240 square foot place.
15:33
I, I just saw my Social Security thing.
How much income you earned in those years?
And in 19, in 2001, I earned $0.00.
But I used to tell people I'm in this business for a lifestyle, not a living, and I'm still in it.
Obviously we have to make a living, we have children and things to support, but the lifestyle is just so wonderful.
15:52
But.
You do get to get drunk on your own success from time to time, and that, that feels pretty good.
Yeah, it does, but it's but it's interesting.
I always tell the joke.
How do you know a a a wine maker is in in a restaurant?
What's the punchline?
He's told everybody.
So I try not to be that guy.
16:11
No, no, I just mean there are days that I have come home and I'm like, why am I doing this?
And I walk straight through and I, I keep a lot of wine in our front room and I'll look at a bottle and go, all right, let's let's pop it and RIP a cork.
And then all of a sudden my mood's elevated and I'm, I'm chatting, I'm pouring it for my kids.
16:30
They're, they're having a sip.
I go, hey, we made this when we had no idea what we're doing.
What do you think?
And they're taking they're like, this is pretty good.
I like this, this is good.
What should we have for dinner?
And then all of a sudden, you know, the the pain of the day seems to roll away and and life's.
Good, it was nice to catch up before we started the show and hear about your kids.
16:48
And, and I always had this line that I, I make, I make 2 wines essentially.
I make wines that I, you know, like my rose and my Savio Blanc that we make, you know, large quantity there by the glass wines.
And, and I make those for my children because I need the clothes and feed them.
17:05
But then I also make wines for my children.
I make, you know, like my single vineyard Serras and my, my Chardonnay pinot noirs, some of the other label.
I make those for my children so that when I'm dead, they're pulling corks.
They think I was a good wine maker.
Yes, absolutely.
But I really have a strong policy of trying to drink OPW other people's wine because I think, you know, hopefully I do love my wine and, and, but I also really need to see where I fit into the whole program.
17:35
So I, I, I'm at the winery, we, we rarely drink our wine like at lunch and we're, we're just hanging out because we, we do lunch every day at the winery, but we always drink other people's wine.
Did.
You start that or did.
Clendenon started that.
No, I did it.
17:50
I did it to emulate Jim, Jim's situation.
And I think they're still doing it up at a bulky Mac.
You pay and I think Enrique is cooking the lunch now.
But Jim was just an incredible chef.
And when we first started, you know, I got my my cooking needs out at the at the winery because then I would cook every day and it just was a fun thing to do.
18:11
I don't do it that much anymore.
There's a full time person who cooks now at the winery.
She's very good.
She's getting so good.
But I taught a lot.
I taught her a lot.
What, what, what to make.
But it's just, it's, it's a really nice time to, for the whole, you know, we, it's, it's the classic front of the house, back of the house program.
18:29
The people who are farming and the people who are making the wine and the people who are selling and the people who are running the company all think they're the most important when everyone's equally important.
But if you all sit down again, the table and you have wine and food and you talk to each other, you understand each other, you know, they know, you understand the other people's job.
18:47
You can share your stories of what you do.
And it's just, it's a we, we don't obviously we do it as a, as a part of their employment and but it's really a meeting.
You know, you, you're bringing up some very interesting points that I haven't thought about in a while because one of the people that when you talk about like Jim or, you know, or, or, or Lindquist yourself, we had Louis Lucas in here a while back, which fantastic.
19:15
Who I always pour next to at every event, Yes, right, Because Lucas, I'm well and is L and then I'm M That's right.
One of the things I think about with the people that have gotten into wine, that group of people have launched a lot of ships.
And one of the things I was thinking about earlier in the week was this really great quote.
19:36
It's like if you want to build a ship, you know, you don't buy lumber and rope and things like that and then build a ship, you you first you get people and you get them excited about the vastness and the adventure of the sea.
And I think you guys did such a great job of that back when wine had didn't have the, IT wasn't cool to do.
19:58
Right.
It did have the cachet it has now for.
Exactly where now people want to do it to be cool, or they want a label or they want something.
So many people want to hold a bottle with their name on it.
And I think that's the least interesting part of all of.
It This is why we're in a downturn in the wine business right now.
20:15
And it's like, I'm good some there's a lot of people who need to get out there.
They don't, they don't know what they're in it for.
They have no passion for it.
Shaking out the culture vultures.
Exactly.
And I, you know, when I do a lot of consulting for a lot of wineries and the ones I don't work for is like, well, I want to get a high score.
20:31
Like, OK, well, that's not what I do.
You know, what do you what do you want to make?
Like I don't know what they don't they don't have no reason to be in the what business?
What?
Artists would say that, Yeah.
What artists would say I want to write a?
Book, it's a good review.
20:47
I want to exactly you a great art comes from a place where you have something burning inside of you that you can't get out.
Like I I'm unemployable now, right?
I truly am because I don't know how to get a job where I would be farming.
21:02
And I'm making something I'm proud of sharing it with people, creating community, you know, getting invited to people's weddings.
And then, you know, to the certain extent, I think one of the things that you and I share is we get to write the songs that people dance to.
You know what I mean?
21:17
That's a really.
Good.
That's a, that's a really good analogy to it.
That's I like that.
But you're unemployable also because you're never going to leave what you're doing.
And, and, and either either am I?
And you know, Richard Sanford, who's one of my idols and comes to my tasting room in Santa Barbara quite a bit because he's Richard Sanford and I make a lot of wines from his fruit and he gets the taste for free and blah, blah.
21:43
So I, I grabbed him the mom, I grabbed his hands and I'm like, Richard, when are you going to retire?
He goes, oh, no, no, Doug, we don't retire.
We just die.
Yes, I go, fuck.
I don't mean to say that again like, oh, you want to.
Bleep it, don't worry.
But Louis Lucas, right when he came in here, the conversation with him was was was fascinating just because there's someone who when he first moved here, there were 80 total acres.
22:08
Yeah.
Of grapes.
Yeah.
And to see someone with that staying power, right, I use the the term so God made a farmer.
It's a great poem.
It was, you know, Paul Harvey, read it on the radio to FAA future farmers of America.
22:25
And that, that poem's made me cry many times because you, you can become a lawyer, you can become a politician, you can become an accountant, right?
But to a certain extent, God makes you a farmer.
22:43
And when you become a farmer there, that's pretty much it.
You're locked in.
The fact that we get to give our fruit and mortality in a bottle of wine is, is probably one of the greatest, you know, adventures in farming that there possibly is because we're not growing a commodity.
We're growing something that has to be made.
23:00
And it comes from a place.
And just like when you go back to France in your mind and drink that or that Lady who drank that bottle of wine sitting on that underneath the Nets, right?
She's transported back to a place and that could be the best bottle of wine she's ever drank in her life.
It could well be.
And it's fantastic, yeah.
23:16
It's interesting though, I actually am not a farmer.
I came from it from the other side.
Yeah, I had the opportunity for, you know, 27 years to run a restaurant that had one of the greatest wine lists in the world.
Fantastic.
And I got to travel and taste wine all over the world.
23:33
And when I, when I did make a conscious decision to not be in the restaurant business anymore because it's really hard.
Yeah.
And I.
Being in the restaurant business is being a.
Farmer it it's a very different thing, but it it's and I, I essentially had to make a decision as if I was going to keep to eat the restaurant.
23:50
I started to start making wine and I consciously decided to to make, make wine and but I came I came to it from not the farming side.
I came to it from the I knew exactly what I wanted to make and I knew exactly how I wanted it to taste like.
And so I had that going for me.
24:07
But that's.
That's just like being a chef, you know, if you can source the right ingredients from the right person, who's who's raising the right beef and, and and bringing in the right fish and produce and everything very.
Similar you're talking my talk, it's I used the chef analogy all the time, and so I'm more of a chef than I am a farmer because I do.
24:25
But we have a.
Lot to take the best ingredients.
And I mean, obviously I, we have vineyards and we oversee them, but I, I, you know, my fingernails are too clean to really, to really be a, a farmer.
I totally understand.
So you have an event coming up that we want to talk about.
24:42
Yes, you know where the Santa Barbara Vintners Association has a offshoot called the Santa Barbara Vintners Foundation A.
Very important option.
Which is very important because the Vintners Association is clearly to promote the the come visit us.
24:59
Yeah, mainly now it's come visit us, but also to there's, there's an aspect of it that is to have people understand and know about Santa Barbara County wines, to promote the wines.
And so it's, and so we thought years and years ago that we needed to do something to, for our community and we started the Bintners Foundation.
25:21
I'm trying to think what year that was initially we did it in conjunction with direct relief and that's how it all started.
But we'd now have expanded our, our, our giving.
We, we work a lot with the CHC, which is community health centers, which are fantastic, these mobile trucks that go out into underserved communities where people can for free, get a, a diabetes test, get their blood pressure taken, get their teeth checked, get their eyes checked.
25:47
It's just, it's, it's serving for an underserved for free.
And a lot of it, quite frankly, are the people who work at the vineyards and the orchards and the strawberry fields and stuff that, that are all here in, in Santa Barbara County.
So we, we, we raise money and the, we raise money by doing different events.
26:03
So we have a wine auction every other year and we're having this really wonderful night coming up here on June 19th at Maddie's Tavern because we wanted to do something with right here in our own community.
And it's a it's a summer soiree.
Basically what it is.
26:19
It's a dinner you can buy tickets for you just go to the if you type Santa Barbara Vintners or Santa Barbara Vintners Foundation or summer soiree and do the website.
You can you can come and and join us and there's going to be some great wines.
There's going to be a little auction.
I just did my auction package right before I came here.
26:37
It's going to be a winemaker day.
You could come in the morning and go out and pick grapes and you're going to come back to the winery and test them.
And then you're going to go up to the top of the vineyard to have some, which we do all the time.
We're going to have some champagne and and some little breakfast.
26:52
We never do that, but we're going to do it if someone buys this auction package.
And you know, Maddie's does a great job.
They're they're really, really supportive.
They are fantastic.
Yeah, and it's been a wonderful addition to our community.
And totally agree, those Wine Wednesday things are just fantastic.
27:08
And you know, you walk into that place and it looks exactly like it looked when I visited it when I was a kid.
The Valley's delivery room.
Yeah, it's really, really good.
And so if you are, if people are interested in coming, please go to our website.
It's Friday night, June 19th at Maddie's Tavern and benefits not only CHC, but people helping people and a variety of very wonderful nonprofits in our community.
27:37
You know, you brought up the Santa Barbara Vitner's Association and the, the charitable aspects of it.
And one of the things I would love to say about the Santa Barbara Vitner's Association that I'm very proud of is one of the things that in our community, the center, the wine industry represents about $1.2 billion of economic impact.
27:59
And one of the things I am very proud of with the Santa Barbara Vitner's association #1 it's everybody's on the board is a is donating their time.
But in this world today, Santa Barbara County is the most restrictive wine region in the world.
28:18
And it's, it's really difficult.
And we are in a beautiful place that is very difficult to grow grapes.
The weather is perfect for growing grapes.
It is very difficult to make wine, even though it is a wonderful place to make wine because there are incredible amounts of rules and regulations.
28:37
A lot of not, not in my backyard.
So when you drive around and you see all of these vineyards, remember that they are #1 not landscaping.
These are feeding families.
They are the wines that are made go in in our Santa Barbara County, rarely go into private plane fuel.
28:55
They really go into supporting the local community and kids and t-ball teams and water polo teams and everybody who's working at those restaurants that are are collecting tips.
We are very, very fortunate to be in such a beautiful place that can grow such the world class product.
29:18
I mean, the the way I would say it with you sitting across from me and please accept these flowers is you can be anywhere in the world.
You can be making wine in any wine region in the world.
You could be anywhere else but here.
But the fact that you are here in this area and you have tasted wines from all over the world and yet this is where you choose to call home is a huge feather in the cap of Santa Barbara County.
29:46
And I am so proud of the work that the Santa Barbara Vintners Association does.
But quietly they are also with this charitable aspect, are really taking care of so many people.
And it is truly beautiful to see an industry where in any other industry people take more than they take, more than they give.
30:07
And I think in the Santa Barbara wine community.
It's amazing the the the generosity and the the amount of work that people do on on to help our community here in through through the fitness association and just individually and the economic impact is just staggering.
30:23
I went to UCSB, I got a degree in economics.
One of my teachers aides now is helps run the UCSB economic forecast and every year he's rates the crops.
I think strawberries is 1, broccoli is 2 and one grapes are three.
30:40
And I point out to him one, you're a bad economist because strawberries sometimes get made into jam, but they mostly just get eaten correct.
The broccoli, it doesn't get marked up four or five times as it goes through from being broccoli.
It's just broccoli.
It goes from broccoli to being eaten as broccoli.
30:57
Where wine grapes get turned into wine or sold by wineries, sold to retailers and, and, and there's additional tax revenue there sold the restaurants and there's no broccoli tasting rooms in Santa Barbara County.
There are tons of wine tasting rooms where people are educated about wine.
31:14
So it has such much an outsized impact on our on our on our county that isn't quite recognized.
And you the number you said I think is, is correct is 1.8 billion, but they just look at it as a as a crop and and value it at that where the multiple is so much, much more than that.
31:30
I just want to say thank you for giving up some of your time and coming in.
I feel like I made a friend, I hope.
You come now we're going to see each other all the time.
That's true.
Everybody you have been listening to a a real asset to the Santa Barbara County community with Doug Marjoram.
31:47
He is an advocate for our area.
He is a wealth of knowledge.
He, like I said, he could be anywhere else in the world.
And today he's here with us.
I just want to say thank you for coming in and chopping it up and I hope I get to see you again soon.
Good.
32:02
All right.
Thank you very much.
So everybody, this has been chopping it up on one O 5.9 crazy country.
I've been key.
Sarlos, back to your regularly scheduled programming.
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Who is Doug Margerum?
Doug Margerum is the founder and winemaker of Margerum Wine Company, a longtime Santa Barbara restaurateur, entrepreneur, and one of the most influential advocates for Santa Barbara County wine. He has spent decades helping build the region's reputation as a world-class wine destination.
What is Margerum Wine Company?
Margerum Wine Company is a Santa Barbara County winery known for producing Rhône-inspired wines that showcase the unique vineyards, climate, and terroir of Santa Barbara County and the Santa Ynez Valley.
What is Doug Margerum known for?
Doug Margerum is known for founding The Wine Cask in Santa Barbara, creating Margerum Wine Company, promoting Santa Barbara County wines around the world, and helping shape the region's hospitality and wine industries for more than four decades.
How did Doug Margerum get started in wine?
Doug's passion for wine began as a teenager during a family trip to France. A visit to Châteauneuf-du-Pape introduced him to the culture, history, and community surrounding wine, sparking a lifelong interest that eventually led to a career in restaurants and winemaking.
What was The Wine Cask?
The Wine Cask was one of California's pioneering wine-focused restaurants and wine bars. Founded by Doug Margerum in downtown Santa Barbara, it became known for its exceptional wine program, hospitality, and role in introducing guests to the wines of Santa Barbara County.
Why is Doug Margerum important to Santa Barbara County wine?
Doug helped introduce Santa Barbara County wines to a national and international audience through restaurants, hospitality, wine education, tourism, and winemaking. He has been a longtime ambassador for the region and its growers and winemakers.
What makes Santa Barbara County wine unique?
Santa Barbara County's east-west mountain ranges, cool Pacific Ocean influence, diverse soils, and long growing season create ideal conditions for growing world-class wine grapes. The region can successfully grow everything from Pinot Noir and Chardonnay to Syrah, Grenache, and Cabernet Sauvignon.
Why is the Santa Ynez Valley famous for wine?
The Santa Ynez Valley is home to some of California's most respected vineyards and wineries. Its unique geography, climate, and agricultural heritage have made it one of the premier wine-producing regions in the United States.
What does Doug Margerum believe about wine?
Doug believes wine is more than a beverage. Wine connects people, creates memories, brings communities together, and serves as a reflection of place, time, culture, and shared experiences around the table.
What is the Santa Barbara Vintners Foundation?
The Santa Barbara Vintners Foundation is the charitable arm of the Santa Barbara County wine community. It supports local nonprofits, community health programs, educational initiatives, and organizations that serve residents throughout Santa Barbara County.
What did Doug Margerum discuss on Choppin' It Up with Keith Saarloos?
Doug discussed his journey into wine, the founding of The Wine Cask, the creation of Margerum Wine Company, Santa Barbara County wine history, the pioneers who built the local wine industry, hospitality, entrepreneurship, travel, food, community, and the role wine plays in creating meaningful experiences and lasting memories.
Episode 49 : Larry Schaffer | Tercero Wines, Rhône Varieties, and the Evolution of Santa Barbara Wine
In Episode 49 of Choppin' It Up, Keith Saarloos sits down with Larry Schaffer, founder and winemaker of Tercero Wines, for an in-depth conversation about Santa Barbara County wine, Rhône varieties, and the remarkable growth of the Santa Ynez Valley wine region.
Widely recognized as one of the leading voices in Central Coast wine, Larry shares his journey from the corporate world into professional winemaking and explains how he built Tercero Wines into one of California's most respected producers of Grenache, Syrah, Mourvèdre, Viognier, and other Rhône varietals. The discussion explores vineyard sourcing, wine growing, small-lot winemaking, and the philosophy that has made Larry a favorite among wine collectors, sommeliers, and enthusiasts throughout Santa Barbara Wine Country.
Keith and Larry dive into the history of Santa Barbara County wine, the pioneering winemakers who helped establish the region's reputation, and the unique terroir found throughout the Santa Ynez Valley, Ballard Canyon, Los Olivos District, Sta. Rita Hills, and Happy Canyon AVAs. They discuss how the Central Coast wine industry evolved from a small agricultural community into one of the most respected wine destinations in the United States.
Along the way, the conversation covers entrepreneurship, business leadership, hospitality, vineyard management, wine marketing, restaurant culture, risk-taking, and the importance of building authentic relationships in both wine and business. Larry shares lessons learned from decades in the wine industry and offers insight into what separates truly great wineries from the rest.
Whether you're interested in Santa Barbara wine, California winemaking, Rhône varietals, vineyard farming, wine entrepreneurship, or the future of the American wine industry, this episode provides a fascinating look at the people and stories behind one of the most influential wine regions in the world.
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Episode 50: Larry Schaffer — Tercero Wines, Santa Barbara County Wine, and Why Curiosity Matters
In Episode 50 of Choppin' It Up with Keith Saarloos, Larry Schaffer, founder and winemaker of Tercero Wines in Los Olivos, joins the show for an in-depth conversation about Santa Barbara County wine, the Santa Ynez Valley, winemaking, hospitality, and the future of the wine industry.
Before becoming one of the most respected voices in California wine, Larry built a successful career outside the industry before making the life-changing decision to return to school, study viticulture and enology, and pursue his passion for winemaking. Today, Tercero Wines is known for Rhône varietals, small-lot production, vineyard-focused wines, and Larry's commitment to education, authenticity, and community.
Keith and Larry discuss what makes Santa Barbara County one of the most unique wine regions in the world, from its diverse microclimates and world-class vineyards to the independent wineries, family-owned businesses, and owner-operated tasting rooms that define the region. They also explore the challenges facing modern wineries, changing consumer habits, wine tourism, direct-to-consumer sales, and the importance of creating meaningful experiences around wine.
The conversation dives into topics including wine education, wine critics, wine tasting culture, hospitality, storytelling, social media, entrepreneurship, and why wine should be approachable and enjoyable for everyone. Larry shares his perspective on wine snobbery, the importance of curiosity, and why the best conversations often happen around a table with a bottle of wine.
Whether you're interested in Santa Barbara County wineries, Los Olivos wine tasting, Rhône wines, California winemaking, wine tourism, entrepreneurship, hospitality, or the people shaping the Santa Ynez Valley, this episode offers a fascinating look at one of the region's most thoughtful and outspoken winemakers.
Topics Covered
Who is Larry Schaffer?
The story behind Tercero Wines
Santa Barbara County wine history
Santa Ynez Valley wineries
Los Olivos wine tasting
Rhône varietals in California
Wine education and wine culture
Hospitality in the wine industry
Wine tourism in Santa Barbara County
Direct-to-consumer wine sales
Entrepreneurship and career reinvention
The future of California wine
Why curiosity is essential for success
Building community through wine
Frequently Asked Questions
Who is Larry Schaffer?
Larry Schaffer is the founder and winemaker of Tercero Wines, a boutique winery based in Los Olivos, California. He is known for his Rhône-inspired wines, wine education efforts, and leadership within the Santa Barbara County wine community.What is Tercero Wines?
Tercero Wines is a Santa Barbara County winery specializing in Rhône varietals and small-lot wines sourced from some of California's most respected vineyards.Why is Santa Barbara County wine unique?
Santa Barbara County features a rare east-west mountain range, diverse microclimates, long growing seasons, and the ability to successfully grow everything from Pinot Noir and Chardonnay to Syrah, Grenache, and Cabernet Sauvignon.What makes Los Olivos a popular wine destination?
Los Olivos is one of California's premier wine-tasting destinations, featuring dozens of tasting rooms, family-owned wineries, restaurants, hotels, and easy access to vineyards throughout the Santa Ynez Valley.What does Larry Schaffer believe about wine?
Larry believes wine should be approachable, enjoyable, and free from judgment. His philosophy is simple: drink what you like, share it with people you enjoy, and don't worry about what anyone else thinks.This episode is a conversation about wine, but it's also about curiosity, community, lifelong learning, and the people who make the Santa Ynez Valley such a special place to live, work, and visit.
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Larry Schaffer and Tercero Wines
Santa Barbara County wine history
Santa Ynez Valley wine country
Rhône varieties: Grenache, Syrah, Mourvèdre, and Viognier
Los Olivos wineries and wine tasting
Ballard Canyon AVA
Central Coast wine industry
Vineyard management and grape growing
Wine entrepreneurship and leadership
Hospitality, restaurants, and wine culture
California winemaking
Building a successful winery
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Who is Larry Schaffer?
Larry Schaffer is the founder and winemaker of Tercero Wines in Los Olivos, California. He is known for producing Rhône varietal wines, promoting Santa Barbara County wine, and serving as one of the region's most respected wine educators and advocates.
What is Tercero Wines?
Tercero Wines is a boutique winery based in Los Olivos, California, specializing in small-lot wines sourced from some of Santa Barbara County's most acclaimed vineyards. The winery is particularly known for Rhône varietals including Grenache, Syrah, Mourvèdre, Viognier, and Grenache Blanc.
How did Larry Schaffer get into wine?
Larry Schaffer did not grow up in the wine industry. After successful careers in the music and publishing industries, he returned to school, earned a degree in Viticulture and Enology from UC Davis, and moved to Santa Barbara County to pursue a career in winemaking.
Why did Larry Schaffer choose Santa Barbara County?
Larry chose Santa Barbara County because of its unique wine culture, diverse vineyards, collaborative community, and ability to produce world-class wines. He was drawn to a region that focuses on vineyards, farming, and quality rather than prestige and status.
What types of wine does Tercero Wines produce?
Tercero Wines produces a wide range of Rhône-inspired wines including Grenache, Syrah, Mourvèdre, Grenache Blanc, Viognier, Roussanne, Rosé, and other small-lot wines sourced from top vineyards throughout Santa Barbara County.
What does Larry Schaffer believe about wine?
Larry believes wine should be approachable, enjoyable, and free from judgment. His philosophy is simple: drink what you like, share it with people you enjoy, and don't worry about what anyone else thinks.
What makes Santa Barbara County wine unique?
Santa Barbara County is one of the most diverse wine-growing regions in the world. Its east-west mountain ranges, cool Pacific Ocean influence, long growing season, and varied soils allow growers and winemakers to produce exceptional wines from both cool-climate and warm-climate grape varieties.
What is the Rhône Rangers organization?
The Rhône Rangers is a nonprofit organization dedicated to promoting Rhône grape varieties grown in the United States. Larry Schaffer serves as a leader within the organization and is a passionate advocate for Rhône-style wines.
Why is Larry Schaffer considered an important voice in California wine?
Larry is known for his willingness to challenge industry norms, advocate for consumers, promote Santa Barbara County wine, and encourage open conversations about wine culture, hospitality, and education. His thoughtful and often contrarian perspective has made him a respected voice throughout the wine industry.
What did Larry Schaffer discuss on Choppin' It Up with Keith Saarloos?
Larry Schaffer discussed his journey into winemaking, the founding of Tercero Wines, Santa Barbara County wine history, wine education, hospitality, curiosity, social media, wine culture, the Rhône Rangers, and why wine should be fun, approachable, and accessible to everyone.
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Everybody, it's 10 AM on a Saturday morning and that means it's time to chop it up on one O 5.9 crazy country.
I'm your host, Keith Sarlos, and every week we get together with someone in the San Ynez Valley.
That makes it a very, very special place.
Sometimes it's people that are famous, sometimes it's restaurants, sometimes it's just people with great stories that they want to share.
0:21
And today we have a Vitner, we have a winemaker, we have Larry Schaefer, the mouth of the San Ynez Valley.
I hope we can keep this to 1/2 hour.
I'm I can sit back and just let, let Larry talk about the world and the state of the industry.
0:37
Larry's been a wine maker here in the San Diego Valley.
For how long now, Larry?
About 20 years. 20 years, a lifetime, a lifetime.
A second lifetime.
Second lifetime.
So tell us a little bit about yourself, Larry, for everybody who's listening, but also tell us a little bit about your brand and what brought you the saying as Val.
0:54
Sure, So I grew up in the South Bay of LA, did not grow up in a family that drank wine at all, so it was not part of culture whatsoever in high.
School I took pictures of.
Punk band in the LA music scene and I really wanted to get into music.
I started at UC Davis as an undergrad but again because of no interest in wine, wasn't thinking that route.
1:15
I was pre business which basically meant agricultural economics.
Probably would have been a smart thing to do but I didn't.
I ended up transferred.
To UC Berkeley graduating.
From the Haas Business School and my first job out of school.
Was with the largest record.
Distribution company in the world, who was that?
1:31
We are Warner Electric, Atlantic, they own sire slash, you name it islands sounded better than it was.
So I was on the finance side and I really wanted to get into the marketing side.
I listen, I've got a great vinyl collection from that I've got it was it was it was a good time in some ways, but I really wanted to get involved in marketing.
1:53
Being a number cruncher is not what I do.
And after 2 years, a couple of marketing positions became available.
One was given to a guy who worked his way up from the warehouse for seven years.
I'm like cool the and I had the CF OS backing.
I had my boss's back.
And the other was given to a woman who got along really well with the sales manager, wasn't working for the company at the time, and I was young and idealistic.
2:14
I'm like I'm out and I'll never forget when I.
Decided to leave the other.
People in my department like, well, how can you leave?
I'm like, how can you not?
They were so entrenched in their job and it was, you know, as a young 23.
I was.
It was eye.
Opening that people were stuck in their ways.
2:29
I'm like, I, I cannot do that.
I went into publishing, educational publishing and then trade publishing.
And about 25 years ago, I just got to a point where I wasn't happy.
Life was not challenging me whatsoever.
Started having kids, I really felt it was important to show them that you should enjoy what you do on a daily basis.
2:48
And again, wine was not part of my world, but I had gotten into wine.
I'm not a wine collector.
I'm just fascinated by the process.
I I had also never created anything and the concept of taking it, taking up taking something raw and making a product is something that is so darn cool.
3:08
And so I started going back to school, living in Orange County, taking classes at junior colleges with kids who could have been my kids.
OCC.
No Irvine Valley in Rancho Santiago.
Got it, Got it.
I did that for two years, worked part time at Temecula at a couple of wineries and then transferred back to UC Davis to get my masters in viticulture immunology.
3:26
So I kind of took it head on.
I realized that science wasn't that challenging as much as I thought it was at 18.
And then I moved up here.
So moved up here in 2005.
I really had no other.
I had interviews elsewhere.
I could have gotten a job in Napa.
3:42
I could have gotten a job in Sonoma.
I moved here because.
Of the vibe of this place.
And the fact that it's more about the product and less about the pomp and circumstance.
And I still feel very strongly about that.
And I've not worked anywhere else since.
3:57
I worked at Fess Parker for about 8 vintages, 9 vintages in the left to concentrate 100% of my own brand.
Yeah.
And my own brand's called Tercero means third in Spanish.
I'm a third child.
I was I.
Had three kids.
But I recently got remarried and I have a fourth, so I kind of screwed that up.
4:16
And then when I went to School of Davis's undergrad, the dormitory complexes were primero, segundo, tercero Y corto.
So I lived in tercero.
Third is 3 is not my favorite number.
Any kid my age you played soccer, 10 was your favorite number cuz that was Pele.
No one wanted to be a fullback and it just kind of stuck.
4:31
So I've been making wine since 2006, but it's really been since 1314 that have concentrated 100% of my own brand.
I've been a member of the Santa Barbara County Vendors Association.
I've been a huge Homer for this area.
I'm involved in an organization called the Roan Rangers, which is an advocacy group for roan varieties grown domestically.
4:52
I'm president of that board right now.
I put myself behind those things I feel strongly about in Santa Barbara County.
Wine is certainly something I feel incredibly strongly about.
One of the things, one of the reasons I wanted to have you on here is I've known you almost 20 years.
I mean a very, very long time now.
5:09
And when you were a lab rat over at Fess Parker way back in the day, you always had something to say.
You always had a great take on something.
You always had a great opinion.
And back in the day when it before you know, even before Facebook and everything else, you were right there in the message boards.
5:24
You know what I mean?
You were sharing thoughts.
You were at the best way I can possibly say it is you are a community builder, you like to be a part of a community and you want to be in the mix.
Would you say that's correct?
I I would say that, but I also definitely play a devil's advocate role.
5:41
Oh yeah.
And and I think.
Oh, you're my favorite contrarian.
I think every community needs that nowadays more than ever.
I think group think has become way too strong.
And that definitely is true in wine, but it's true in so many other things.
So I'm and also I, I love conversation.
5:58
And one of the reasons I make wine, wine is a conduit for conversation.
Pure and simple.
It's on the table.
Something to talk about.
Something to talk about and something to be a not necessary to the focus.
It doesn't have to be the focus.
But it creates.
Conversation around it and I just always loved that I'm I am the.
6:15
Stupid guy who still gets on the social media.
And gets on the political discussions with people because at the end of the day, I don't unfriend people unless they get nasty because I need to hear different opinions than my own.
The only way we understand the world is by understanding those outside of our realm.
6:31
If we only stick, and that's what happens these days, is everyone kind of sticks within their own little world.
And that's happening in the wine business too, for sure.
Let's take it.
I want to talk about your little hot take that you had recently that I watched the video and I was like, way to go, Larry, where you were talking about, you know, wine in general, but really the negative, you know, negative nancies of the wine world versus really having constructive conversations about wine.
6:58
At the core of wine, everyone in our industry claims that you should drink what you want to drink.
Sure.
And I think 3040.
Years.
Kind of like listen to what you want to listen.
Kind of like that kind of and I think. 30-40 years ago.
7:14
There was more open mindedness.
With regards to that.
Really.
I know, hot.
Hot, hot take by Larry.
Nothing I'm saying is earth shattering.
Nothing I'm saying is rocket science.
It's really, really simple.
It's an absolute for me.
7:30
I don't care what you drink, I don't care how you drink it.
But as a member of the wine community, people look towards me and you and Psalms and online wine.
Educators as experts.
And when an expert pans a certain wine and you like that wine, well, now you have an existential moment.
7:50
It's like, well, I like this wine, but I guess I'm not supposed to.
And it people laugh at that and say, well, come on, that doesn't happen.
I'm like.
Oh yes it does.
With wine, people don't have strong convictions, but the majority of people don't have strong convictions about what they should like and what they shouldn't.
8:07
They just like what they like.
But when an expert.
Says, by the way, I 100% agree with.
I mean, I think of wine like a joke, right?
If you laugh, it's funny, and if you don't laugh, it's not funny.
It's like music.
Yeah, I I never claimed that there's.
There's good or bad.
Music.
There's music you like and music you don't like.
8:23
And for me, when it comes to wine, I'll drink a glass of any wine.
The question is whether I'll drink a second class.
I and I don't care.
And you know, for me, you want to put ice cubes in my wine and people are like, Oh my.
Gosh, how could you allow?
People to do that, and the analogy I use is if you're a musician, you can't control the speaker somebody listens to your song on.
8:41
You can't control if they're listening to it in an elevator.
If it doesn't matter, they're listening to your music.
Yes, I had somebody in the taste room today.
He goes, well, this is my least favorite of your wines.
I'm like, cool, thank you for letting me know.
He goes, doesn't that make you mad?
I'm like, why?
I didn't make you dislike it.
I create a product.
8:57
If you like it, great and if you don't, that's totally fine.
Totally.
But I just don't think our industry gets that and the number of quote UN quote.
Educators over the last five.
Years that were drinking $2.00 check yesterday and are drinking Burgundy today and now laugh about all the people that are drinking Tubac chucker you name whatever brand you want to name it's ridiculous it it hurts our industry and it's hurting it more now than ever before at a time when we don't need that we need people coming to the table.
9:23
We need people with open minds to try whatever they want to try because ultimately, why do we care when somebody says, I would never put ice cubes in, in your wine?
I look at their shoes.
They say I will never wear those shoes.
If you want to judge, I've been judged all my life.
We've all been judged.
I've been judged and I'm, I'm done with it.
9:40
It's there's no need for it.
By not judging, we open the door and we allow people to do what they want to do.
And we just don't do that enough in our industry.
And that's true in this county, It's true everywhere.
We're not, we're not immune to that.
See, I couldn't agree with you more.
9:55
I think one of the things that I like, I always love using musical analogies with music, with wine specifically, because there are certain songs I love.
And I mean, I love this song.
I could cry about it.
There's songs I like, you know, scream at the top of my lungs.
10:11
I have songs that just remind me of my kids, right?
And does that make it a good song?
Does that make it a bad song?
Does that make it it just means that that song is important to me.
And when I think about wine, I always think of like, you know, art is how we decorate our walls.
10:32
You know, music is how we decorate our space and wine to me has always been how you decorate your community.
Like if you're sitting around a table with four people and, and you love them, you judge your you judge your friends by the wine you serve them.
I mean, that's a harsh reality of quiet.
10:49
But if you have someone coming over, everybody's got that little golden bottle that glows that they're just waiting for and especially some right night to drink it.
And they're like, tonight's the night, tonight's the night.
And they open it for their friends that maybe they haven't seen in years.
They want to have a great night and they want to make that that night memorable, that meal memorable, the people they're with.
11:10
And they open it and they sit down and go, hey, I want to share this, this, this one thing is important to me and I want to share it with you.
That doesn't mean it has to be an expensive bottle.
It doesn't mean it has to be something.
It could be a bottle you bought, you know, for 15 bucks 25 years ago because you were on some road trip somewhere and you happened to stop somewhere and talk to a guy like you and have a memorable conversation.
11:36
You go, hey, I want yeah, give me two of those.
And you drank 1 loved it.
And the other one you're like, I'm going to save it.
Price does not dictate special.
Varietals don't dictate special to me.
Just like you were using that analogy with music.
11:52
There are certain songs that become your song and you know, and, and you, you dance to it with your wife, with your girlfriend, with your spouse, with your partner.
And for some reason that that song just is part of your journey, your life.
And when you open that bottle of wine, same thing.
12:10
I agree.
Take the contrarians viewpoint, Larry.
I'll agree to some extent, but you know, at the end of the day, you know, if you're over in Europe.
There's a carafe of red.
There's a carafe of white.
You want Rose?
You're.
Going to blend them together.
12:27
You, you.
No one's on Vivino, no one's on Delectable.
You know, if we want to break down kind of old world, new world.
Old World is all about the culture.
Which and Keith what I love.
About you is, that's what.
You've been about and you embody that more than anyone else up in this.
12:44
Area.
It's the.
Culture.
It's not the status.
And I think the problem with wine these days and what you're talking about runs both ways.
OK, I want to share this.
I want to share this wine with you because I spent a lot of money on it.
13:00
I want to share this wine with you.
Because it's rare.
And that does happen, and I'm not saying that's what you're talking about, but I think that happens with a lot.
Of people, I agree.
With your sense that no.
It's just a special bottle and special.
Just means it means something.
It could be.
13:16
It could be a 20 year old.
Bottle of $2.00.
Check that you.
Forgot in your garage and it's part of your journey and I love that word journey.
My exactly what you were just describing, and I just want to clarify that is that, you know, sometimes price does dictate to somebody, it's uniqueness or special, or I spent a bunch of money on this.
13:36
Therefore it's important to me because they, they spent, I always equate time to money, right?
Of course, I spent this many hours working towards buying this thing that I wanted.
So it's how much of your life did you give up for that thing?
13:53
It could be a car, it could be a camera, it could be that one big purchase you made and then all of a sudden forever that's going to be associated with that for you.
I'm not using the same.
I could use the other side of that example, which I think is a negative, which is how many people got turned on to very specific wine brands that if you because they were in Las Vegas, NV and they were in Vegas and they were on a sales trip.
14:21
And maybe that person, I'm totally hypothetical, but I know this happens a lot.
Somebody gets taken out to dinner by some company and they order a bottle of Blankety Blank and then all of a sudden for the rest of their life they're going to equate.
And I know that this is the goal of that brand is to equate success with that wine because they were a success that night.
14:45
Maybe they didn't know very much about wine and now every time they drink it, it is become the thing that indemnifies their success.
The other side of that is I have drank expensive wines with people I don't like and I have drank very crappy wines.
15:01
And I don't mean crappy, but I just mean I drank wines that I, I didn't, I've never heard of, you know, whatever with on the sitting on a tailgate with a buddy.
And I would say I probably enjoyed the tailgate wine more than I enjoyed the expensive.
15:19
You should like this kind of a thing.
Because wine is a conversation piece and community.
So your story.
I can go back to that one more time and say.
When you're sharing that bottle.
We shouldn't.
Care what anyone else thinks.
We are just sharing that because it's special to us.
15:37
It's like if I play a song that I love and people go, I don't care.
I don't care because I love this song.
And if you don't like it, that's.
OK.
And I'm not.
Here to convince you otherwise.
That's the whole thing about wine too.
You know when somebody says you don't like something, I'm not here to convince them.
15:53
I might.
I might find out.
Why?
Because I'm a curious.
Person and I like to find out, you know, when when something doesn't happen, it's important to find out why as much as when it happens exactly the way you want to.
You get complacent that way.
I don't I never want to get complacent.
16:09
I always want to wonder, always want to wonder what if and why.
I have a wine that I just produced called curiosity.
And I call it curiosity because it's a word we use with kids we don't use with adults enough.
And that's really sad going on.
16:25
I know a bunch of tangents here, but no, no, no, I'm, I am, I am more curious now than I've ever been in my life.
And it's keeping me young and it's keeping me curious and it's keeping me wondering and it's making me want to communicate with people and talk to people and listen.
16:40
It's one of the things I was going to talk about with the challenges of the wine industry right now.
We talked about.
Storytelling and that's great, but wine is a two way St. communications a two way St. and I think our industry doesn't good do a good enough job hearing what people have to say.
16:57
We want to push upon them notes, we want to push upon them our story, but ultimately they're the ones we're hoping are going to buy this wine.
It's important for us to find out about them.
I spend more time hearing what people have to say than me talking.
17:13
Believe I know that.
Sounds like it's difficult to believe, but but I do.
And I love that every person who tries my wine or any wine has a different perspective than I do naturally.
And I want to bring that out.
I want people to say I don't like this because of, or I want them to say this reminds me of Grandma's perfume or those are the most beautiful things.
17:35
And I didn't make that happen, but I made a product that allowed them to time travel.
You bring up a very interesting point that I think we as a area that does produce arguably the best wine in the world.
I think we have the soil composition, we have the water table, we have the, you know, transverse mountain range.
17:53
We have the beautiful wind that blows through.
We have the longest growing season in the world.
We can grow Burgundy to Bordeaux within 30 minutes.
Nobody else in the world can do that.
You know, if God made a place to grow grapes here.
It is.
The interesting part of what you just brought up, if we take that, and then you brought up storytelling, 'cause I'm a huge proponent of that as well.
18:15
One of the things I love pointing out is that if you go to any winery in the Santa Barbara County, we have per capita, the smallest amount of corporate wineries in any wine region, I think, nationwide.
18:35
And would you agree or disagree with that hard?
To say but.
Definitely lower than those north of us, sure.
But I I'd have, I'd have to look into that.
But yes, we have a lot of grower operators here.
We have a lot of small wineries here that are not necessarily, I mean, we all need to make our money, but we're not necessarily in it for the money.
18:58
I tell people all the time, if all I wanted to do was make money in this industry, I know exactly where I go.
I know exactly the type of wines I produce.
I would be unhappy doing that entirely.
Soulless Commerce.
And listen, but I have no I, I, I respect those.
19:14
People as well.
I'm a fan of the business of business and everyone needs to succeed.
And the fact that large corporations do what they do and market what they do allow me to do what I do because they create a market for our product.
We differentiate our product.
One of the other things I wanted to talk about, which I mentioned in that video.
19:31
We need to be positive.
And our industry tends to.
This is what I wanted to.
Talk.
Our industry tends to try to step on other people to make ourselves taller, and there's no need to do that.
Santa Barbara County makes beautiful wines, arguably some of the best in the world, and we're still a young region and we have more diversity in what we produce.
19:52
And that's a double edged sword.
We've always known it's been a double.
Edged sword.
But we make great wines, and for the money, for how much we charge or how little we charge.
I don't think there's a county in California or in the country that can do what we do.
Our bang for the buck is, I always say we Santa Barbara County, if it does one thing, it's under promise and over deliver.
20:14
And that's great.
And the average wine here is better than the average wine in almost any other place in in in the US I'm contosed of that.
But wineries need to stop pointing fingers.
At.
Corporations are talking about additives and talking about be proud of what you do.
20:34
Use your positives rather than other people is what I say.
So I'm again the stupid person that goes on a social media and battles with sommeliers who make people feel bad about drinking things that they feel are below.
Them.
Psalms have a heart.
I have just personal.
20:49
Whether it's Psalms, whether it's wine buyers, whether it's wine educators.
I don't like the term wine educator, and the reason I don't is you go to a brewery, you just drink beer.
Yeah.
You go to a cocktail bar, you just drink cocktails.
You go to a winery.
Somehow you need to go to school.
Yes.
And there's a problem with that general concept because that's what makes wine seem more pompous, that you need to learn this foreign language.
21:13
It's one of the things I really strive to do.
I had accountants in my taste room earlier today.
I said let's talk LIFO and FIFO.
Let's go.
Yeah.
You know, if I have an artist, I'm music, I have a musician, I'm going to talk instruments.
I'm going to talk genres.
We and industry need to not make people learn a foreign language to enjoy wine.
21:32
We need to be as relatable as possible.
And one of the things that you brought a beer for a certain, for a, you know, as an example.
And I think one of the most interesting parts of the of wine in the last 20 years, right, is the wine snob has dissipated and the beer snob has elevated.
21:51
And I know enough friends who are in the beer industry and he goes, dude, you thought wine got wine guys were were bad.
Wait till you meet a beer guy.
Because they are very, very vocal.
And one of the things I think I'm if we're going to talk about positivity, I think one of the things that Santa Barbara County has done a fantastic job of is having people like you, like me, who are in their tasting rooms, right.
22:17
Your name's on the sign.
You're probably in the in the building.
Santa Barbara County to a certain extent has a huge proportion of people that are owner operators that are making enough money that they get to eat and live, you know, hopefully provide a better life for their kids than they have live in a beautiful place.
22:34
And hopefully we get to do it again next year.
The part I love is how many people have found Santa Barbara County and then come here and maybe we're the 1st place they've ever gone, right?
And we're and they go to three or four different tasting rooms over the course of the day.
22:49
They shook hands with the people that made it.
They heard the stories, they had conversations, they laughed, they did this, that and the other.
And then maybe go to another wine region and they're like, oh, this is different.
And you go, what was different about it?
And they said, I just felt further away.
And I love that term further away because we are right there on the curb, I think in Santa Barbara County.
23:11
And one of the things I am very positive about is not just the quality of wine, but the people who encompass San Ynez Valley, where you go to anywhere, you go to restaurants, you go to hotels, you go to wineries, things like that.
The mom and pop shop is still very much alive and well in the Santa Barbara County wine region.
23:31
From hotels, restaurants, everything, you know, top to bottom.
And those are the people who are like, no, no, no, I love doing this and I'll show you why I love doing this.
Do you agree?
I'm having you on.
So for the most part, there we go.
For the most, I mean, I think that there is, I think hospitality in the San Anez Valley is an interesting topic in and of itself.
23:53
Take it out of wine, but even put it in the wine, there are there's a there's a challenge there.
I think that some people have great experiences and other people not so great experiences up here.
Some of it is expectations, but for the most part I think we do set ourselves apart in the personality of the region.
24:14
Well, there is a difference between realness and hospitality.
Those are kind of two different things.
The.
Well, the best people do both, right.
And then, and that is a that is A and you can't, you can't train that.
The woman I have working in my taste room, I'm gonna I'm outing Becca.
She's awesome.
24:30
She has no wine experience.
People love her.
Yeah, because I don't have a script.
People come in, she'll talk about horses, she'll talk about your dad was an OBG for 70 years.
She talks about all this stuff.
24:46
They're captivated.
Life Experience.
And I hear this again and she, she kind of, she continues to come at me and say, but I don't, I, I feel uncomfortable with why.
And I'm like, great, I continue to feel uncomfortable with wine.
I don't need you to feel comfortable.
I don't want to retrain you.
You are.
25:01
I hired you and I, we have you because of your personality.
Yep, because of you.
Because of you, because you are a unique individual, we need more unique individuals.
But that's incredibly rare one.
It is.
It is because when we're hiring somebody, we're looking for somebody who has experience and somebody who's going to sell.
25:21
How many wine club sales did you do today?
Yeah, I don't care.
I'm in this for the next 30-40 years.
I'm going to be OK, but the last thing I want to do is make somebody feel uncomfortable or push them.
I think you brought up wine club because I think, you know, that's kind of a little bit of our bread and butter of any industry, right where it's like somebody comes in, they like you enough to to join, right, to sign up.
25:47
The beauty of that is and and you come, you have tons more information than me.
I mean, I know what's happening basically within my walls, but you're, you know, Rone Rangers have been around the industry a long way.
Do you think Santa Barbara County has a higher proportion of people that stay in wine clubs longer, or do you think there's a high turnover?
26:08
I know that's a little bit inside baseball, but my gut feel is people stay a lot longer.
I.
I think it's changing.
I think wine clubs in general are changing as people are not wanting to stay committed to a lot of things in life, a lot of things, unfortunately.
26:23
And, and I think that wine club is one of those things that somehow becomes, you know, a, a necklace or, or something around them that are like, I don't know if I want to wear this all the time.
Fair enough.
And there's a lot of wine out there.
And so I think that I think historically people are like, this is a great way for me to continue to have a good supply of wine.
26:44
But compared to 1520 years ago, there's just a lot more places to get wine.
Sure, you can go into a total wine.
You can go into a Costco, you can go into a Bev MO, you can go into whatever and pick up wine, including local wines.
See.
That's where I think for me, and this is just me being a little bit more editorial is like, I think the world has gotten to this place and there's there are leaders in this, right?
27:09
And one of the leaders I always look at it is the people who come up who like wine and they're going to go, you know, they want to go wine tasting today and they want to check out some stuff, right?
It's like shopping, right?
Those people that come into a taste room and we get to talk to them and they're like, hey, I like this and I like this.
27:26
Great, right?
There's a huge difference between that wine, which is not a beverage in my opinion, and walking into a total wine and picking something off of a shelf that you have very little connection to.
27:43
I see that the wine consumer or the the people who are really out there that say, hey, I bought this, I love this.
I want to share this with you are people who are making their purchasing decisions based upon connection and things like go back to music yet again, right?
28:05
We're on a radio station.
This is one of the last independent radio stations in California, right?
People are hearing songs right after this on the radio that they're listening to it.
Maybe they're going to go buy the album.
Maybe they're going to go make a next step.
28:21
Maybe if that band is coming to town, they're going to go see them.
But there's a lot of other places that people heard the band at that little radio, at that little show somewhere.
And they go, man, I really like this, this is good.
28:37
And they go, this is special to me.
And then watch those.
I'm bringing it full circle and watching those bands.
Maybe more and more and more people find out about those bands or artists and they become more and more popular.
And this is the challenge for Santa Barbara County, and this is where marketing comes in and this is where getting down South because if you're a band that plays a song on a radio station.
29:05
Got a?
Tour.
You got a tour, you got to get out.
And I've always called myself a 70s garage band as a wine maker because I have no problem.
You need me in Pacoima tomorrow.
I'm there because ultimately the only way you're going to know you like something, just like the only way you're going to know if you like a song is somebody has to play it.
29:22
Now, we can't control whether they like it, but we want to be a part of the discussion.
And that's where my it's been a 20 year battle for me to know that people in Southern California don't know that we exist.
And it's it, it, it, it, it, in some ways it hurts, but in some ways it's really hopeful because that means we have opportunities.
29:42
We have not even scratched the surface of those opportunities.
When I drive to Orange County and I see how many wines from regions north of us are being poured there, I know our wines could be there.
It's just a matter of how do we make that happen?
OK, lots of ways.
29:57
So Larry, we've talked for about 1/2 hour.
I have a question for you.
Can you stay on for one more half hour?
I.
Wish I could, but I can't.
You'll have to.
You'll have to have me back.
Oh, I'd love to bring it.
So everyone, this is Keith Soros and this has been with Larry Schaefer of of Tricera Wines.
30:14
He's located right at.
Right in the middle of Los Alivos, right around the corner from Keith.
I don't say.
That I am, I'm, well, I call myself.
I'm in.
I'm in the Bermuda Triangle of taste rooms, unfortunately because everyone around me is a lot more well known than I am branding.
30:32
So for those of you who know the area, I'm across the street from Stoltman, right in between Dragon Head and Liquid.
Farm very close to lucky.
Penny, which just opened up.
You're gonna hopefully pay me for that.
My son's working there now.
Perfect.
So I'm right.
I'm in the midst.
30:48
Of all of these, tasty.
Rooms we make a lot of different wines.
You know, we kind of pride ourselves in not quote UN quote toeing the line and and just making what everyone else is doing.
And I don't do that for any other reason than I'm a really curious winemaker.
Larry, I wanted to have you in for a few different reasons.
31:04
One, I love how outspoken and positive you are for the Santa Barbara County wine region.
I think you're, we are so incredibly lucky to have you.
You know, honestly, I think there's so many people that get into wine because they maybe were successful at something else in their life and then they just want to hold the bottle with their name on it.
31:21
There's a lot of that in wine and then there's a lot of people who are in it for the love of the game.
And one of the things I have always loved and respected about you, I haven't always agreed with you, which I also appreciate.
But you have been in it for the love of the game for 20 years and you have created great wines.
31:38
You have created great community.
You have been an outspoken member of the Santa Barbara community.
Online, in person, will step up to the mic when need be.
You're not hiding from anybody.
You are speaking your heart and speaking your mind for a huge community of people that literally feed their kids by either growing grapes or making wine or working in our our wonderful service industry in Santa Bar in the San Anez Valley in Santa Barbara County.
32:08
Because one of the things I love thinking about is you know, the wine industry in Santa Barbara County is like a one has a one point bill, $1.2 billion economic impact.
So everybody who thinks that a winery is some billionaire that doesn't have to do that and they don't care if they make money or lose it.
32:33
That may be true in some regions, but there are 200 and 5300 wineries in Santa Barbara County.
And I think a vast majority of them are like you and like me that are in it for the love of the game and are are here to see it thrive and survive.
32:51
I couldn't agree more.
Two things I want to say 1.
I also have gotten to a point in my life where I'm incredibly comfortable and happy and more outspoken and just not caring at this point.
33:07
And not that I don't care, I care about everything.
I just don't care about how people are going to react because ultimately.
I speak what I believe.
And then the last thing I want to say is I am just so darn proud sitting here across from you.
I have seen, I have seen an evolution in you over.
33:27
The last 20 years that.
I don't think you necessarily would have seen in yourself if you look back 20 years and look at yourself now and if you are not proud of the person you are and the And not only that, as a spokesperson for this valley, I know you don't.
33:43
Believe you are.
You are.
Probably more so than anyone else, it's an honor to call you a friend.
Oh, Larry, you're the best.
We're going to cut that out.
So everybody, this is Vinke Sarlos and Larry Schaeffer of Tricera Wines, located right in the heart of Los Solivos.
33:59
Go into his tasting room, bring an opinion.
Larry will probably have a contrarians viewpoint, which has which is fantastic.
The world needs more contrarians.
It really does it.
What the world needs is more people that force you to think.
And I think that's one of the things that you do so well.
34:15
And I'm definitely having you back sooner than later.
So this has been Keith Sarlos on chopping it up on 105.9 Crazy Country.
Back to your regularly scheduled programming.
How long have you been in ... I know wine isn't only, is only a small part of your story. How did, how did your story in Santa Barbara County really begin?
Well, it, it, it, it ... My story in wine began before I even moved to Santa Barbara to go to college here.
Yeah.
Um-
Where'd you grow up?
I grew up in Los Angeles.
Okay.
Um, we kind of ... It, the, the weird thing was my parents took the kids on a, on a European vacation, uh, when I was 14 years old. Awesome. And I was a mistake child, so my brother and sister, as soon as we hit France, split. And so I'm stuck with my parents, who I was not that fond of, nor were they that fond of me.
I had, you know, pimples and long hair, and I wanted to be home with my friends. But one of the first things we did, we went to this little town, uh, in, in, in the Rhône Valley called Châteauneuf-du-Pape. Of
course,
yes. And we went into this winery. Yep. And they, it was deep and dark, and the winemaker started pulling wine out of barrels and giving it to me.
Mm-hmm. And I was tasting it, and my parents, and it was really amazing. The space was amazing. And I'd never had, um, what's it called? Alcohol.
Yes. It's a
magic elixir. And all of a sudden, all, all of a sudden, I g- I liked my parents. Yeah. And they liked me, and they let me taste wine that entire trip. And so when I got back, uh, to my house in Woodland Hills, California-
Yep
I started collecting Châteauneuf-du-Pape. And, uh- How
old were you?
I was 15 then. Fantastic. And I'd go down with my wine to my, with my dad to Vendome Liquors, and I'd buy wine. I had a little rack, rack in my room, and the wines aged very quickly. I love
it.
And, uh, but then I was always the guy growing up and working in restaurants in high school and college that knew a little bit more about wine.
Yeah. So I was always that wine guy. And then in college, uh, we, my roommate was, uh, worked at High Time, and- Yeah ... he'd bring home all the samples. And you know, we were, we were playing poker and playing games and stuff. Then we stopped doing that and started just tasting wine and reading about it, and we were really into wine.
And, and, uh, w- the restaurants, I was either cooking or, or serving or managing at restaurants all through high school and college. And then when I graduated from college with a degree in a BA in economics, I was unemployable.
Mm-hmm.
And it was during a recession, and, uh, I convinced my father that we should open a wine bar.
Wow.
And the second wine bar in the Western United States. And this was mainly ... Sorry, just to back up a little bit. My senior year of high school, we had a big house with two empty bedrooms 'cause my brother and sister were gone. Yeah. And they had exchange students. And my senior year of high school, we had a French, uh, college student, uh, come and stay in our house.
And, yeah, uh, so every summer after that, I went and visited her in France, and we were very much in love. And, and, uh, she lived in Paris, and we went out to all the restaurants in Paris for lunch and dinner, and then we went, uh... Her aunt had a place down in La Ciotat in the south of France, so we went down there.
And I'm, I'm 18 years old.
This is a movie.
And I, and we're going to Domaine Tempier and drinking rosé and picnicking in the vineyard. And, you know, I really d- at the time, I didn't, I just didn't even realize how incredibly special it was, and but it was. And I learned a lot about wine. I loved wine. And, and, um, and so, uh, we went to these wine bars.
Yeah. And I... It was a concept that was sort of no one had done in, in, in America. Yeah. Uh, there was the London Wine Bar in San Francisco, which we visited to sort of do some recon. And then, um, we started this wine bar called The Wine Cask, right next to the Wine Cask wine shop, and it was, um, uh, not successful right off the bat.
Um, this is the... I, I know you know math, and I know math. Um- Mm-hmm ... people would come in and go, "$10 for a glass of wine? Are you out of your mind?"
Sure.
And I said, "Well, what if I gave you a bottle for $40? Would you buy that?" "Oh, yeah, no problem."
Mm-hmm. "
What if I gave you a quarter of that bottle for $10, uh, by the glass?"
Like, "Oh, that's insane. That's way too much to pay for-"
Of course.
I mean, it's, it's like you can't even do the math. But we, we were trying to introduce this concept that you could come in, and you could have a, you know, a little plate of oysters with a glass of champagne. And you could have a, a, a steak frites with, uh, a glass of Bordeaux.
And then you could have some crème brûlée with a little bit of Sauternes. And you don't have to buy three bottles, but you could have a really great wine and food experience. And it was a, it was a tough sell. I used to have my parents come sit in the front window, and, and people would walk by and go, "Oh, look, there's people in there."
Um, it was, it was not that successful until Barbara Fairchild wrote an article in Bon Appétit magazine, and, um, the rest was history. The restaurant never looked back. And she... Her article explaining what an incredibly unique and wonderful experience it was to come to, uh, the place where I was doing the cooking and also the serving, literally it was just a...
We had, ooh, we had, uh, 40 seats inside and about 12 outside, and it was just in this little place in El Paseo downtown.
Yeah.
And it just took off, and, uh, and then sort of the rest is history. The, the... But the, really, the rest is history part is one of the first people to walk through the door when I opened the little wine bar was Jim Clendenen-
Mm
uh, from Au Bon Climat.
Mm.
And then Bob Lindquist, of course, was, was there all the time. Luminaries, yeah. Luminaries. And I started buying their wine, and then we, we all became incredibly fast friends and traveled all over the world together, and I was the best man at Jim's wedding. Um, we started... Jim, Bob, and I started our own company in 19- '86.
Yeah, I was 12. Yeah, 1986. Hmm. Uh, and, uh, we started making wine together, and then Jim bought, uh, me out in 1998, and I started Marcher Wine Company in 2000 and, um, in 2001.
You covered a lot of ground. I loved it. I mean, the beauti- the beautiful part of what I just heard from you is Quite honestly, I'm taking a deep breath as someone who's in this industry, is the very best part of wine.
You know, when you were talking about your parents and drinking wine, and all of a sudden you like them, right? I've always thought about wine as wine is a lubricant for community. And when you open a good bottle of wine, you wanna share it with someone. It's like a good book that you hand to someone and go, "Oh, my gosh, I love this book.
Please read it." Or putting on a record and go, "I love this song. Please enjoy this with me."
You're, you're, you're, you're... I, I do this at winemaker dinners a lot. Yeah. And I know you do a lot of these dinners where you're, you have 50 or 60 people- Yeah ... we're doing a, a set menu with wine, and these people are all sitting at tables together.
Yeah. And they don't know each other. Yeah. And I, and I said, "If only-
Yes ...
entire America could- Yes ... sit down and have a meal and, and
drink wine."
Our problems would be solved. We would not have this discourse and this problem we have in, in... of people not... You compromise at the table. You like each other at the table.
You talk reasonably. I love the table. It's one of my favorite places to be. Mm-hmm. I love sitting at a table, drinking wine, having, uh, having food, enjoying friends, meeting new people. It's just a great, great place.
I, that's one of the greatest things I miss about Anthony Bourdain because he would go anywhere, and he would be sitting with someone who was, quote-unquote, "our enemy."
And then he would go to someone's home and, and sit there, and then, and watch their guard come down. Food and wine would come to the table, and then their kids would come and run and jump on their lap. And then all of a sudden you realize, "Wait a minute, this is just an, this is just a different human being that lives on a different part of the planet."
Right. "
Why would I hate this person? I love this person."
Yeah.
Right?
It's interesting you brought up Bourdain. Um, my son, who's now, he just turned, uh, 29, uh, was reading the, uh, they, they re-released Kitchen Confidential- Yeah.
Fantastic
book ... and, which is fantastic book, and I read it as a young restaurateur, and I just, you know, I loved it.
How to be a pirate.
Exactly right . The pirate ship was exactly how we ran it. Yes. And he, uh, but, uh, right before he, he died, he re-released the book with these big wide margins- Hmm ... and wrote in the margins-
I've gotta re-buy it ...
things like, "Eric Ripert is not an asshole. He's actually one of the best chefs in America."
Yeah. "
I was wrong about, uh, about Emeril Lagasse. His food's incredible." He, he wrote all these things, or, "I, I was drunk when I wrote this." Right. And, and, and then so I re-read Kitchen Confidential just recently with those notes.
Mm-hmm.
And when I first read it, I didn't know what he sounded like 'cause I'd never seen him on the radio or TV.
Now you read it
in his voice.
His voice was in my head. Oh, fantastic. I'm telling you, Keith, you gotta... If you loved that book as much as I did- I do ... it's time for a re-read, especially if you can get this edition with the, with the notes in the margin. I'm- Spectacular ...
right after this I'm gonna go do that.
Yeah. Um, back to the, the food and, uh, wine. Um, one of the things I've con- thought throughout my life, and this conversation is so empowering- Because, you know, a lot of, a lot of things are said about wine industry specifically right now, and, and one of the things I, um, I'm a farmer first. I'm, you know, we make wine second, and as a farmer, I'm an optimist.
I have to be, because if you're not an optimist as a farmer, you probably won't be a farmer much longer One of the things I continuously talk to people about, and you seem like just the right person to have this conversation with, where when people think about wine as a beverage, they're missing 99% of the point.
I don't know if I said that first or Matt Kaner, who I know worked for you for a while, um, and a good friend of mine, and I love Matt. Um, I love that line because if it's a beverage, then you're not talking about a place. You're not talking about you being 15 years old and, and drinking wine out of a barrel with, with your family, and all of a sudden you liked your parents.
Yeah. Right? Right. Or you're, you're not sitting somewhere on a tailgate of a truck drinking the best bottle of wine you've ever had watching the sunset.
Yeah, and it makes... It has... It, it delivers all the senses. Absolutely. And so I think that the memories you have from wine are, are in- incredible, and I, I love the French, you know?
They don't... Their, their wine doesn't say product of France. Correct. It says produce of France.
Yes, yes.
And it, it, it comes from a place and, and I think that's really, really important. If I could just tell one other- Please do ... very just quick- Tell as many as you want ... quick, funny, little story. I love it.
When I had the wine shop direct- next door to the restaurant- Yeah ... The Wine Cask, this woman came in and she asked for a bottle of wine called Est! Est!! Est!!! Mm-hmm. It's a fish bottle.
Mm-hmm.
It's a Trebbiano from Italy. It's about a, a degree above water. It's not very good wine. Mm-hmm. Um, but they do serve it in a lot of restaurants, and sh- I said, "Oh, were you just in, in, in France?"
She goes, "Oh, yeah." And I said, "Did you have this rest- this at a restaurant in a, on the Mediterranean with those fish nets above it?" She goes, "Oh, yeah. I, I did. That's amazing you know that." And I said, "Did you meet someone?"
Mm-hmm.
And she goes, "I did." Yes. "I met a man."
Yes.
And I said, "It wasn't the wine."
It wasn't.
"The wine sucked."
Correct.
But that's what wine brings t- to, to the, to the table and to experiences, and it, it makes... It, it's such a memory maker. She wanted to have that memory again by having that wine again.
It's the same reason in my life. I, I listen to certain songs from different eras of my life, and I can be transported almost in- instantaneously back to the beach in Mexico or at this concert with friends or whatever happened after it.
The music was just the touchstone of the thing that I can physically go back to, to remember a memory.
That is so true, and then now with all these, these things coming out- Yeah ... the Billy Joel, the, the, the, uh, Bee Gees.
Yeah.
I literally cried at the Bee Gees movie- Fantastic ... because I forgot how important...
I mean, I was Bee Gees, you know, fine. Sure. I mean, they're... I'm sorry. Is that funny for that? Um, the, you know, I didn't, I didn't think the Bee Gees were someone I cared about.
Right,
right. But then when you listen, you see that show- Yeah ... you hear that music, you think of all those times you had this with people you were- Oh, yeah
doing things with. Yes. And same with the Queen.
Yep.
Bohemian Rhapsody. Yep. And all those shows, all these movies that are coming out about music, and it just makes you... It's also an incredible memory maker is, is music and- I,
I always think about art is w- how you decorate a space music, you know, or decorate your, excuse me.
Art is how you decorate your walls. Music is how you decorate the space in between walls. Right. And for me, wine has always become the thing that you decorate the table with.
Right.
And whenever I wanna be transported back to somewhere, I always think the most beautiful part about a wine is it has a year and a place-
Yeah
on the bottle.
Yeah.
And it is a time machine. And when you pull that cork, you're going right back to 2001-
Yeah ...
1998, 1944- Yeah ... in some hill, some place, somewhere, and you can point back and go, "There I, there it was."
Yeah.
It's fantastic. Yeah.
It's an, I think we're both, I mean, obviously we both love wine . Oh, we do.
And I, I, I have, I... And I love your, your passion. I was just writing something recently about my 25th anniversary bottling-
Yeah ...
that I'm about to do for- Congratulations ... we're about to release our 25th anniversary wines, and I was trying to write the bas- back label, and I'm like, "So what is really, what do I really wanna say here?"
And, and I, what you just said was what I said. I said- Hmm ... I'm actually as passionate about-
Yeah ...
what I'm doing right now as I was when I started 25 years ago. Mm-hmm. I've not lost it, and I hope, I don't think I ever will. But you, when you meet people like yourself and who have just a deep, abiding passion for wine and music- Yeah
and just lifestyle, it's really nice. It's great. It,
well, when you get into wine, when you get into food, when you get into music, when you get into art, when you get into anything that could have failed at any point along the way, and somehow there's a beautiful thing that sits there, um, to me, the, you know, those aren't the things that AI is coming for, right?
AI, in, you know, just to throw it at the worst possible thing, AI is, is there to mimic. It's not to give you an authentic, real, you have to be there personal experience.
Right.
Um, I love the fact, my cousin just said it to me about two weeks ago, where we were talking. He goes, "Have you, do you hear birds a lot?"
And I said, "Yeah, I, I do." And he said, "You know, I just read something that says you only hear birds when you're in the moment."
Is that true?
I, my, I went-
I hear birds all the time .
I'm, right. And I, I thought about that for a second, and I did realize that if you're scrolling through your phone, if your head is down, if you're not, if you're trading connectivity for community-
Yeah
you're not listening to the birds If you're outside walking, if you're in a place where you're, like you're saying, you're relaxing, you know, that, that g- that French exchange student that you tripped around France with, but by the way, fantastic. You know, you probably were just sitting there at some points where you're like, "Is this real life?"
Yeah. It w- it, I, I wish I had realized more at the time. Of course. But, uh-
We never know when we're in the good old days ...
but, but that's one of the things about living up here in, in, in Santa Ynez Valley and, and where we live is, and I was telling this to my girlfriend the other day, I was just like, you know, every day, almost every day I see something- Yes
that just I'm awed by. Yeah. And, and just it's so beautiful up here, and there is something, or something happens or something, uh, you know, it's just, uh, it's, it's a, th- what we are so luckily, luckily able to do- Yeah ... is that, and I said it when I was in the wine business and not making any money, because I started out at 240, 400 cases in a 240 square foot place.
I- Yeah ... I just saw my Social Security thing, how much income you earned in those years, and in 19- in 2001, I earned zero- Zero ... dollars. Uh, but I used to tell people I'm in this business for a lifestyle, not a living. Mm-hmm. And I'm still in it. Obviously, we have to make a living. We have children- Sure ... and things to support, but, uh, the lifestyle is just so wonderful.
But you do get to get drunk on your own success from time to time, and that, that feels pretty good.
Yeah, it does. It, it's, but it's interesting, um, I always tell the joke, how do you know a, a winemaker is in, in a restaurant?
What's the punchline?
He's told everybody.
Yeah.
So I try not to be that guy.
No, no. I just mean th- there are days that I have come home and I'm like, "Why am I doing this?"
Yeah. And I walk straight through, and I g- I keep a lot of wine in our front room. And I'll look at a bottle and go- That's- "All right" ... yeah. "Let's, let's pop it" Yeah ... and rip a cork, and then all of a sudden my mood's elevated. Yeah. I'm, I'm chatting. I'm pouring it for my kids. Yeah. They're, they're having a sip.
I go, "Hey, we made this when we had no idea what we're doing. What do you think?" Yeah. And they're taking it, they're like, "Hey, this is pretty good. I like this. This is good." Yeah. "What should we have for dinner?" And then all of a sudden, you know, the, the pain of the day seems to roll away- Yeah ... and, and life's good.
It,
it was nice to catch up, uh, before we started the show and hear about your kids and, and, uh-
Yeah ...
I always had this line that I, I make, I make two wines, essentially. I make wines that I, you know, like my rosé- Yeah ... and my sauvignon blanc that, that we make, you know, large quantity. They're by-the-glass wines.
Mm-hmm. And, and I make those for my children because I need to clothe and feed them.
Believe
me. Uh, but then I also make wines for my children. I make, you know, like my single vineyard Syrahs and my, my Chardonnay and pinot noirs under the other label. I make those for my children so that when I'm dead-
Mm-hmm
and they're pulling corks, they think I was a good winemaker.
Yes, absolutely.
But I really have a strong policy of trying to, uh, drink, uh, OPW.
Hmm.
Other people's wine.
Yeah.
Uh, because I think, uh, uh, y- you know, hopefully I do love my wine. Sure. And, and, but I also really need to see where I fit into the whole program.
So I, I, I'm ... At the winery we, we rarely drink, uh, our wine, like, at lunch- Yeah ... and we're, we're just hanging out, 'cause we, we do lunch every day at the winery. Yeah. But we always drink other people's wine.
Did you start that or did Clendenon
start that? Clendenon started that. No, I did it- Okay ... I did it to emulate Jim- Mm
Jim's situation, and I think, you know, they're still doing it up at Au Bocuse my Q pay.
Yeah.
Uh, and I think Enrique's cooking the lunch now, but Jim was just an incredible chef. And I, when we first started, uh, you know, I got my, my cooking- needs out at the, at the winery because then I would cook every day, and it just was a fun thing to do.
I don't do it that much anymore. Mm-hmm. There's a full-time person who cooks now at the winery. Yeah. She's very good. She's getting so good, but I taught a lot, I taught her a lot what, what, what to make. But, uh, uh, it's just, it's, it's a really nice time to, for the whole s- you know, we, it's, it's the classic front of the house, back of the house- Sure
program. The people who are farming it, and the people who are making the wine, and the people who are selling it, and the people who are running the company all think they're the most important. Mm-hmm. When everyone's equally important. But if you all sit down, again, the table- Yeah ... and you have wine and food, and you, you, you talk to each other, you understand each other.
You know, they know, you understand the other people's job. You can share your stories of what you do. And it just, it's, uh, we, we don't, obviously we do it as, uh, as a, as a, a part of their employment. Yeah. Uh, and, but it's really a meeting.
You know, you're, you're bringing up some very interesting points that I haven't thought about in a while.
Because one of the people that, when you talk about, like, Jim, or, you know, or, or, or Lindquist, yourself, um, we had Louis Lucas in here- Yeah ... a while back, which, fantastic.
Who I always pour next to at every event.
Yes,
right. 'Cause Lucas- L and M ... and Lewellen is- Yes ... L and then I'm M.
That's right. One of the things I think about with the people that have gotten into wine, um, that group of people have launched a lot of ships.
Yeah.
And one of the things I was thinking about earlier in the week was this really great quote. It's like, "If you wanna build a ship, you know, you don't buy lumber and rope and things like that, and then build a ship. You, you first, you get people, and you get them excited about the vastness and the adventure of the sea."
Mm-hmm.
And I think you guys did such a great job of that back when wine had, didn't have the It wasn't cool to do- Yeah ... right?
It didn't have the cachet it has now, for sure.
Exactly. Yeah. Where now people wanna do it to be cool, or they want a label, or they want something. They ... So many people wanna hold a bottle with their name on it, and I think that's s- the le- Yeah
the most, the least interesting part of all of it.
Keith, this is why we're, you know, we're at a downturn in our, in the wine business- Yeah ... right now, and it's like, I'm good. Some- there's a lot of people who need to get out. Yeah. They're- they don't, they don't know what they're in it for, they have no passion for it.
Shaking out the culture vultures.
Exactly. Yeah. And I, you know, we- I do a lot of consulting for a lot of wineries, and the ones I don't work for, it's like, "Well, I wanna get a high score." Like, okay, well, that's not what- Well, why? ... not what I do. Yeah. Uh, you know, what do you, uh, uh, what do you wanna make? Like, I don't know what
They don't, they don't have, they have no reason to be in the wine business. What,
what artist would say that?
Yeah. Yeah.
What artist would say, "I wanna write a, a," A
book- Yes ... that gets a good review.
I wanna ... Exactly. I, you ... Uh, great art comes from a place where you have something burning inside of you that you can't get out.
Right.
Like, I, I'm unemployable now, right? I truly am, because I don't know how to get a job where I would be farming, and I'm making something I'm proud of, sharing it with people, uh, creating community, uh, you know, uh, getting invited to people's weddings. And then, you know- Yeah ... to the ex- certain extent, I think one of the things that you and I share is we get to write the songs- Yeah
that people dance to. Yeah. You know what I mean?
That's a really good, that's a, that's a really good analogy to it. That's, I like that. But, um, you're unemployable also because you're never going to leave what you're doing and, and, and, and- As much as I wish ... either, either am I.
Yeah.
And, uh, you know, Richard Sanford, who's one of my idols- Yes, yes
and, and comes to my tasting room in Santa Barbara quite a bit- Yep ... uh, because he's Richard Sanford, and I make a lot of f- wines from his fruit, and he gets to taste for free- Yeah ... and blah, blah, blah. And so I, I, like, grabbed his- He's in the
mob ...
I grabbed his hands- He's a mob man ... and I'm like, "Richard, when are you gonna retire?"
He goes, "Oh, no, no, Doug, we don't retire. We just die."
Yes.
I go, "Fuck." I'm so involved. Let me just say that again. I'm like, "Oh, you might
die." We're gonna bleep it. Don't worry. But Louis Lucas, right? Yeah. When he came in here, um, the conversation with him was, was, was fascinating, just because there's someone who, when he first moved here, there were 80 total acres-
Yeah
of grapes.
Yeah.
And to see someone with that staying power, right? It, it ... I use the, uh, the term So God Made a Farmer. It's a great poem. It was, you know, uh, Paul Harvey read it on the radio to F- F- A- A- Future Farmers of America. And that, that poem's made me cry many times- Mm ... because you, you can become a lawyer, you can become, um- A politician.
You can become an accountant, right? But to a certain extent, God makes you a farmer.
Yeah.
And when you become a farmer, there, that's pretty much it. You're locked in.
Yeah.
Um, the fact that we get to give our fruit immortality in a bottle of wine is, is probably one of the greatest, you know, uh, adventures in farming that there possibly is- Yeah
because we're not growing a commodity. We're growing something that has to be made- Yeah ... and it comes from a place. And just like when you go back to France in your mind and drink that, or that lady who drank that bottle of wine sitting on that, underneath the nets- ... right? She's transported back to a place, and that could be the best bottle of wine she's ever drank in her life.
It, it could well be. Uh- And
it's fantastic.
Yeah. It's interesting, though. I actually am not a farmer. I, um, came from it from the other side. Yeah. I had the opportunity for, uh, you know, 27 years to run a restaurant that had one of the greatest wine lists in the world.
Fantastic.
And I got to travel and taste wines all over the world.
And when I, when I did make a conscious decision to not be in the restaurant business anymore because- Yeah ... it's really hard.
Yeah.
And I, I-
Being in the restaurant business is, is being a farmer. It,
it, it, it's - It's, it's very similar ... it's a different thing, but it, it's, uh ... And I, I essentially had to make a decision as to if I was gonna keep doing the restaurant- Yeah
or if I was gonna start making wine, and I consciously decided to, to make, make wine. And, uh, but I came, I came to it from not the farming side. Yeah. I came to it from the ... You know, I knew exactly what I wanted to make- Mm-hmm ... and I knew exactly how I wanted it to taste like. Mm-hmm. And so I, I had that going for me.
But that's, that's just like being a chef. Yeah. You know, if you can source the right ingredients from the right person who's, who's raising the right beef and r- and c- and, and bringing in the right fish and produce and everything- Sh- ... very similar.
You're, you're, you're talking my talk. Yeah. It's, I use the chef analogy all the time- Mm
is I'm more of a chef than I am a f- a farmer- Yeah ... 'cause I, I do-
But we have a
lot in common ... I take the best ingredients and ... Yeah. And I, I mean, obviously I, I, I, we have vineyards and we oversee them- Yes ... but I, I, you know, I, my fingernails are too clean to, to really, to really be a, a farmer.
I totally understand.
So y- you have an event coming up that- Yes ... we wanna talk about.
Yes. Uh, you know, we're, the Santa Barbara Vintners Association has a, um, a- offshoot called the Santa Barbara Vintners Foundation
A very important offshoot
Which is very important because the Vintners' Association is clearly to promote, uh, the, the, the wellbeing of our- Come
visit us
Yeah.
Mainly now- Yes ... it's come visit us, but also to g- uh, there's a, there's an aspect of it that, uh, is to have people, uh, understand and know about Santa Barbara County wines. Absolutely. To promote the wines. Yeah. And so it's, it's... And so we thought, uh, years and years ago, uh, that we needed to do something to, for our community.
And, uh, we started the Vintners', uh, Foundation. Mm-hmm. Uh, ooh, I'm trying to think what year that was. Initially, we did it in conjunction with Direct Relief. Mm-hmm. And that's how it all started. But we've now have expanded our, uh, our, our giving. We, uh, we work a lot with the CHC, which is Community Health Centers, which are fantastic.
They're these mobile- Yes ... uh, trucks that go out into underserved communities where people can, for free, get a, a diabetes test, get their blood pressure taken, get their teeth checked- Yeah ... get their eyes checked. It's just, it's, it's serving- For free ... an underserved... For free. And a lot of it, quite frankly, are the people who work in the vineyards and the orchards and the strawberry fields and stuff that- Yep
that are all here in, uh, in Santa Barbara County. So we, we, we raise money, and the re- raise money by doing different events. So we have a s- a wine auction every other year, and we're having this really wonderful night, uh, coming up here on June 19th at Mattie's Tavern- Mm ... 'cause we wanted to do something with, right here in our own community.
And it's a, uh, it's a, a summer soiree. Basically, wh- what it is, it's a, a, a dinner. You can buy tickets for it. You can just go to the... If you type Santa Barbara Vintners or Santa Barbara Vintners Foundation or Summer Soiree into the website, uh, you can, you can come and, um, and join us, and there's gonna be some great wines.
There's gonna be a little auction. I just did my auction package right before I came here. It's gonna be a- Great ... a winemaker day. You can come in the morning and go out and pick grapes. Awesome. And you're gonna come back to the winery and test them, and then you're gonna go up to the top of the vineyard and have some, which we do all the time, we're gonna have some champagne and- Mm
and some, uh, little breakfast. We never do that- Oh ... but we're gonna do it if someone buys this auction package. And, um, uh, you know, Mattie's does a great job. They're, they're really s- really supportive, uh- They
are fantastic.
Yeah. And it's been a wonderful addition to our community, and-
Totally agree ...
those Wine Wednesday things are just fantastic.
Mm. And, you know, uh, uh, you, you walk into that place and it looks exactly like it looked when I visited it when I was a kid.
The Valley's living room.
Yeah. It's really, really good. And so if you are, if people are interested in coming, please go to our website. Uh, it's, uh, Friday night, June 19th at Mattie's Tavern.
And, uh, it benefits, uh, not only CHC, but people helping people- Yep ... and a, a variety of, uh, of, of very wonderful, uh, uh, nonprofits in our community.
You know, you brought up the Santa Barbara Vintners Association and the, uh, the charitable aspects of it. And one of the things I would love to say about the Santa Barbara Vintners Association that I'm very proud of is, um, one of the things in, in our community, um, the Santa- the wine industry, uh, represents about $1.2 billion of economic impact.
And one of the things I am very proud of with the Santa Barbara Vintners Association, number one, it's everybody who's on the board is a, uh, is donating their time. Um, but in this world today, Santa Barbara County, um, is the most restrictive, um, wine region in the world.
Yeah.
And- It's tough to enter ... it's, it's really difficult.
And we are in a beautiful place that is very difficult to grow grapes. Um, y- the weather is perfect for growing grapes. Um, it is very difficult to make wine, even though it is a wonderful place to make wine because l- there are incredible amounts of rules and regulations, a lot of not, not in my backyard.
Um, so when you drive around and you see all of these vineyards, remember that they are, number one, not landscaping. These are feeding families. They are, uh... The wines that are made go, in, in our Santa Barbara County, rarely go into private plane fuel. They really go into supporting, uh, the local community, and kids, and T-ball teams, and water polo teams, and everybody who's working at those restaurants that are, um, are collecting tips.
Right.
Um, we are very, very fortunate to be in such a beautiful place that can grow such the world-class product. I mean, the, the way I would say it with you sitting across from me, and please accept these flowers, is you can be anywhere in the world. You can be making wine in any wine region in the world.
You could be anywhere else but here. But the fact that you are here in this area and you have tasted wines from all over the world, and yet this is where you choose to call home, is a huge feather-
Yeah ...
in the cap of Santa Barbara County. And I am so proud of the work that the Santa Barbara Vintners Association does, but quietly They are also with this charitable aspect are really taking care of so many people, and it is truly beautiful to see an industry where in any other industry people take more than they, um, take more than they give.
Yeah. And I think in the Santa Barbara wine community, I
have- It's amazing the, the, the generosity and the, the amount of work that people do on, on, to help our community here in through, through the Vintners Association and just individually, and the economic impact is just staggering. I went to UCSB. I got a degree in economics.
One of my, uh, teacher's aides now is, helps run the, uh, UCSB economic forecast. Mm-hmm. And every year he's rates the crops, uh, I think s- strawberries is one. Yep. Broccoli is two, and one grapes are three. Yep. And I point out to him, one, you're a bad economist- ... because strawberries sometimes get made into jam, but they mostly just get eaten.
Correct.
Th- the broccoli, it doesn't get marked up four or five times as it goes through from being broccoli. It's just broccoli. Yes. It goes from broccoli to being eaten as broccoli, where wine grapes get turned into wine- Mm-hmm ... or sold by wineries, sold to retailers and so- and, and there's additional tax revenue there.
Mm-hmm. Sold to restaurants. Mm-hmm. And there's no broccoli tasting rooms in- Correct ... in Santa Barbara County. There are tons of, of wine tasting rooms where people are educated about wine. And so it has such an outsized impact on our, on our, on our county that isn't quite recognized, and you, the number you said I think is, is correct, is 1.8 billion, but they just look at it as a, as a crop and, and value it at that, where the multiple is so much, much more than that.
I just wanna say thank you for giving up some of your time and coming in. I feel like I made a friend.
Yeah. I hope
so. Um, I hope you come back. Well,
now we're gonna see each other all the time.
That's true. Um, everybody, you have been listening to a, a real asset to the Santa Barbara County community with Doug Margerum.
Um, he is an advocate for our area. Um, he is a wealth of knowledge. He, like I said, he could be anywhere else in the world, and today he's here with us. I just wanna say thank you for coming in and chopping it up. Well. And, uh, I hope I get to see you again soon.
Good. I thank you very much.
So everybody, this has been Chopping It Up on 105.9 KZXY Country.
I've been Keith Sarloos. Back to your regularly scheduled programming.
Episode 49 : LOON | THE MOST INTERESTING MAN IN THE WORLD
Loon: Scotland, Cartoons, Queen Elizabeth, and the Art of Living
In this episode of Chopping It Up, Keith Saarloos sits down with his friend Loon, the Scottish artist, cartoonist, illustrator, storyteller, and one of the most interesting people to ever pull up a chair in the Santa Ynez Valley. Known for his sharp humor, beautiful illustrations, and deeply human view of the world, Loon shares the story behind his name, his upbringing in Scotland, his family history, his adventures around the world, and the life experiences that shaped his art.
Keith and Loon talk about growing up in a 52-room Scottish estate, riding bicycles through hallways, family tragedy, aristocracy, boarding school, the army, humor, adventure, and the importance of never losing wonder. The conversation moves from Scotland to Australia, London, California, the Santa Ynez Valley, Rancheros Visitadores, royal commissions, Queen Elizabeth, Princess Diana, and the simple power of sitting around a campfire with real people.
More than a conversation about art, this episode is about living a rich life. Loon reflects on humor, grief, friendship, creativity, marriage, travel, patriotism, technology, AI, and the value of human connection. His story is a reminder that art is not only something you make. It is a way of seeing the world, surviving the hard parts, laughing at the absurd, and turning a lifetime of experience into something worth sharing.
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In this episode of Chopping It Up, Keith Saarloos sits down with his friend Loon, the Scottish artist, cartoonist, illustrator, storyteller, and one of the most interesting people to ever pull up a chair in the Santa Ynez Valley. Known for his sharp humor, beautiful illustrations, and deeply human view of the world, Loon shares the story behind his name, his upbringing in Scotland, his family history, his adventures around the world, and the life experiences that shaped his art.
Keith and Loon talk about growing up in a 52-room Scottish estate, riding bicycles through hallways, family tragedy, aristocracy, boarding school, the army, humor, adventure, and the importance of never losing wonder. The conversation moves from Scotland to Australia, London, California, the Santa Ynez Valley, Rancheros Visitadores, royal commissions, Queen Elizabeth, Princess Diana, and the simple power of sitting around a campfire with real people.
More than a conversation about art, this episode is about living a rich life. Loon reflects on humor, grief, friendship, creativity, marriage, travel, patriotism, technology, AI, and the value of human connection. His story is a reminder that art is not only something you make. It is a way of seeing the world, surviving the hard parts, laughing at the absurd, and turning a lifetime of experience into something worth sharing.
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• Who is Loon, the Scottish artist and cartoonist
• The meaning behind the name “Loon”
• Growing up in Scotland and England
• Family history, aristocracy, and the Duke of Hamilton connection
• Childhood in a 52-room Scottish estate
• Humor, adventure, and the influence of Loon’s father
• The loss of his sister Iona and keeping loved ones alive through memory
• Boarding school, Gordonstoun, and Timbertop in Australia
• How Loon’s mother encouraged his art
• Why criticism can damage young artists
• Life in the Scots Guards and guarding Buckingham Palace
• Practical jokes, military humor, and the changing of the guard
• Becoming a professional artist and illustrator
• The difference between being a humorist and being an artist
• Traveling the world with his wife Fiona
• Living in the Santa Ynez Valley
• Rancheros Visitadores and the value of campfire friendship
• Illustrating books and working with Brooks Firestone
• Royal commissions for Queen Elizabeth, Princess Anne, and Princess Diana
• Art, AI, technology, and the future of human creativity
• Why real art, real friendships, and real experiences still matter
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Who is Loon?
Loon is the artistic name of Alistair Malcolm Douglas McLeod Hillary, a Scottish artist, cartoonist, illustrator, and storyteller known for humorous, deeply human artwork.What does the name Loon mean?
“Loon” is a Scottish colloquial word for a young boy, especially from the northeast of Scotland. It has been his nickname since childhood.What is Loon known for?
Loon is known for illustrations and cartoons that combine beautiful artwork with humor, observation, and a sharp but generous view of human nature.Where is Loon from?
Loon was born in London and raised in Scotland, with family roots tied deeply to Scottish history and culture.What is this episode of Chopping It Up about?
This episode covers Loon’s life, art, family history, childhood in Scotland, time in the army, world travels, royal commissions, and connection to the Santa Ynez Valley.Did Loon create artwork for the royal family?
Yes. In the episode, Loon discusses artwork connected to Queen Elizabeth, Princess Anne, Princess Diana, and royal ceremonial traditions in Scotland.How is Loon connected to the Santa Ynez Valley?
Loon first came to the Santa Ynez Valley through his late wife Fiona and has returned regularly for Rancheros Visitadores, friendships, art, and the community.What does Loon say about art and humor?
Loon describes humor and art as working hand in hand. His goal is to amuse people, make them laugh, and create something visually beautiful at the same time.What does this episode say about AI and creativity?
Keith and Loon discuss the rise of AI, the danger of losing human connection, and why real art made by real people will become even more valuable.Why should people listen to this episode?
This episode is for anyone interested in art, storytelling, Scotland, the Santa Ynez Valley, humor, adventure, friendship, and what it means to live a life full of experience.
Did Loon know members of the British Royal Family?Yes. During his career as an artist and illustrator, Loon created artwork connected to Queen Elizabeth II, Princess Diana, Princess Anne, and other members of the British Royal Family.
Did Loon serve in the military?
Yes. Loon served as an officer in the Scots Guards, including ceremonial duties at Buckingham Palace and royal events throughout the United Kingdom.
What is Rancheros Visitadores?
Rancheros Visitadores is a historic horseback riding tradition in Santa Barbara County and the Santa Ynez Valley that Loon participates in every year.
Where can I see Loon's artwork?
Loon's artwork appears in books, private collections, galleries, royal collections, and exhibitions around the world.
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:00 Speaker 1 Hey everybody, it's 10 AM on a Saturday morning and you are listening to Chopping It Up on 105.9 Crazy Country. And today's episode is a very spectacular episode. I have a great friend of mine in, and I'm just going to start off with this. There are people who make art and then there are people who quietly dictate their lives to observing humanity and pointing out the absurd. 0:22 And then they point, they poke at it with a paintbrush today. Today's guest is my friend, simply known as Loon. Loon is not just a national treasure, he is an international treasure. And if you had asked me as a kid what I hoped adulthood would look like without becoming cynical, without losing wonder and without losing humor, it looks a lot like him. 0:47 His art, his cartoons, his illustrations point at men with too much confidence and not enough talent, Dogs that somehow seem smarter than the humans involved. And somehow, his work never feels cruel. It feels identifiable. It's timeless and beautiful, like a matte painting from a Disney film or fine art masquerading as an illustration. 1:08 His art feels like Norman Rockwell crossed with The Far Side. Because Loon's work does not just make people laugh, it makes people feel seen. And maybe that's why people all over the world connect to his work. He will doodle a friend while he's giving a speech with chaotic precision or illustrate a book about animals. 1:27 His art may may even end up on the Queen's bedside table. He is what I wanted to be when I grew up. More than that, he's a good man. Ladies and gentlemen, my friend Loon, welcome to the show. 1:39 Speaker 2 Loon well, good morning. And this is an honor indeed. 1:43 Speaker 1 This is great. So let's just start with the the very easy one loon. Where did this come from? How? How did you have a nom de plume where you usually when you find out about your work and I know right now we're talking on the radio and you are a visual present presentation. 2:03 Charles Schulz, Bill Watterson from from the Calvin and Hobbes, Gary Larson from the far side a humorist, right? You feel like we're not Norman Rockwell really collides with humor. So where did this start? 2:19 Where did it begin? Where did the name come from? There's a lot of questions to begin with that. Sorry about that. 2:25 Speaker 2 Keith, you're using a lot of big words here, a bit of a lot of big names that I am deeply flattered that I might even be in the same context as people like like Rockwell Loon. 2:41 My nom de plume is a You may not know it may not recognise my accent as being Scottish. 2:49 Speaker 1 You're not from here. 2:51 Speaker 2 No, I live, I live in Scotland and born in London but bred in Scotland and but my accent is, as probably every listener will guess, is the what we refer to as the Queen's English or the King's English or even ox Oxbridge. 3:14 So Loon is a Scottish colloquialism for a young boy. It comes from the North East of Scotland where I live, and I've had that nickname since I was five years old. 3:29 Really. Yeah. I was brought up with another Alistair. Alistair is my. 3:35 Speaker 1 Maybe, maybe we should say that. What is your full name? 3:38 Speaker 2 My proper name is Alistair Malcolm Douglas McLeod Hillary. 3:44 Speaker 1 I could see why Loon became the bit easier, much easier. 3:50 Speaker 2 It's amazing. So I was my parents were pretty powerful people in their own right. My father's better was a great entrepreneur and and his sort of tenets of life was a laughter should be ever present and whatever you're doing should be fun. 4:14 He, as an entrepreneur, had a shot at all sorts of things, failed at most, but all but never lost his drive to, to, to have a go at things. Right. My mother was a double Olympian at skiing. 4:33 And so we were all brought up doing that like mad. And she was also an artist. She sang. She was the most wonderful person. She lived to 90. My father lived to 95 and I'm one of four, but sadly one of us was lost. 4:56 When I was 17 years old. My youngest sister was killed in a car crash which my father was driving and that was the most horrendous time to have to deal with in the family. But it's good to talk about it. 5:12 She was called Iona and a lovely person. 5:15 Speaker 1 It's it's a beautiful, beautiful way to keep people alive by saying their name and remembering them. I think about my father all the time and bring him up in conversation. It feels like he's in the next room. 5:25 Speaker 2 Yes, yes, well, I remember him too. 5:28 Speaker 1 He's a good guy. 5:29 Speaker 2 Yeah. 5:30 Speaker 1 I'm very lucky. 5:31 Speaker 2 Yeah. 5:31 Speaker 1 So you were raised in Scotland of somewhat nobility, is that correct? 5:40 Speaker 2 I suppose that there are connections. 5:44 Speaker 1 I'm sorry to. 5:44 Speaker 2 Do this to you. 5:45 Speaker 1 But I wanted to know. 5:48 Speaker 2 If I was, I don't have a title or anything like that, but my great grandfather was the Duke of Hamilton, the senior dukedom in Scotland. And indeed, rather interestingly was the man that Rudolf Hess flew to go and visit when he was in 1942, I think it was. 6:14 And it was an abortive trip which finished. He finished up being imprisoned and remained in prison until I think it was 1980 when he finally died in Spandau Prison in Berlin. 6:29 But he was trying to get through my great grand grandfather into the aristocracy because he believes that that might be a way into the British government, that he could negotiate an end to the war or a capitulation for Britain, really. 6:48 And we still have. I mean, the family has his map and flying goggles and some of the memorabilia which he crashed in a field in Scotland having run out of fuel. 7:03 So that's that's an interesting part, see. 7:07 Speaker 1 That's why I wanted to have you on today is because I, I feel like my best story that I have loaded in the gun ready to tell a joke or tell a story. Your worst story is probably better than my, my best story. I mean. 7:19 Speaker 2 God, you don't want to hear my worst story. I don't. 7:23 Speaker 1 So what was it like growing up in in Scotland? 7:27 Speaker 2 Yes, yes, we, we are. I started my life in fact in Sussex, down in England when my father worked in Lloyds of London. And one morning when I was five years old and my sister was 7 and my younger brother was about 1, he said stuff this. 7:49 I'm not going to bring my children up in England. We're going to Scotland and we're going to the Isle of Skye, which is where his side of the of our family come from and my mother said yes for Scotland but no to Sky. 8:04 Speaker 1 Really. 8:05 Speaker 2 It's quite a remote part of the world and it can be a not the most hospitable of places, although it is beautiful. 8:14 Speaker 1 Bit nautical. 8:15 Speaker 2 A bit, a little bit, yes. The Atlantic doesn't stop when it comes into crashing into the shores and the mountains. And, and so the compromise was we rented a house from great friends Gordon Cummings and it was a 52 room house. 8:38 Speaker 1 You grew up in a castle. Is this what you're saying? 8:41 Speaker 2 Well, it was. It was not a castle. It was 2 rooms. It was a kind of. It was built in 1666 and. 8:50 Speaker 1 Only 100 years before our country was formed. 8:53 Speaker 2 That's amazing. Yeah, that was, that was quite a thought, that is. 8:58 Speaker 1 I, I think about it all the time. I, I mean, we, we're going to celebrate our 250th anniversary as a country, which I've told my children, our country is five meals old, right? That's it. It's not. And then when you bring that up, oh, it's built in the 1600s. 9:14 We, we don't even have an, we don't, we don't have anything in this country. That's 1600. I mean, other than previous to us becoming a country, It's it's shocking. 9:24 Speaker 2 Well, yes, but on the other hand, what I love about coming here is that you are actually still living your history. You know, if you look at all the cowboy culture, yes, it is, is happening. Yeah. 9:40 And I love to be a part of that. We don't have that, correct. We've got heaps and stuff getting back into the ancient path and we swathe ourselves and Totten and leap around like mad Highland figures, right? 9:56 Dancing or tossing cables or whatever takes your fancy, right? Right. But no, I think it's something you should be proud of is it's, it's, it's great, exciting, exciting place to be. 10:09 Speaker 1 I I love that. I love what you said. We are currently living history. That's that's a fan it, it's not something we're going back to. It's something that is still part of our culture. Yeah. So back to 52 rooms, Sorry. 10:21 Speaker 2 About that, as you might imagine, 52 rooms was a tiny bit on the big side for for a family of four children and my parents. And so we cut it in half and let out 1/2 to in flats. 10:37 We made flats out of those and we lived in the other half. 10:40 Speaker 1 Only 2025 rooms. 10:41 Speaker 2 Only 25 rooms to one of which was a ballroom and one was a theatre and so we but there was nothing valuable in the house. All the paintings and family should have been taken away so it allowed us to ride bicycles up and down the corridors. 11:06 Speaker 1 It's like The Shining, right? When they're staying in a hotel and they're just riding bikes throughout the hotel rooms. I mean, that's amazing. 11:13 Speaker 2 So we're also bringing our ponies into the dining room, which was always rough. 11:21 Speaker 1 So, OK, you're painting a very specific picture. You're you're up in Scotland, you're riding ponies through the the ballroom. 11:28 Speaker 2 Yeah. Well, yeah, yeah, we did. Actually. We didn't didn't take the ponies upstairs. The ballroom was upstairs. 11:35 Speaker 1 Of course. 11:35 Speaker 2 Not we had there were a few rules. 11:39 Speaker 1 This sounds wild. This is amazing. 11:41 Speaker 2 And the stairs were were big enough that we had a carpet going up and down that had stair rods holding the carpet in place. So if you pull down the stair rods, you could pull the carpet straight to form a toboggan run. 11:57 These sort of activities were all encouraged by by my parents and we had with very little money and my father had started a caravan site and that flourished, but it wasn't a big, big earner. 12:16 His other enterprise was buying salmon from all the coastal netting and the all the rivers. And Scottish salmon in those days was a highly prized product, particularly when it was smoked. 12:35 I mean, would sell for the same price as caviar does today. And in in the days, early days there, there was a restriction on how much money you were allowed to take out of the country. 12:51 If you went away on holiday of £50. You weren't allowed more than that per person. Really. Yeah. I'm talking sort of early 60s, yes. Yeah. So because of our great skiing background, Right, we went skiing for two weeks every year. 13:14 And my mother and father would organize the trip because for every 15 places that you booked, you get one free on the train, on the plane, on the hotel. And they're bonhomas for buying ski passes. 13:31 Ski that everything. Which meant that if we got enough people together, we could take over a whole hotel and that would pay for the family skiing holiday. Not only that, but we would have to smuggle smoked salmon in our suitcases. 13:49 So we tended to arrive at the beginning of our our skiing holidays smelling rather fishy. And the smoked salmon was then sold to local hotels and filled our little piggy banks and pockets with a bit more money to spend. 14:07 Speaker 1 It sounds like your youth was filled with a lot of joy to a certain extent. I mean, you're staying in a let's just say, you know, 50 room home and and and making do and figuring it out and not scheming. 14:24 I don't know if that's a negative term, but a little bit of entrepreneurial spirit, I guess, or can do attitude. But you know, the fact that your father go back to the very beginning when you just were discussing him, how a little bit of humor, I think as you said it, in everything that you do, it seems like he was, you know, there to have a good time and, you know, pulling out the rods and and riding bicycles and indoors and things like that. 14:51 It sounds like a exciting trove of memories of a youth. 14:56 Speaker 2 Oh hugely so, yeah. And we gave a ball every year in the ballroom. But the deal was that all the children had to put performances on. So we did little skits and plays which were all great fun, incredibly amateur and generally it produced a lot of laughter. 15:20 My father who was, who was pretty rotund, which is a bit of a family failing I think. But he was tough. He was a strong man and as I said, I think he, well, he spent 16 years with the Special Forces after the war. 15:41 He very much loved the ethos of the Special Air Service, which basically was paying somebody to be a naughty boy behind enemy lines and cause chaos. 15:55 Speaker 1 So you're saying your father was also a spy? 15:58 Speaker 2 Well, he wasn't a spy as such, but he, he, he was instrumental in keeping the SAS alive. He was, it was territorial that he did, which meant that it's it's not full time, it is part time. 16:14 Got it. Nonetheless, the the regular, the full time SAS had struggled to find a role after the war and he basically kept it going and started as AD squadron standing for Dundee in the South of Scotland, which in those days was part of the territorial lot. 16:36 It's now become the main squadron in the regular SAS. Really. Yeah. 16:42 Speaker 1 Does that have any correlation? Forgive my ignorance to Scotland Yard. 16:47 Speaker 2 No, that's that's Scotland Yard is is part of the London Metropolitan Police. 16:53 Speaker 1 So that would more or less similarly be FBI versus like say FBI is internal, CIA is external, SAS would be external, Scotland Yard would be internal. 17:05 Speaker 2 Yes, I suppose you could say that the SAS would equate to your seals. Got it. So but not nautical. 17:16 Speaker 1 Yeah, sure. 17:18 Speaker 2 It was started by David Sterling who was a great heroic figure during the war and operated behind enemy lines playing up ammunition dumps and oil dumps and was was a great figure who was well known to us as a family. 17:36 Speaker 1 Really. 17:38 Speaker 2 And so. 17:39 Speaker 1 There's one other person and I may, maybe I'm making a big jump here, but there was a, an actor who was SAS that was in Lord of the Rings. Sir, I'm going to blow it here and might have to cut this out. But he, he knew Tolkien. 17:57 He was part of the SAS. And the only reason I know this is a friend of mine is a huge Lord of the Rings fan. And, and they were doing a scene where he was knifing someone or he was being stabbed. And when he was stabbed, he goes. But I want you to go and scream loudly and he goes, that's not a way that a man sounds when he's being stabbed in the back. 18:18 And he says, how do you know that? And he goes previous history. And I went, holy cow, this is fantastic. OK, so father is SAS entrepreneur, huge exciting upbringing. 18:34 Let's get into your life. So from there, where did you go? 18:40 Speaker 2 I I went to Gordonston, well firstly I was educated at a prep schools and I was sent away at the age of of eight down to Yorkshire. 18:55 Speaker 1 Eight years old. 18:56 Speaker 2 Yes, it was a little premature because I was expelled from my kindergarten. 19:03 Speaker 1 This is the interview of the most interesting man in the world. OK, continue, continue. This is great. 19:09 Speaker 2 Well, I don't think I can quite tell you what it was about. 19:12 Speaker 1 Quite all right. Statue of limitations. 19:15 Speaker 2 One of those things that young boys get up to. 19:18 Speaker 1 Fair enough. 19:19 Speaker 2 So off I went aged 8, down to Yorkshire and my father wanted me to go as he had done to Eaton, and it soon became evident at Ace Garth that I probably wasn't eating material and it was recommended that I went on the outward bound angle and way of education. 19:44 And so Gordon Stan provided that very much. There was a lot of sailing, you know, getting up early and going for runs and exercise. Healthy body, healthy mind and everything. And I thrived there. 20:00 It was great. 20:00 Speaker 1 It sounds like you would have, yes. Skiing and tobogganing down the stairs and riding bikes, Yeah, it makes sense. 20:07 Speaker 2 And so an opportunity arose when I was 14 to to go to Timber Top in Australia as an exchange student over 2 terms. So aged 14, I, I was, I went around the world by myself for nine months really. 20:29 And it's, it's amazing to think of modern technology and and communication now you know, the prospect of being out of contact with your family. 20:40 Speaker 1 Totally out of contact? Totally, yeah. How long would it take for a letter to get from Australia back to Scotland? A. 20:46 Speaker 2 Week or two, I think I had three phone calls during those nine months. Wow. And but my mother was always very inventive. She used to send me a tape recording of noises from home. 21:04 So these things I had to play in front of my fellow students in Australia thought it was quite funny because they were things like the the budgerigar perp tweeting, the bull terrier barking and, and she would then talk and tell stories on this tape or even my father snoring in front of the television. 21:29 And these noises from home were, were lovely. They made you feel good. 21:34 Speaker 1 Fantastic. So to get to get one of those tapes, it was kind of like, you know, listening. Yeah, you're like you're described. It would be popping it in. I'm sure you'd close, you know, hit play and lean back and close your eyes and all of a sudden you were home. And it's like almost someone reading you a bedtime story from home and little bits and pieces of things that you grew up listening to and here you were, like a warm blanket. 22:00 Speaker 2 It was beautiful. Australia was was a fantastic place to go in those days, full of opportunity and you know if anybody rolled their sleeves up and want to have a go at something, there were opportunities galore there. So it felt I had to behave really well in order to get chosen to go. 22:20 But once I got there, I let go. 22:25 Speaker 1 The real loon came out. That would be. 22:28 Speaker 2 That would be true to say because we always used to refer to the convicts as being deported to Australia, but I was the one who nearly got deported back again. 22:44 But all fantastic fun and adventure. That is the other thing my father advocated, you know. So he was thrilled that I'd been chosen to do this and what an experience. And I was by far and away the best thing I did up until the age of 18 and got back eventually. 23:09 And at the next sort of wave of exams, I failed pretty well every single one. And however, art had been a golden thread through all of this. 23:29 It was, I suppose, the age of five, my my mother started to really encourage me and she never criticized. And I believe that there are plenty of people with plenty of talent who perhaps have been diverted because they've somehow been made to think that they're not good at it or they can't do it or they can't do it as well as they want to or the as well as the next door person. 23:58 But with kind and gentle nurturing from every single person involved in the teaching of art or nurturing of art throughout education. It's really important not to not to treat this very delicate thing a bit aggressively and, and knock it back. 24:19 I was lucky right through my mother was brilliant. I had very good art teacher at Gordon Stone and he looked after me probably because he was an incredible snob and he loved anybody who had any friends who might have a title. 24:38 So we had a few friends locally who people like the The Thane of Corda, which is quite a good title from Macbeth. 24:50 Speaker 1 He was the theme of Corda. 24:52 Speaker 2 Thane of He's otherwise known as Earl Corda, and Corda Castle is right next to where we live, and we were all good friends with them. I mean, that place is steeped in history. And yeah, there was, you know, there's AI suppose I've always had a lot of friends with a lot of very interesting places, houses full of beautiful things and. 25:20 Yeah. 25:22 Speaker 1 Just to put a pin in that, just a second, because this is definitely going to be two episodes, so this is going to be the first half. I'm just letting everybody know, but I think a great place to finish this episode, to begin the next part of art would be I. I find it very interesting just listening to this conversation where you're talking about being around people with titles or being around AI. 25:44 Guess is would the word be aristocracy? 25:46 Speaker 2 Yeah. 25:47 Speaker 1 Right, aristocracy, but you are experiencing a totally different life by travel, art, humor, excitement, entrepreneurship with your family, your father festering or, or or, you know, keeping the, the fire lit, if you will, of humor and enjoyment and really, really, you know, sucking the marrow out of the bone as like you should go out and experience everything where you set a fostering of adventure. 26:16 And even if you're an aristocracy, you might have things to live up to or a name to live up to or a title to live up to, which is its own sense sensibly a prison that you have to act accordingly. Go to the right school and be the right kid. 26:32 Maybe you know, work, work and study where you're learning about things so that when you do receive your title, if you will, you're living up to it in a way that hundreds of years of tradition have forced upon you, rather than you becoming the person you maybe should have been meant to be. 26:54 Is that a good way to describe that? 26:55 Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah, there are definitely. I've got plenty of friends who've been born into a position that they can't get out of. You know, particularly one is Hugh McLeod of McLeod. He's the chief of the clan, McLeod the 38th. 27:14 And you kind of don't really want to be the one who throws it all into touch, but he can't. There are trusts and there are all sorts of historical things that that he he is is bound by and he can't get away from it. 27:29 Speaker 1 Yeah, what an incredible weight to be thrust upon you. You know, the only my only view into that world are like things like watching The Crown or, you know, anything. You know, some of those stories where it's like, oh, I want to be this, but you were Born This Way. 27:46 I mean, we live in solving The Little Mermaid is an example of that kind of story where no, I want to be this and I want to be an artist and I want to no, no, no, you need to act accordingly. You need to be this. You need to do that because you have something to live up to and you don't want to be the one domino like you're saying in a chain to be the OR the wink link, if you will be the one that like, oh, this has been going on for hundreds of years and I was the one who caused it to fail. 28:12 Yeah. Yeah. What an incredible burden. 28:14 Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah. I mean, I could tell you lots of stories, people with titles and you know who've. 28:21 Speaker 1 But what? What an exciting life, being able to dip your toe into that while still remaining free. 28:28 Speaker 2 Absolutely. And I suppose I don't appreciate it sometimes because it's, I think, you know, talking about richness. I haven't got much money, but I'm probably as rich as anybody with experience. 28:44 Speaker 1 Absolutely. 28:45 Speaker 2 And, and the, the lifestyle that I've been lucky enough to have has given me, you know, a Bank of memories and experiences that I love to share with people. And, and it's it now that I've got a 72 years old, you know, I can pontificate and chew the cud with the people and sit around the campfire and lap it up. 29:11 Speaker 1 Well, a good, I think a good place to end this episode would be that thought process of, you know, I, I know people that have a few commas in their bank account, right? And as they've gotten older in life, they realized that they'd won that game, but maybe have lost the other one. And now spending any more enormous amount of time and energy and expense to go out and have all of these experiences. 29:34 And I'm lucky enough to be able to go out to lunch with a few people. And I say, what if you were me at my age? What would you do? I ask that question constantly. And they go, go out and have more experiences. Go out and do the things. Go, go try things and maybe fail versus put more commas, put more zeros behind, behind your name. 29:56 And the best way I've ever heard it said was do you love where you live? And I said yes. And they said, do you love your wife? I said, absolutely. Does she love you? Yes. You have a good relationship with your children. Yes, and I was just kind of answering the question. Yes, yes, Yep, Yep. He goes, well, what more do you want? 30:13 And I said, well, a few more zeros would be nice. He goes, you wouldn't trade, Would you trade any of that for more zeros? And I said absolutely not. And he goes, well then you're doing the right thing. I wouldn't change a thing. So right now you're listening to Chopping It up. We're going to chop this up into two episodes and we are sitting here with the most interesting man in the world, Loon, a good friend. 30:32 This is the end of episode 1 and we will be back next week with episode 2. Everybody, it's 10 AM on a Saturday morning and you were listening to Chopping it Up on 105.9 Crazy Country with Keith Sarlos. And this is episode 2 of our very special guest, The Most Interesting Man in the World Loon, a artist, a man who grew up dipping his toe in the aristocracy, but also keeping enjoyment and venture fun and art very much alive. 31:01 So if you missed the episode 1, it is on. If you search on any podcast for chopping it up, Keith Saarlos SAARLOOS, it will be right there waiting for you. But this is episode 2. So where we just left off. Whereas your family was talking about art and excitement, we had a little bit of conversation about aristocracy and but also being the person you're supposed to be versus having the weight of of expectation pushed upon you. 31:31 Was that a good place? 31:32 Speaker 2 Yes. 31:33 Speaker 1 There we go. 31:34 Speaker 2 Let's begin. Well, I if I dare. My father wrote his autobiography before he died, which was important to him. And he was, it took us 10 years to edit it because it was so full of stuff that you couldn't really say right. 31:57 And he was searching for a title for it and used the cry that his grandmother used to shout at him, which was whatever you're doing, don't. 32:08 Speaker 1 Fantastic. 32:09 Speaker 2 And it's been a good way of looking at life or looking at career moves for all of us lot. It makes you think outside the box thinking do I have to do this or whatever? 32:26 So, you know, do. 32:28 Speaker 1 You do you feel in that same thing, Do you feel that culturally Britain or versus the United States, right. Britain seems to have from from friends of mine who are British that the tallest sunflower syndrome where you don't want to grow too tall because everybody will take a whack at you. 32:47 And if you but in America or in the United States where it's like, no, you want to grow as tall as you can and be, you know, be a cowboy, right? Be out there entrepreneurs. Those are the people we Revere versus sometimes in Britain, it's like, no, this is your lot in life. This is what you're going to do. 33:03 This is what your father did. This is what you're going to do. Do you think that's characteristically true, America versus Britain? 33:11 Speaker 2 It makes because. 33:12 Speaker 1 You seem like you break the rule. 33:14 Speaker 2 That's that's the idea. We like breaking rules, you know, rules are made to be broken. But in saying that, you know, you do need to have a structure and A and a good solid template for working under. 33:30 And I was going to say something and I've forgotten what it was. Oh yes. Longfellow the poet wrote a rather wonderful poem called, well, Hiawatha, which I'm sure everybody knows. 33:48 But he, he wrote another rather good one about called Excelsior, which I can't recite, you know, word for word. But it's about the hubris of youth and how you strive for the very top and believe in every step you take as the youth climbs the mountain with Barry carrying the banner of Excelsior. 34:12 And he's offered places to rest on the way out, but he refuses it. He has to keep going. And he goes up and up and, you know, lovely ladies offer him a nice breast to lie on, get a bit of comfort. 34:28 And yet he refuses and keeps going. And eventually he arrives up in the glacier and he keeps going until he dies and they they find him with his banner still aiming for the top Excelsior. 34:45 And it's, that's always been a sort of aspiration, I suppose, when it comes to to art and painting and looking to achieve stuff. Before I began doing this professionally, which is when I left the army, I spent four years in the Scots Guards. 35:08 I went to see a guy who had a Gallery in London and said, how would you advocate I structure my career? And one of the things he said was what whatever you're doing, don't allow yourself to become satisfied by what you've produced because that will be the end. 35:26 So there are always avenues that if you call yourself an artist, you should never be afraid of going to look down. And I've tried to practice that. I found that some avenues have worked well for me. Humour is the the bit that clicks and I've tried doing serious things but it doesn't seem to work very well. 35:51 Speaker 1 I guess that's a great question. So in your art, and as you're listening to this, we're speaking with Loon, who is an international treasure, I think is a good way to put it. But your art has a certain feel to it when I, when I view it, right? 36:06 And you creating something you could, I always think that's one of the scariest places you can be because if you're creating any great art, number one, it can fail at any time. That's how I define art. If if you're doing something that can fail at any moment, you're right in the pocket of creating art. 36:22 One line too much or you're playing guitar and you miss a chord, you, you failed in the art, right? But you can start again. You can begin again. But the whole, the whole process is creating something beautiful from start to finish where you're happy with it by the end, right? 36:39 Do you consider your art to Are you a humorist first or an artist first? 36:47 Speaker 2 That's an interesting question. I, I think it, it, it has got to run hand in hand because humour, humour has always been my bedfellow and and so also has the desire to be able to create something, create something that is visually attractive. 37:10 Speaker 1 Incredibly difficult. 37:11 Speaker 2 So I, I tried to combine that and I suppose I do it by if I go and travel anywhere, I will paint scenery, landscapes that I can then use in cartoons later. So I've got a a huge backlog of sketchbooks full of ideas and sketchbooks full of some of the places I've been and done. 37:37 The The thing that brought me to the valley was my lovely late wife Fiona, somebody who I'd known since I was. 37:55 Speaker 1 Take your time. 38:01 Speaker 2 12 years old, she came here in her gap here as a friend of a friend of the Firestone family and she fell in love with the place and they all fell in love with her and she fell in love with them and it was a huge success. 38:25 So we got married a few years later in 1981. And I said to her, how about we take a year and go and travel around the world and I can doodle my doodles and she can help and do stuff amazing. 38:46 To which she replied, why not two years? 38:52 Speaker 1 Adventure. You married the right person. That's a partner. That's fantastic. 38:58 Speaker 2 That's a keeper. 39:00 Speaker 1 That is a keeper. 39:01 Speaker 2 So on our journey we we went to Spain, Sri Lanka, Thailand, Hong Kong, Nepal, Philippines, Australia, back to Hong Kong and then finally to California. 39:18 And we spent nine months in the valley here living on baseline 3142 baseline in a garage and where you would have parked your car, we have a double bed. 39:37 Speaker 1 You are an adventurer. Fantastic. 39:41 Speaker 2 Well, it was a very we had a very simple little bathroom and a very simple kitchen, but they were the happiest days of our lives. I rode with Rancheros visitor Doris for the first time and absolutely loved that. 40:02 And when that was done, we went. And actually went home, bought a house in London, we had had three beautiful children, 2 girls and a boy and they've been out here that we all came back in the Millennium. 40:22 And I did a book launch for a book that I produced in 25th. No, but it must be just before the Millennium. And we did a book launch here in Solvang in the bookshop. 40:37 Speaker 1 Yeah, book loft. Yeah, world famous. 40:39 Speaker 2 Yeah. Well, that was that was fantastic. And Brooks Firestone helped with that. Yeah. Subsequent to that, I've also illustrated several of his books. He's a He's a prolific writer, yes. 40:55 Speaker 1 Very much so. 40:57 Speaker 2 So. 40:59 Speaker 1 I got to be in one. I think that's actually how we met. 41:02 Speaker 2 Indeed, indeed, indeed. The Valley animals stories. 41:08 Speaker 1 Fantastic. 41:09 Speaker 2 And you, Keith, were chased by a bison. 41:13 Speaker 1 I was, That's absolutely true. And then one day, well, where I entered your story a little bit is I, I got to sit next to you when Brooks was giving a speech. And I, I am a prolific doodler. 41:30 To enter my story into this, when I was a child, I wanted to be a cartoonist. I love drawing. I would draw in all the margins because I can't spell very well and I don't take very good notes. But if I listen and I draw, usually I'll retain it. And I was sitting in there and I saw this nice gentleman sitting next to me with a beautiful accent when his friends started talking immediately open a book and a magnificent bee. 41:57 What I was doing while I was trying to proper right. And here you were and giving the green light, if you will, to a younger guy saying, oh, just whip open your book and start start doodling. And it's perfectly OK. 42:13 And just for me, to you throwing flowers in your direction as you, as you catch a breath. I think Brooks Firestone's always been a example to me. And I think a lot of people in this valley, you are definitely along those same lines. 42:30 And I can see why you 2 are such good friends because in America, I may maybe that's not the right way to say it, but you know, to be tough, to be ready at all times, hardened. 42:47 Maybe that's something I grew up with, you know, that's you got to work hard, you got to be hard, you got to be ready to make tough decisions at all times. And when I saw Brooks and met him and met you and, and quite a few other people, honestly, in the Valley, romanticism is not a negative trait. 43:09 Being in love with your wife, as you've experienced, as you've stated, is a virtue. Being hopeless, really being a hopeless romantic and writing, which I try to do a a fair bit of why do I have a radio show? 43:27 Same thing. Those are those are great virtues to have because the world needs more people that tell people that their art is beautiful and that they're out there trying to do things. And I've always really admired that about Brooks and yourself. 43:44 And I can see why you guys are fast friends because you know who writes a book about animals in the valley? Brooks Firestone. And if he can do that, man, maybe I should do something like that. You know it. It is truly a beautiful. You're planting trees that you're you might not know that you're sitting under the shade of, but having met you and Brooks and things like that, I think you've made a lot of young men or younger men try to do things that they really wish they would and take a swing at. 44:15 So I wanted to say thank you for that. 44:17 Speaker 2 Well, Keith, I was told when I was trying to decide what to do after I left school by an old Colonel who had rather a pretty daughter. I was crazy. 44:34 He he was running an art gallery in his in his retirement. And I said to him after dinner, what would you do with your life if you were me? And he said you, I have always got a talent and you can pick that up at any time and use it. 44:51 So if I were you, I'd join the Army. And so that's exactly what I did. And I had been lined up to go to up Bath College of Art, grow my hair down to my backside, put beans around my leg and smoke dope, create ridiculous things, probably finish up designing Lube papers. 45:13 Right, Right. And instead I was marching around the square at Par Bright, being shouted at by Sergeant majors and wonderful people. And there, of course, in the Army you have a whole plethora of wonderful humour. 45:30 Yes. 45:31 Speaker 1 Yes. 45:33 Speaker 2 Most of which I couldn't repeat on air, right? In fact, there were There was opportunities often to play practical jokes. I was part of the Scots Guards. We did the We guarded Buckingham Palace and Saint James Palace with soldiers who wore the big tall bear skin hats. 45:55 And we did. The changing of the Guard did. 45:58 Speaker 1 You do that. 45:59 Speaker 2 Yes, I spent 2 1/2 years doing that as an officer. So I had to make sure the soldiers were all manning the sentry boxes and doing what they're supposed to do. But there was 1 occasion when we thought we'd play a of a practical joke on the captain of the Guard. 46:17 Speaker 1 Which I'm sure they all loved. 46:18 Speaker 2 And it's got me into trouble yet again. But the the ceremonial key for the outgoing guard commander is handed over to the incoming guard commander at precisely midday on Buckingham Palace forecourt in front of thousands of tourists every day. 46:40 So we I managed to strap an alarm clock inside the bear skin of the outgoing guard commander, my guard commander and set it to go off at 12:00 just as the key was being handed over. 46:56 The bands were all silent. The tourists were all watching in silence and off goes his basket, ringing like yes, inside, of course, there's nothing he could do. Nothing he could do, no fantastic. 47:12 And so he went on with his head ringing with his noise until he was able to March off the parade ground and sort it out. So that got me a few extra tickets so. 47:27 Speaker 1 Let's jump into the the art you, you, how would you describe your art? I mean, would you say illustrator? Would you say cartoonist? Because when you were just discussing creating beautiful backgrounds, and then that's an incredibly difficult thing to do, to tell a joke, first create something beautiful and then to tell a joke. 47:46 Speaker 2 My my aspiration is to humor people and make something amusing. If I can get a laugh, that is the real icing on the cake. But it it's just amusement. It's good enough. 48:02 And you know, you can't aim too high. Well, you can aim high, but you can, you can aim to do what you know you can do, which is actually what art is all about. I think, you know, you a lot of people try and paint something that is way beyond their ability. 48:22 So keep it simple and do what you know you can do, then it'll look really quite good. So yeah, I've, I mean, it's in our world tour that we spent 2 1/2 years on our working honeymoon. 48:41 I exhibited in all kinds of places around the world, many of which I've kept going and connections with, with really interesting places. 48:52 Speaker 1 What would you consider some of your career highlights with your art? 48:58 Speaker 2 Christina Onassis stole one of my paintings off the wall in the Palace Hotel in Saint Maurice in Switzerland as she came out of the nightclub at twelve 1:00 in the morning inebriated. 11 And it was a cartoon of somebody with a terrible hangover, and as the richest woman in the world as she was then, it was quite amusing that that should happen. 49:29 Anyway, I had to get the police to help me to get it back again, put it back up on the wall. Four days later she came back and did exactly the same thing. Took it again. 49:41 Speaker 1 Fantastic, I love it. 49:43 Speaker 2 And so I'd already sold it to somebody else, and I had to say to them, look, I'll get it back if I can. But if I can't, would you accept another one similar? And she said yes, of course. So I eventually had to give in and couldn't get it back the second time. 50:02 So I painted a similar cartoon, but on the background. I put a little painting on the wall of a woman in a fur coat tiptoeing away with a painting under her arm. Titled it The Light Fingered Greek. 50:17 Speaker 1 That is fantastic. 50:19 Speaker 2 But she was, yes, I think she was able to do that, you know, just go around and help herself to what she wanted and somebody would come by and mop up the pieces afterwards. That was quite an amusing time. I've had, I've had a lot of really interesting commissions. 50:37 Probably the best ever was was when the the Royal Company of Archers in Scotland who are the monarchs bodyguard when the monarch comes to Scotland to Holy Rood Palace. 50:52 Speaker 1 Where they spend an incredible amount of time. 50:55 Speaker 2 Yes, they do. Yes, I mean Balmoral Castle and is one of their favorite places to be and it's my cousin is the hereditary keeper of Holy Rood Palace as the Duke of Hamilton, the premier Duke of Scotland. 51:11 Speaker 1 As one is. 51:12 Speaker 2 As one is and his other role is that he he has to to protect and look after the crown of Scotland for when the monarch comes. So whenever it's brought out on parade or or produced for for a coronation or whatever, that is his role to carry it, which is, yeah, it's quite interesting. 51:33 It is. 51:34 Speaker 1 All of that pomp and circumstance, I'm, you know, that's probably the exact wrong thing to say, but one of the things I've always been, you know, quite honestly, from being an American looking at Britain, who I've always wondered, like, who makes that hat? 51:50 Right? When you see someone wearing a, a, a piece of metal, right, that has been hand shaped and there's 50 people standing in a row and they're all wearing the same uniform and they're all wearing the same metal helmet or the bear skin. 52:07 And, and I think of that as like there's someone out there today that's making that, that has been making that for hundreds of years. And it's probably one family and it's 1 little place. But yet that tradition has remained steadfast where you're saying your cousin, you know, holding a crown that seems as as far as you can get from the, you know, American circus that we all kind of exist in where tradition only comes at military. 52:37 Like a military funeral has has tons of tradition, right. If you served in the military, a gun salute and the flag being folded and handing to handed to someone, a president passing away. We have very little cemented tradition in where in Britain it feels like it's every few weeks there's something that you, you, you watch somebody wearing something that you can't believe somebody is still making to this day, right? 53:06 Speaker 2 You're absolutely right. And and there is, is a huge sort of background of people involved with, with the, it's an industry, yeah, with the traditions that we have. 53:16 Speaker 1 I didn't mean to derail you from your cousin moving the the Crown, but it's just, yeah, it's there's probably a book on what he's supposed to do at all. 53:25 Speaker 2 Times Oh, I think there's all sorts of stuff yes, written out, but the hereditary stuff like that, he's very interesting. OK, so there's lots of it. Back to the So back to the Commission that I was given by the Royal Company of Archers. They wanted to give Her Majesty the late Queen Elizabeth a Diamond Jubilee present and I was commissioned to paint 4 cartoons, a set of four, which I did, and we presented those to her at Holy Rood Palace in a private room with I think there were about six of us there. 54:05 And the cartoons were about The Archers themselves. These are people who carry a Longbow and have arrows. Should there be a jihadist in the crowd who decides to have a a go at Harmonic, they would be set about with a bow and arrow. 54:25 So. 54:27 Speaker 1 And they practice. 54:28 Speaker 2 Yes, but I mean, there are of course there are other people. 54:31 Speaker 1 There are other people around, I understand. 54:33 Speaker 2 So the the the four cartoons were about the Royal Company of Archers and their uniform. One of them was. Perhaps I should explain. Each one has a bonnet. And in the bonnet are two eagle feathers and they bend to the right. 54:53 So they have to come out of the wing, the left wing of a golden eagle. And so I did a cartoon of one of these guys climbing up a Cliff face. Both his his feathers are bent and he's got the eagle's irony. 55:11 And the eagle is quietly minding its own business sitting there, and he's plucking a couple of feathers out of his the back of his wing. And when we presented that to the queen, she quick as a flash said, oh, gosh, we're going to have bald eagles here before you know it. 55:33 Speaker 1 This is fantastic. 55:34 Speaker 2 She had. She had such a lovely sense of humour, nicely wicked at times. Not that I knew her that well, but I met her on one other occasion in Windsor Castle when Britain had a promotion of the arts called Cool Britannia. 55:54 Speaker 1 Cool. 55:55 Speaker 2 Britannia. 55:56 Speaker 1 Perfect. 55:58 Speaker 2 But I and I've done other members of the royal family as well. So there's been quite a quite a lot of work I've done also for the Household Cavalry who provide all the mounted escorts for royal occasions such as marriages. 56:20 So I did one when Charles and Diana got married. I had been at the same school as Charles and actually my lovely late wife Fiona had been at the same school as Diana and knew her and I had indeed sold paintings to Diana. 56:40 She came into an exhibition I had specifically wanting something. And yes, that was that was rather lovely. You don't sort of think of it as being a significant moment when it happens, but it's looking back on it. 56:55 It's it's wonderful. I also painted a picture for Princess Anne for which she gave to the Queen for her golden wedding anniversary. And when I went to Windsor Castle, I said to her, Your Majesty, you might remember that I did a painting for you. 57:17 And she said, oh, it's you. It is. 57:30 Speaker 1 That's fantastic. 57:32 Speaker 2 And she said yes, I I have it by my bedside, which I was incredibly flattered with. 57:41 Speaker 1 Loon you in your life is I hope you write your autobiography. I really do I mean you have had a opportunity to live a fantastic life. 57:57 I mean part of our just just me and you having a conversation in the last week and I, I, like I said, I, I feel a beautiful kinship. I consider you a friend. I hope you know one day, I hope you would consider me one. 58:10 Speaker 2 Of course I do. Of course I. 58:12 Speaker 1 Do I know? But I, I feel lucky to be in the same room with you. And the beauty of that is there is something truly magnificent about living a well earned life and to be able to grow up in a place where you're tobogganing, you know, down a 52 room man, I don't know what to call it. 58:35 Estate. Yes, right. And riding bikes and, and, and having a, a mother and father that are fostering humor and a mother who is fostering art and is creative and sending you tapes while you're away of just sounds of your father snoring and, and the sounds outside, right, while you're 14 years old and halfway around the world meeting your beautiful wife, taking a, a trip where you say, let's go for a few, you go for a year and oh, let's, let's make it 2. 59:07 And then living in a garage in the San Ynez Valley and, and, but never losing. And this is the part that I, I am, I admire. I still try straight right Hemingway. The world breaks everyone, but it some people, it just takes its time. 59:25 And with you, you, won't you, you were not broken. You were creating art. You stayed in this conversation. You've laughed 50 times. You, you, you had tears in your eyes thinking of thinking backwards, right? 59:41 But every time I see you, it is I can see someone who loves life that is on life's adventure. And I think in this day and age, what the world needs more of is people thinking about life as an adventure. 59:57 If, if everything is a experience, right? If everything is an experience. And I think your art says it really well because one of the things I've seen in your art is, you know, if it's someone getting kicked by a horse or something bad happening to someone, there's always that moment of, of almost levity. 1:00:16 When the bad thing is happening versus getting stuck in the mud, right, you're like, well, here I am, here I am again, right, kind of a thing and having humor with it versus getting stuck in the the bad place that you're in right now. And if anybody could take a page from you, it it is to have humor in the worst of times, have humor in the best of times. 1:00:37 Be looking forward to something else and all the while creating art as you go. 1:00:42 Speaker 2 Well, you pay me a lot of compliments. 1:00:45 Speaker 1 But I see it in you. I see. 1:00:46 Speaker 2 It yeah, but I've got to fire a few back at you guys too because I come here every year religiously to go and participate in rancheros and it gives me an opportunity to discard my mobile phone, sit around the campfire and share time with people. 1:01:10 Not only that, you get on the back of a horse and what a huge privilege that is to ride around your countryside and the the remote wilderness areas with friends and with strangers who you've never met before. And you make friends chatting away, sitting in our horse and and walking into the sunset. 1:01:31 It is truly beautiful and they that experience to me is very, very valuable. And I love coming here too because, you know, there's a lot wrong with this world at the moment. And in the last week, I have probably sung God Bless America about 40 times. 1:01:52 I now know the world's inside out except for the setting second line when it says from the light with the light up above. And I always mix that bit up anyway. I, I love the patriotism. It's not nationalism. 1:02:08 It's the patriotism that is evident here. The, the, the respect that is paid to people who have served the respect and, and, and importance of your flag and believing in, in your country which leads the Western world. 1:02:26 I mean, goodness me, isn't it evident in what's happening in the Straits of Hormuz and Iran and America has taken a bold step and I think Britain should support you guys to the hilt. 1:02:42 It's it's wonderful. One other thing I I did just to sort of underline the negative side of life which which the mobile telephone created. I took my computer into my garden a few years ago and shot it with my rifle. 1:03:04 Speaker 1 I expect nothing less than that from you. 1:03:10 Speaker 2 Well, it was, it was, it was a heartfelt and I can't help you know, the fact that AI is now creeping into the portfolio of cartoons. 1:03:25 I mean, even publications that I've been used to seeing have changed out of recognition with, with AI, I'm treating it as a bit of an enemy at the moment, although I do sometimes use it. 1:03:41 But I'm, I'm fearful that people would lose what is essentially the, the, the goodness in each other in the chemistry of a face to face meeting with somebody and the, and the love that you find for each other. 1:03:57 Speaker 1 I have friendship. I see that pendulum swinging. I just me personally, because one of the things I am very proud of America for doing right now is when these data centers come in, there are entire towns that are showing up and saying no. There are, I think the pendulum with the youth that I see with my children, right? 1:04:16 They value community, they value face to face. They value live music. They value going to the pub. Well, my daughter does. My son's a little young for that, but they really love what physical, almost physical connection. And I, I am very, very hopeful for the future because I can see them looking at those things as tools, but also seeing value in humanity, seeing value in true painting because everybody now can look at an AI go, I see it's AI great, but that's disposable. 1:04:49 But something like, and I'll just say it to you. I handed you a pen in my cowboy hat the other night and you just walked off and sat by a fire for a little while and doodled all over it. And what you've what if you have given my family is an heirloom. And that's that's, and I mean that truthfully, because I think that there is going to be a vast difference between these things that are disposable. 1:05:13 And then the value on things that are not disposable is going to skyrocket exponentially because a real person put a real pen to a real paper and sat there and thought about it and did something. 1:05:29 And I see the youth valuing that to no end. So I think you have a good 25 years left. And I think, you know, like I said to you, you, you were Banksy before Banksy, I mean. 1:05:42 Speaker 2 Very it it was a a lovely opportunity and I felt I was taking a bit of a risk when I did a tiger being milk. 1:05:52 Speaker 1 Well, we don't have to go into it. 1:05:55 Speaker 2 Which? 1:05:55 Speaker 1 What happens there stays there. Come on, man, we've gotten past our time, but I could talk to you for five hours and I, I, I look forward to seeing you in about a year. 1:06:09 Speaker 2 Well, I'll be back unless, well, even as a ghost, I'll come back. 1:06:14 Speaker 1 Feel free to haunt me. 1:06:16 Speaker 2 I will perfect. 1:06:18 Speaker 1 Everybody, you have listened to two episodes of one of the most interesting people on the planet. There are a few people in this world that are truly rare. Oh, go ahead. 1:06:30 Speaker 2 So I would just like to say thank you so much, Keith, and hold on to what you've got here because I've heard a lot of people saying what's going on in Britain and we are having a pretty difficult time. And I like the values that have a good moral compass that I'm finding here. 1:06:52 And Britain is hopefully going to follow you guys for a bit. 1:06:57 Speaker 1 Well, you are cordially invited if you ever need to find a place other than Britain to live. I think the San Ynez Valley would be very, very lucky to have you. 1:07:06 Speaker 2 Well, that's a lovely idea. You never know. 1:07:11 Speaker 1 So everybody that you have been listening to chopping it up with our good friend Loon who will be back in one year, I think he promised we'll have him back on with more stories. This has been chopping it up on 105.9 Crazy Country. Back to your regularly scheduled programming.
Episode 47 – Kevin Malone: Mattie’s Tavern, Local Food, Fast Cars, Big Jumps, and Feeding the Santa Ynez Valley
In Episode 47 of Chopping It Up with Keith Saarloos, Keith sits down with Kevin Malone, Executive Chef of Mattie’s Tavern at The Inn at Mattei’s Tavern, an Auberge Resorts Collection property located in the heart of California’s Santa Ynez Valley. Kevin oversees every aspect of the culinary experience at Mattie’s Tavern, including the restaurant, tavern menu, banquets, weddings, room service, pool dining, coffee service, and guest experiences across one of the most iconic hospitality properties in Los Olivos. Keith and Kevin discuss the history of Mattie’s Tavern and why so many locals consider it the living room of the Santa Ynez Valley. From longtime residents gathering around the fireplace to visitors discovering the valley for the first time, Mattie’s has long served as a gathering place where food, hospitality, and community come together. The conversation explores Kevin’s journey from western Massachusetts to Mammoth Mountain, where he spent years skiing, building terrain parks, driving snow cats, and chasing adventure. Eventually, cooking became more than a job—it became a craft. After working in restaurants throughout Los Angeles and Malibu, Kevin found his way to Mattie’s Tavern, where he transformed from a talented cook into a chef and ultimately returned years later to lead the kitchen. Keith and Kevin also discuss the challenge of balancing the expectations of locals with those of luxury travelers visiting an Auberge resort. Together they explore menu development, community ownership, hospitality, customer experience, and why great restaurants become part of the identity of a town. Outside the kitchen, Kevin shares stories about rebuilding vintage Volkswagens, driving 1,000-mile rally events across California, restoring a Volkswagen Rabbit pickup truck in just two weeks, and his lifelong tendency to go all-in on everything he pursues. More than a conversation about food, this episode is about craftsmanship, hard work, community pride, and the people who quietly help make the Santa Ynez Valley one of the most special places in California. Kevin Malone represents the kind of local leadership that keeps historic places relevant, welcoming, and connected to the people who call the valley home.
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Episode Title:
Kevin Malone: Mattie’s Tavern, Local Food, Fast Cars, Big Jumps, and Feeding the Santa Ynez ValleyIn this episode of Chopping It Up, Keith Saarloos sits down with Kevin Malone, Executive Chef of Mattie’s Tavern in Los Olivos, California, to talk about food, community, craft, and what it means to bring a beloved Santa Ynez Valley institution back to life. Kevin oversees the kitchen at Mattie’s Tavern, including the restaurant, bar, banquets, weddings, coffee shop, room service, pool service, and every plate that leaves the kitchen at one of the Valley’s most iconic gathering places.
Keith and Kevin talk about the history of Mattie’s Tavern, why locals feel ownership over the restaurant, and how the bar has long served as the living room of the Santa Ynez Valley. The conversation explores how Kevin helped restore the soul of Mattie’s by honoring its past while bringing a sharper culinary focus to the menu, from the burger and fried chicken sandwich to steak frites, salads, comfort food, and elevated tavern classics.
But Kevin’s story goes far beyond the kitchen. He talks about growing up in Massachusetts, moving across the country on a Greyhound bus to chase skiing in Mammoth, building terrain parks, working in snow cats, cooking in Malibu and Los Angeles, and eventually finding his way back to Mattie’s. Keith and Kevin also dive into Kevin’s love of 1980s and 1990s Volkswagens and Audis, including the story of rebuilding a Volkswagen Rabbit pickup truck engine after work and immediately driving it on a 1,000-mile rally through California back roads.
More than a conversation with a chef, this episode is about hunger in every form. Hunger to get better. Hunger to build something with your hands. Hunger to serve your community well. Hunger to bring pride back to a place people love. Kevin Malone represents the kind of independent, hardworking, all-in local character that makes the Santa Ynez Valley special. Whether you know him from Mattie’s Tavern, the kitchen, the bar, the burger, the rally roads, the ski hill, or the community, this episode is a reminder that great towns are built by people who care deeply about what they make and who they make it for.
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Topics Covered
• Kevin Malone, Executive Chef at Mattie’s Tavern
• Mattie’s Tavern in Los Olivos, California
• The Inn at Mattei’s Tavern and Auberge Resorts
• Why Mattie’s Tavern is the living room of the Santa Ynez Valley
• Local restaurants and community gathering places
• Bringing back the soul and identity of Mattie’s Tavern
• Creating a menu for both locals and luxury hotel guests
• Burgers, fried chicken sandwiches, steak frites, salads, and tavern classics
• Why locals feel ownership over historic restaurants
• Kevin’s first time working at Mattie’s in 2014 and 2015
• Whole animal butchery, local ingredients, and scratch cooking
• Returning to Mattie’s in 2023
• Becoming Executive Chef of Mattie’s Tavern
• Santa Ynez Valley food culture
• The importance of chefs walking the dining room
• Growing up in western Massachusetts
• Moving to Mammoth on a Greyhound bus
• Professional skiing and terrain park culture
• Working in snow cats and building ski jumps
• Cooking in Malibu and Los Angeles
• Learning the difference between being a good cook and becoming a chef
• Kevin’s love of 1980s and 1990s Audis and Volkswagens
• Rebuilding a Volkswagen Rabbit pickup truck engine
• Driving a 1,000-mile California rally
• Parkfield, Cayucos, and Central Coast back roads
• Being a husband, father of twins, chef, skier, and car builder
• Craftsmanship, independence, hard work, and Valley pride
• Supporting local restaurants, wineries, grocery stores, coffee shops, and independent radio -
FAQ
Who is Kevin Malone?
Kevin Malone is the Executive Chef at Mattie’s Tavern in Los Olivos, California. He oversees the kitchen, restaurant, bar menu, banquets, weddings, coffee shop, room service, pool service, and culinary operations at one of the Santa Ynez Valley’s most historic gathering places.Where does Kevin Malone work?
Kevin Malone is the Executive Chef at Mattie’s Tavern, part of The Inn at Mattei’s Tavern, an Auberge Resorts Collection property in Los Olivos, California.What is Mattie’s Tavern known for?
Mattie’s Tavern is known as one of the great historic gathering places in the Santa Ynez Valley. Locals know it for its bar, fireplace, tavern food, community atmosphere, and long-standing role as a social center of Los Olivos.Why does Keith Saarloos call Mattie’s Tavern the living room of the Valley?
Keith describes Mattie’s Tavern as the living room of the Santa Ynez Valley because it has long been a place where locals gather, visitors become regulars, bartenders remember your drink, and the community feels at home.What food does Kevin Malone serve at Mattie’s Tavern?
Kevin’s menu focuses on elevated tavern classics, including the burger, fried chicken sandwich, steak frites, salads, comfort food, and dishes that balance local familiarity with the standards of a luxury hotel restaurant.How did Kevin Malone become Executive Chef at Mattie’s Tavern?
Kevin first worked at Mattie’s around 2014 and 2015, later cooked in other restaurants, and returned to Mattie’s in 2023. After working as Chef de Cuisine, he became Executive Chef and helped restore the restaurant’s local identity and culinary focus.What makes Kevin Malone’s approach to Mattie’s Tavern different?
Kevin understands that Mattie’s Tavern belongs emotionally to the local community. His approach honors the restaurant’s history while improving the food, service, menu, and overall experience for both locals and visitors.Was Kevin Malone a skier before becoming a chef?
Yes. Kevin moved from Massachusetts to Mammoth after high school to pursue skiing. He spent years skiing, working in snow cats, building terrain parks, and living inside the mountain-town culture before fully committing to cooking.What kind of cars does Kevin Malone like?
Kevin is passionate about 1980s and 1990s Audis and Volkswagens. In the episode, he talks about rebuilding the engine in a Volkswagen Rabbit pickup truck and driving it on a 1,000-mile rally through California.What is this episode of Chopping It Up about?
This episode is about Kevin Malone’s journey from skiing and car building to becoming Executive Chef at Mattie’s Tavern. It also explores Santa Ynez Valley food culture, local restaurants, community pride, craftsmanship, and the importance of supporting independent businesses.Why should people listen to this episode?
People should listen to this episode to understand the person behind the food at Mattie’s Tavern and why local restaurants matter. Kevin’s story is about hard work, craft, family, cars, skiing, food, and feeding a community with pride.Where is Mattie’s Tavern located?
Mattie’s Tavern is located in Los Olivos, California, in the heart of the Santa Ynez Valley.What does this episode say about supporting local businesses?
Keith and Kevin talk about the importance of supporting local restaurants, wineries, grocery stores, coffee shops, radio stations, and independent businesses because they are what keep the Santa Ynez Valley unique, strong, and alive.What is the main message of Kevin Malone’s episode?
The main message is that great communities are built by people who care. Kevin Malone brings that care to Mattie’s Tavern through food, work ethic, hospitality, and a deep respect for the Santa Ynez Valley.
Listen to This EpisodeSpotify:
https://open.spotify.com/episode/3EMjMeRTa3wrZlYdfUNvUGMattie's Tavern → https://aubergeresorts.com/matteis-tavern/
The Inn at Mattei's Tavern → https://aubergeresorts.com/matteis-tavern/
Auberge Resorts Collection → https://aubergeresorts.com/
Santa Ynez Valley → https://saarloosandsons.com/
Chopping It Up Podcast → https://saarloosandsons.com/sscopod
Kevin Malone Episode on Spotify → https://open.spotify.com/episode/3EMjMeRTa3wrZlYdfUNvUG
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0:00
Introducing Kevin Malone, Executive Chef at Mattie's Tavern
Hey everybody, it's a Saturday at 10 AM and so that means it is time for chopping it up on one O 5.9 Crazy country.
This is Keith Sarlos, your host, winemaker, farmer, manabout town.
Today we have a very special guest, someone that you may know, may not know, but a local nonetheless.
0:20
His name is Kevin Malone.
Good morning, Kevin.
How are you doing?
0:23
Speaker 2
I'm good, I'm doing good.
0:24
Speaker 1
So for the record, tell us about what you do in the Valley.
0:28
Speaker 2
I am the executive chef at Maddie's Tavern.
It's now an auberge hotel, right?
So we have 57 rooms, 67 rooms, and I run the kitchen and the Tavern, all the banquets.
0:44
We do between 40 and 50 weddings a year.
The coffee shop, Felix's and all the food to the rooms, the pool, everything.
0:53
Speaker 1
If you're eating it or drinking it, you got it from Kevin.
Yes.
0:56
Mattie's Tavern: The Living Room of the Valley
So Kevin, I wanted to have you on for a few different reasons.
One, if I rollback time, you know, 2025 years ago, even further, right, The in at Maddie's Tavern, the bar, the restaurant has had a incredible history.
You mean it's gone through a bunch of different hands.
1:13
I mean, it was a chart house at one point, but I have always thought that the bar at Maddie's Tavern is responsible for maybe 25% of the people who live in this valley.
They went there and they saw that vibe, right?
They saw even back when JC was running it, even to today, right?
1:31
You go it, you would go in there and you go there two times and then they're remembering your drink.
You know, it was a it was a gathering place.
It is the living room of the Valley.
Because as I like to think about it, you know, you need two things in a community to succeed.
1:47
You need a really great coffee shop and you need a really great pub.
And Maddie's Tavern for me has always been that in a few different ways.
Specifically the bar, because I remember going in there when it was dark and everything else and and the fire was rolling and there was even smoke in the room and the whole deal, right?
2:05
Speaker 2
Yeah, there's still smoke in the.
2:06
Speaker 1
Room.
There's still smoke in the room and we've had Logan on here talking about kind of old days at Maddie's.
But one of the things I wanted to do was kind of bring you up front from back, behind the behind the grill, you know, behind the the the pit and bring you out on front St. because you and I have become friends over the years.
2:23
And I have seen your rise from and, and jump in at any point from just working at Maddie's to being AI.
What I would like to consider a local that is the executive chef, Yeah.
2:37
Kevin Malone's Unexpected Path to Mattie's Tavern
How did you start?
What was your journey there?
2:40
Speaker 2
When I first started at Maddie's, I was working in LA kind of at a restaurant that for lack of a better explanation, I was kind of like too, too good to be at.
2:56
And I had a friend who had left who was working with me at that restaurant.
He left and started working at this crazy restaurant in LA called Inc.
And he he sent me an ad for a cooking, I don't remember if the ad was for like a sous chef or a line cook job.
3:14
And just like the description in the ad made Maddie sound so cool.
It sounded like culinary summer camp.
So I responded to the ad, came up and stayed in cabin one, which is now Oak.
Stayed there for a couple days and worked in the kitchen.
3:30
And I went from being like working in a place where I was the the only guy with the brain to being the worst one in the kitchen.
And immediately I was like, this is the spot I need to be.
So tried to surround myself with guys who are way better than me and.
3:44
Speaker 1
How many years ago was this?
3:46
Speaker 2
That was in 2015 I believe. 14 or 15 pre COVID?
Pre COVID when Charles Banks and Robbie Wilson owned the place and then.
4:01
Speaker 1
Which was an interesting era for the Maddie's.
4:03
Speaker 2
Tavern, yeah, I mean, it was I I like to describe it as we were a little too early for the valley.
Like the food was incredible.
The stuff we were doing in the kitchen was so cool and like, everything from scratch, everything local.
4:18
We were like butchering whole animals.
And the kitchen was brand new at the time.
And I just, I like, fell in love with the place.
It was so, so cool.
And I was there with Logan and me and Logan we're like quick friends and got really tight.
And yeah, it was just a little too early.
4:35
Everybody thought we were to LA.
But now, now all the restaurants are a lot similar to what we were doing then.
4:42
Speaker 1
Well, you know, skating where the puck is going is always different.
You know, if you're if you're true early, you're a martyr.
And if you're right on time, then all of a sudden you're like, hey, this is exactly what I want, right?
Yeah, totally.
You've done a lot of really interesting stuff there that I mean, specifically the burger and the like.
4:59
Crafting Mattie's Menu: Balancing Luxury and Local Authenticity
I'm, I'm a big bar guy, right?
It's like I love bars just in general.
And your burger is fantastic, man.
You have, as Logan says, you have a black belt in burgers.
5:09
Speaker 2
Yeah, I heard that that was pretty.
5:10
Speaker 1
Cool.
That's a pretty great line.
So tell us a little bit about the menu you got going on there.
5:14
Speaker 2
Right in the bar specifically, like that's, that's what I wanted.
I wanted to like hit all the the classic things that people look for when they go into a bar.
Chicken sandwich, a burger, you know, I got the steak frites back on there now, couple salads, but just, you know, that that heavy comfort stuff and just kind of do it really, really well.
5:34
Yeah, we were sort of missing that for a while when I first came back.
I came back in 2023 and Rhoda was there and she was doing really good considering like we're opening a restaurant and a hotel.
And when you're new at Maddie's, it's really hard to understand the the ownership that everyone in the Valley has for that place.
5:57
Speaker 1
I am so glad you brought that up because I think that's one of the things that is almost endemic of what Maddie's is like when I kind of brought up like how many people live in the valley just because of that living room setting or that pub setting or the bar setting at Maddie's, right?
6:14
They feel like they own it.
And, you know, even back when when they changed it a bunch and, and changed the bar and people like, immediately it felt like people were like, well, I'm not going there anymore.
And they just like cut it off a list.
But I thought what you guys have done so great over there and that whole team of like, really great people, you know, was you brought the old bar back and then all of a sudden it, it felt like going home.
6:35
Yeah.
6:36
Speaker 2
I I think that's, that's something that was a little missed when a Berish first came, you know, like they, it's this high luxury resort.
And the cool thing about Auberge is a lot of the properties are these like pre-existing old places and they kind of let them be themselves.
6:54
But having been closed for a while and, you know, going from Charles to Bryan and, and not really having too much going on in between the the like identity, culinary identity of the place was sort of missing.
So that was a, a big goal of mine when I took over last year was to get that back and find our, our lane and.
7:15
Speaker 1
That's exactly why you're here today because I think you've done an Absolutely Fabulous job of bringing back that ownership of like the community ownership back to a restaurant where they come in, they go, oh, this feels like the way it used to.
And you go in and bartenders kind of remember your drink and you'd like, you know, knew exactly the way you want it.
7:34
And it's like, oh, this, this is better than eating at home.
And I just wanted to commend you for that.
Well, thank you for seeing it.
I mean, and that's the part of you that I want to talk about even more 'cause I think one of the least interesting things about you is the fact that you're the head chef at Maddie's.
7:50
But I think you guys have done a great job as being a community location.
I mean, I didn't know much about Orbearish resorts.
That's not usually where me I personally stay, you know, just.
7:59
Speaker 2
As Me neither, yeah.
8:01
Speaker 1
But I've had the opportunity to go to a few 'cause when it became an orbearish, I went to a friend's wedding in Colorado and there was a a hotel that it's I'm.
8:12
Speaker 2
Going to blow it the Telluride one.
8:14
Speaker 1
No, the Aspen one.
8:15
Speaker 2
OK.
That's Jerome.
Jerome.
8:16
Speaker 1
And that's where Hunter S Thompson, you know, had his bar or that he would go to that bar every single day.
And when you go in there, you're like, oh, this feels more like a part of the community than it is a standard hotel where they build a hotel and it just looks like that hotel.
8:32
Totally.
Does that make sense?
Yeah, I've.
8:34
Speaker 2
I've worked for a few different hotel brands, like I, I worked at Rosewood in San Martin up by Gilroy and I worked at Four Seasons in Montecito and like, they're all great.
But that was one of the things that like, keeps me at Auberge is that like, we get to be our own little unique place where you're not just like a cookie cutter.
8:54
Oh, this is an Auberge.
8:56
Speaker 1
You know, and Hampton Inn looks like a Hampton Inn.
8:58
Speaker 2
Yeah, exactly.
And and you know, obviously I have like a really strong connection with Maddie's.
So it just turned out to be an auberge.
I only came back to the valley to be at Maddie's so.
9:08
Speaker 1
Did you really?
9:09
Speaker 2
Yes.
9:10
Speaker 1
So you chose that.
9:11
Speaker 2
Yes, I did.
9:13
Speaker 1
Well, then I think the ownership aspect of like you taking that over and going, no, I want to come back to this place because I could say this off to the side and nobody was listening.
So it's just me and you, which was, you know, the the pride that you do take in that place.
9:29
Like you kind of opened the door there a second ago, but you're like, no, I want to be the head chef at this restaurant.
And as someone who loves the restaurant and loves this community, that's exactly what you want from anybody.
It's like, no, no, no, this feels like my hometown and I want to be the head chef in my hometown.
9:47
And I think that's one of the things that you personify that it maybe you haven't been to Maddie's in a while.
Maybe definitely give it another shot and go get a burger, get a fried chicken sandwich, you know, go in the bar and feel it out again, 'cause I think you brought back that old feeling from 20 years ago with a little bit of a uptick in culinary and, and, and exploration and it feels like home.
10:12
And I think you've done a great job.
10:13
Speaker 2
Of that well, thank you.
That's that's where I, I want it to be.
I, I mean, obviously we have expectations being an auberish that are, you know, a little, a little higher than your local neighborhood bar and it's a really fine line to dance.
10:29
And that's what I'm constantly trying to do, figure out how I can have it be comfortable for people like you and, you know, other locals, but at the same time, like, keep that person who's spending a lot of money to be there all weekend, keep them happy and feel like they're getting value out of it.
10:43
Speaker 1
I think that's a really tough line to cross and you you do it really well where local feels welcome and somebody who's pretending to be local for the weekend.
I think it's a good way to because I.
10:53
Speaker 2
Fresh hat from Jed Liquors.
Fresh out rolling in, I don't.
10:57
Speaker 1
Know you could.
You could spot them a while away.
10:59
From Professional Skier to Rally Car Mechanic: Kevin's Diverse Passions
You're like, hey, it's on backwards, let's transition a little bit because like I said, you are an incredibly interesting person.
So professional skier at one point, is this correct?
11:10
Speaker 2
Yeah, my life revolved around skiing for a long time.
11:14
Speaker 1
Tell me stories man, because I have seen videos of you if you look, I mean if you look you up online right now on YouTube, there are videos of you backflipping highways, is that correct?
11:25
Speaker 2
Maybe I don't.
I don't look at them often, but there's some stuff floating around from the old.
11:30
Speaker 1
Days you were legit man.
11:31
Speaker 2
Yeah, I Yeah.
So right after high school, I.
11:35
Speaker 1
Where'd you go to high?
11:36
Speaker 2
School by then I went to high school in Massachusetts.
OK, So I grew up in western Massachusetts in a small town a lot like, you know, Los Alamos or Los Olivos, where I live now.
And I all as much as like, you know, you grow up in a small town in high school and stuff, you're like, man, I wish I was around more people.
11:53
And you know you want to, you want to go do something more interesting.
11:56
Speaker 1
Nobody wants to be where they are.
Yeah, totally.
11:58
Speaker 2
So as soon as high school was over, I I was really, really, really into skiing.
Like I I got into it around 1998, nineteen 99 and it just like I got the bug and fell in love with it and mammoth was like the place to be if you were hit and jumped on skis like that was the coolest place to be.
12:19
So it is the.
12:20
Speaker 1
Bleeding edge it still is.
12:21
Speaker 2
Yeah, it's the best.
So I I moved to Mammoth on a Greyhound bus, left Massachusetts on a Greyhound bus, took me 5 days with one of my best friends and I got crazy stories from the bus, but that would take all day.
And then we, yeah, we, we got to Reno, had some friends of friends pick us up and.
12:41
And then I ended up living there for about 12 or 13 years.
Really.
Yeah.
12:45
Speaker 1
Where'd you work in Rena?
Where'd you work in Mammoth?
12:48
Speaker 2
I cooked a little bit when I first got there.
Like cooking in me was a love hate thing for a long time.
My dad cooked and he he was always working three jobs when I was a kid and wasn't able to be around much.
But I picked it up from him.
So it was like he told me when I was a kid.
13:04
He's like, you'll never, you'll never be hungry if you're working in the kitchen and you'll, you know, you'll always have a job if you know how to cook.
So it was always the fall back gig.
So right when I got to Mammoth, I got a job as a janitor, which was pretty cool.
I didn't work until 4:00 at in the afternoon every day.
13:21
So I got to ski every single day and then quickly got out of that and got into the restaurants and was cooking a little bit.
But I wanted to be in a snow cat.
I thought that was the coolest thing there was.
It still is, yeah.
13:35
Speaker 1
It's heavy machinery is awesome.
It was cool.
Come on.
Yeah.
13:38
Speaker 2
So eventually I got myself into a snow cat and did that for a couple seasons working fleet, which is where you're just grooming the trails.
And then after two or three seasons I started building park.
So then I was working in the park, building jumps and setting up rails and stuff and.
13:54
Speaker 1
Were you running the dragon?
13:55
Speaker 2
No, no dragon.
OK, I was.
That's a deep.
13:57
Speaker 1
Cut for everybody's listing.
13:59
Speaker 2
To be totally honest, I was not super good in the Snow Cat but the boys liked having me around 'cause I hit all the jumps where none of them.
14:06
Speaker 1
You were building them for yourself.
14:07
Speaker 2
Yeah, none of them really did.
So the guys building the big jumps would ask me to come hop in the cat and tell them what I thought.
And yeah, so that was, that was cool.
That enabled me to keep skiing.
And yeah, I did that for a long, long time.
It was awesome.
14:22
Speaker 1
OK, so skiing we're going to get we're I'm going to, we're going to put this all together.
This is going to be a good story.
Another passion of yours is cars.
14:31
Speaker 2
Yep, so.
14:32
Speaker 1
Let's hear about it, because I know you just got back from something super awesome.
Tell me the whole.
14:36
Speaker 2
Story Yeah, I just went on a a three day rally in Parkfield.
What?
14:41
Speaker 1
Kind of cars specifically.
14:42
Speaker 2
I like 80s and 90s Audis and Volkswagens.
So I have a 1990 Golf GTI and a 1981 Rabbit pickup truck and I took the pickup truck on this rally and about two weeks before the rally started I found out my motor was blown in the truck.
15:03
So I was in a little bit of a time crunch the the GTI was definitely not going to be ready and as crazy as it sounds, it was easier for me to put in.
15:12
Speaker 1
A motor.
So all project cars, yeah.
15:14
Speaker 2
OK, they're it's it's a 30 or 40 year olds.
15:17
Speaker 1
Car.
No, no, it's always a project.
I know.
I'm just painting the picture for everybody who's listening at home.
15:21
Speaker 2
So yeah, I went and got a picked up a motor that a buddy had sitting in his garage for about a decade and every night after work started working on that motor and kind of halfway rebuilt it.
I didn't tear it open, but I replaced the all the maintenance stuff, cleaned it up, made it fresh, took all the good parts off my old one, put it on the new one, pulled the old one out of the car, put the new one in the car, And I got it ready at around noon on Wednesday and then left for the rally at 10 in the morning on Thursday.
15:55
Speaker 1
So OK, two things.
What time do you get off work?
15:58
Speaker 2
Between 9:30 and 10:00 at night, so.
16:02
Speaker 1
What time?
So what time in the morning were you working on this?
16:04
Speaker 2
We're doing like, I go home, do the little couch, chat with the missus every night and then hop in the garage.
Yeah, talking about the kids.
And then pretty much between 10:00 and 2:00 in the morning.
I was working on the car for two weeks to get it ready.
16:19
Speaker 1
OK, so you finished this thing.
How long was this rally?
16:23
Speaker 2
Probably about 1000 miles.
16:25
Speaker 1
1000 miles.
So you you wait, wait, wait.
You motor swapped your truck, finished it on a Wednesday.
Thursday started a rally for 1000 miles.
Yeah, in a Volkswagen.
16:38
Speaker 2
Rabbit pickup.
16:39
Speaker 1
Truck Rabbit pickup truck How many cars were on the rally?
16:42
Speaker 2
I think about 60 or 70.
16:45
Speaker 1
Pretty big rally though.
Yeah, cool.
We see, I mean, the cool part about being in the Valley, you can there's a lot of rallies that are coming through and all of a sudden you'll see like like 50 Datsuns or you'll see like, but when it's.
16:56
Speaker 2
Always 9 elevens.
There's just 1,000,009.
16:58
Speaker 1
Elevens 1,000,009 Elevens.
I always love the running of the bulls when all of a sudden you're sitting on 154 and, you know, mowing or something like that.
And then all of a sudden like 50 lambos just RIP through.
Yep.
And then I'm like, Oh my gosh, when Cash was a little kid, I we, we were sitting there and I think it was Pelican or quail.
17:16
Speaker 2
When all for the quail.
17:17
Speaker 1
For the quail.
So when everybody's driving up to Monterey and we were sitting on the corner and all these incredible supercars come by, right?
And then I'm not going to say his name, but this guy drove, drove by in a flatbed and was kind of in, in between all of them.
17:32
And I looked at Cash and I said, you want me to show you the guy who's got the most money in that line?
And he goes, yeah.
And I said it's the flatbed truck.
And he's like, really?
I'm like, 100%, man, just so you know, just so you know.
And he's like, oh, really?
I'm like, yeah, I go once for show, once for go.
I said the flatbeds for go.
17:48
Speaker 2
It's cool to see him driving.
It's those cars, you know, a lot of those guys just keep him in a heated garage and don't drive.
17:54
Speaker 1
I mean, if you die with a low odometer, you know you lost.
Yeah, that's the truth.
So where did the rally go?
18:00
Speaker 2
So it was in Parkfield.
We started in Cayucas and then drove out to Parkfield day one and stayed there.
So it was like a camping rally.
So we camped out at Parkfield Cafe.
If anybody doesn't know where Parkfield is, it's like 45 minutes east of Is it Santa Margarita up there just north of Paso?
18:20
Yeah.
And it's in the middle of nowhere.
There's like a population of 18.
It's this one family owns like 250,000 acres and it's super super.
18:27
Speaker 1
It's kind of like going to Gary.
Yeah, Yeah.
Like where's Gary?
Yeah, there he is.
18:32
Speaker 2
Very similar, yeah.
And then we just camped out there and just ripped back roads for three days and came back every night and hung out.
18:40
Speaker 1
That's fantastic.
18:41
Speaker 2
Yeah, it was super cool.
18:42
Speaker 1
OK, so.
18:44
Speaker 2
And car did great.
I had a couple things wiggle loose, you know, bolts it I needed to retorque but.
18:50
Speaker 1
If you can swap an engine in a in a week after work I'm I think you'll be fine.
18:55
Speaker 2
Yeah, it was all good.
Everything was good right at home.
18:58
Speaker 1
Skiing, cars.
19:00
Kevin Malone's 'All-In' Philosophy and Reclaiming Mattie's Soul
Anything else we should know about you?
What else are you passionate about?
I mean, your pet.
That's the.
I think that would be a great theme for you.
I mean, it's like the you don't do anything halfway.
Yeah, I.
19:10
Speaker 2
Go all in.
Usually you go all.
I like something.
19:12
Speaker 1
And and a perfectionist.
19:14
Speaker 2
I mean I have my kids, I love my kids.
I have twins, boy, girl twins that are about to be 4.
So between them, the car work and the wife, I don't even have much time for skiing anymore.
It's a pretty full life.
Yeah, pretty full.
19:28
Speaker 1
But I'd never see you without a smile on your face, so that's pretty good.
19:31
Speaker 2
Yeah, you just catch me on the good.
19:33
Speaker 1
Day.
That's true.
You put it on?
Yeah.
19:36
Speaker 2
I do try my best to get out and say hi to everybody in the.
19:38
Speaker 1
Restaurant so which I also think is a very, very smart move if you live in this valley.
Restaurants have been made and lost on the chef walking out and going.
How you doing?
Yeah, you know, it's like, oh, the chef knows who I am.
I'm coming back to this place, right.
19:54
Totally.
It is a that's a five star move as far as anybody.
19:57
Speaker 2
Goes.
I learned that from Drew Terp.
19:59
Speaker 1
Really.
20:00
Speaker 2
You know, I used to work with at Maddie's and then was the opening chef at Pico in Los Alamos.
That's that's something I learned from him.
He always made sure to go out and say hi to everybody.
20:10
Speaker 1
You are a local boy through and through, man.
So let me go back to food a little bit.
You brought up a a very nice humble brag, which I really appreciate.
You're like, I was too good for this restaurant, you know?
When did you catch the bug and how did you grab hold of you and what was your kind of process and and your progression?
20:29
Speaker 2
There was, it's a little wonky.
Like there was a point when I was in Mammoth and I wasn't really skiing anymore, but I was still there.
I wasn't really sure what I was doing.
Snow cats were cool, but I was never going to be like real life successful being in the snow cat.
20:45
Like I said, I wasn't very good at it, but it it was cool to kill the time and I didn't want to be one of those guys who was fifty with no knees, you know, renting an overpriced crappy apartment in Mammoth.
And I didn't want to be that guy.
And then my dad actually passed away on the East Coast.
21:01
Sorry to hear that.
And I.
21:02
Speaker 1
It's a it's a terrible club.
21:04
Speaker 2
Yeah, it's, you know, everybody, everybody's got to do it.
It's part of life.
You know, it is a terrible club.
So I was a little, I was a little shaken up when that happened.
I didn't really know what to do.
So I decided to just try to try out the cooking thing, see if I liked it.
21:19
And I moved to LA and ended up in this little, little restaurant in Malibu that isn't there anymore.
It was in Point Dune.
It was called Duck Dive.
21:27
Speaker 1
I actually know that restaurant, yeah.
21:29
Speaker 2
And there was a a good crew of guys in the kitchen, and we all just got really tight.
And I met one kid in there, Anthony Stagnaro, who's now actually the executive chef of another auberish property in Napa.
But we became really tight.
And just every day off we'd go cook and we'd practice what we wanted to do 'cause we were cooking other people's food.
21:50
Yeah.
And then, yeah, I just started to get good at it and hammered down and realized that this was like my my Ave. to be successful at something 'cause I was at that point 3031 and, you know, knew the clock was ticking.
22:07
So I I decided.
22:08
Speaker 1
You got dreams, got goals.
22:09
Speaker 2
Yeah, decided to just hammer down.
And then Maddie's is where it kind of all real, really changed.
I went from being a good cook to being a chef with the guys that were in that kitchen then.
22:21
Speaker 1
You know, you brought up kind of the, you know, Anthony Bourdain, God rest him, the kitchen confidential book that he read wrote great book, great book.
And one of the things I really enjoyed about that book when I read it a long, long time ago, which was, you know, the, the whole thought process of the kitchen is, is a pirate ship, right?
22:45
And it is people will either be lifers or it'll be just a job or you will feel the tools in your hand or this is what I took away from the book, right?
You feel the tools in your hand and say, I can, this is a weapon I can do something with.
And when you see passionate people find food, making that jump because I think one of the things about this valley just in general is if you're getting a bad meal in this valley, you're.
23:11
Speaker 2
You're.
23:12
Speaker 1
Blowing it, you know, between the brothers over at, at at Red Barn Clark up at full of life, you know, Pico, the the Barlacoa.
I mean, we have, we live in a town of or out, you know, we live in a town of 1000 people and there's two Michelin stars, which is a pretty unbelievable, right?
23:37
Every single restaurant in this valley, people are bringing a game, like a game, a game if even if at the top level.
And as you go through the people who are passionate about it really connect people.
And I think one of the themes of this show is community.
23:52
And community I think is so incredibly important where if you grow up in a place and you love your community, you give back.
And I see from your point of view and a lot of the other chefs that you know, Leonardo was awesome at it and still is where you'd like, Hey, how you doing?
24:08
You know, come to the table.
What are you doing?
Seeing what's happening everywhere around this industrial elites.
I mean, I'm just saying the things that are coming to mind.
But it was like you go in and when you sat down, somebody was like, I, I am going to wow you.
Like that's my job.
24:24
I I'm not you didn't come in for average.
You're not leaving with average.
We're going to we're going to bring the heat.
And I love the fact that Maddie's as a ownership of like a community, right?
And what you have done in the last How many years have you been head chef now?
24:42
Speaker 2
Just over a year, just since I took over.
Yeah, I've been back since September 2023, but I was chef to cuisine then and I took over as exec chef like last February 2025.
24:55
Speaker 1
And and I'm not disparaging anybody whatsoever, but when you got your hand on the wheel, something absolutely changed.
I mean, food wise, service wise, the level of expectation, the service, even to a certain level, the wouldn't how quickly food comes out, how good it is, how fresh it is, the ingredients that you're using, all of it.
25:18
I mean, just from me to you beginning to say this on the air honestly is like, oh wow, we, we've got one of us behind the behind the grill.
And I just wanted to say thank you for that.
25:28
Speaker 2
Because, well, thank you.
25:29
Speaker 1
I I hope, I hope, you know, that it is absolutely felt, or at least felt by me, right.
And I see the I see the effort that's going into it.
And it feels great to have a local kid, you know, kid, sorry, but like have one of us behind the back there, you know, making it for the community.
25:49
And I, I just wanted to say I really appreciated it.
Yeah.
Thank you.
What was that journey like for you?
25:54
Speaker 2
Well, as far as at Maddie's the second round here I.
25:58
Speaker 1
I mean, I, I know you gotta listen, I, I, I appreciate you gotta wear the corporate hat on this one, but.
26:05
Speaker 2
Well, I had actually been speaking to, like, as soon as Logan reached out to me and told me, you know, Auberge is coming in there and you should try and get a job, you should try and come back 'cause he, him and I talked a lot and he knew, he knew I always wanted to be at Maddie's and I wasn't gonna come back up here and work anywhere else.
26:23
Like no disrespect to any other restaurant, I just knew that I wanted to be in charge of Maddie.
26:28
Speaker 1
'S Hey, some people just want to wear a Yankees cap now I get it, I get.
26:31
Speaker 2
It I don't, I don't get the Yankees, but I know.
26:35
Speaker 1
I just recently became a Boston Red Sox fan because I know a guy who's pitching on the Red Sox, and I'm like, am I going to buy a Boston Red Sox hat?
Yeah, I'm in.
OK.
26:43
Speaker 2
All right, let's go.
So yeah, I came back.
I had been speaking to Rhoda before they had even opened, like when they just broke ground, you know, and I was doing my little burger thing that I was doing in LA and I was, that wasn't really for me.
27:00
And I was about to have the kids.
So I, I knew it was going to be time to come back up to the valley soon.
And then for whatever reason, it didn't really work out right then.
And then when I really did like exit my burger business, I was thinking about going to work with my friend Anthony at Stanley Ranch in Napa.
27:19
And he let me know that Rhoda was probably looking for chefs cuisine.
So I reached out to her and she said absolutely.
I came up to the tasting, got the job and came in and it was, you know, a business of that size.
27:35
There's always kinks to work out.
So I kind of felt like we were right when I got there. her and I were just trying to change the tires while the car was moving, you know, trying to figure it out, figure it out.
And meanwhile, I'm, I know that she's probably going to leave relatively soon.
27:50
It really wears you out opening a place like that.
It's hard Miles.
And she didn't have like a, a connection to the valley like I do.
So I was planning on filling in that spot when she left, but she left a little quicker than any of us had planned on.
28:05
So another guy came in from Napa and he was like dead set on doing everything the way he wanted to do it.
So I kind of got back burnered a little bit and just watched Tim not kill it.
28:21
I I guess would be the nice way to say it.
And yeah, we, we definitely had a little back and forth, me and that guy, but I knew he had an expiration date.
So even though I got pretty close to leaving a couple times in that period, I just wrote it out.
28:37
And then then he left and I had a meeting like, Hey, how do you feel about this?
And I was like, I'm already done.
I have a menu ready.
Like I was ready to go.
So did that.
I had to do a big tasting for her owners, some of the some of the big guys at the company and I think I made 160 something plates that night that were up from my new menu while we were running dinner service of our current menu.
29:07
So it was, yeah, it was a little chaotic.
I did have a buddy who came down from the Napa property that helped me out and he was like, I'm going to cook everything.
You're you're not going to have to cook.
You just go in the room and talk.
And then we got to hot courses and he was like, I need some help.
29:24
And we were, we were in it, but it was pretty cool.
Yeah, I kind of knocked it out of the park for the tasting.
And then and then we were rolling.
29:34
Supporting Local: Craftsmanship, Community, and Being Valley Strong
You know, everybody, this, this whole conversation that what we had today was, is I think it could be summed up by, you know, Kevin Malone is hungry and you're hungry for everything.
I mean, I've, I've known you a little while.
I've got to watch you work.
29:50
It doesn't seem, it seems like everything you do, you go all in.
I mean, moving across the country to, to pursue skiing, right.
And then doing what you got to do to, to succeed, You know, moving on from there to learning.
I mean, just anybody can swap out a car motor, just start there.
30:07
It means you know how know what to do with your hands and then get the job done.
And I am so happy that we have a place that we as a community love.
And back there in the kitchen is somebody who's working hard to feed his community.
30:25
And I just wanted to have you on just to kind of throw some flowers at you and, and put you in front of everybody and, and let, let everybody know, hey, back there, there's a local kid and he's going to do, do right by you.
So.
30:36
Speaker 2
Well, thank you.
30:37
Speaker 1
Thank you.
Appreciate it.
No, man, I I'm a I'm a big fan.
I'm cheering for you.
I hope you're here for.
I hope.
I hope your kids graduate from San Diego High School.
You know what I mean?
Yeah, I, I love the fact that no matter where you go in this valley, you can be fed, but it takes a very special place to feel connected to.
30:55
And if you're listening to this and you haven't been to Maddie's in a while, I would suggest, highly suggest that you go in, you get a burger and a beer, sit by the fire, put your feet up a little bit, stretch out and feel like you've been welcomed home.
31:10
And I think that's exactly what you're doing with every plate that you're pushing out there right now is you are absolutely welcoming a community back home and you're the right guy behind the grill, man.
Well, thank you.
I just wanted to say thank you very much.
I wanted to throw some flowers at you and.
31:25
Speaker 2
I appreciate it.
31:26
Speaker 1
Thank you everybody come come see you.
Hey everybody, this has been Keith Sarlos and you have been listening to chopping it up on one O 5.9 crazy country, one of the last independent radio stations in California.
Then I I can't say that more and more and more.
31:44
I've got to say it all the time, because in a world where corporatization and homogeny and aiming for the lowest common denominator seems to be happening more and more and more, you get to live in a valley where people really care about what they're doing.
32:02
They care about their craft, they care about their community, and they want to do right by it.
So if you see some litter out there, make sure you pick it up and put it into a trash can and spend a little bit time in the restaurant, spend a little bit time in the local grocery stores and coffee shops and wineries.
32:17
Support the locals.
I can't say that enough.
We live in a community.
Spend your money in the hood that support the radio advertisers here on Crazy Country.
Because without independent businesses, without independent people, without independent radio stations, everybody else gets to gets to decide what you listen to, what you eat and what you do.
32:41
And I think staying independent and staying Valley strong is something that we should all shoot for to leave a better environment for our kids and let them know that places like this still exists.
So Kevin, thanks for coming in today.
You've been listening to Crazy Country One O 5.9 back to your regularly scheduled programming.
Link to ashow and all info https://open.spotify.com/episode/3EMjMeRTa3wrZlYdfUNvUG
Episode 45: Dr. Kimberly Sheehan, Santa Ynez Valley High School, and Why Every Parent Needs to Hear This
In Episode 45 of Chopping It Up with Keith Saarloos, Keith sits down with Dr. Kimberly Sheehan, Superintendent of Santa Ynez Valley Union High School, for a conversation about education, community, leadership, and the future of the Santa Ynez Valley.
This is one of the most important episodes of Chopping It Up because it tackles a question every parent asks:
Are our kids going to be alright?
According to Dr. Sheehan, the answer is yes.
Not because things are easy.
Not because there aren't challenges.
But because there are still places where students are showing up, working hard, supporting one another, and becoming the kind of people every community hopes to produce.
Santa Ynez Valley Union High School is one of those places.
Throughout the conversation, Dr. Sheehan shares what makes the school unique and why she believes it is one of the best public high schools in California. From academics and athletics to agriculture, trades, arts, leadership programs, and community involvement, the school has become a model for what education can look like when students, parents, teachers, and the community all work together.
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Episode 45: Dr. Kimberly Sheehan, Santa Ynez Valley High School, and Why Every Parent Needs to Hear This
In Episode 45 of Chopping It Up with Keith Saarloos, Keith sits down with Dr. Kimberly Sheehan, Superintendent of Santa Ynez Valley Union High School, for a conversation about education, community, leadership, and the future of the Santa Ynez Valley.
This is one of the most important episodes of Chopping It Up because it tackles a question every parent asks:
Are our kids going to be alright?
According to Dr. Sheehan, the answer is yes.
Not because things are easy.
Not because there aren't challenges.
But because there are still places where students are showing up, working hard, supporting one another, and becoming the kind of people every community hopes to produce.
Santa Ynez Valley Union High School is one of those places.
Throughout the conversation, Dr. Sheehan shares what makes the school unique and why she believes it is one of the best public high schools in California. From academics and athletics to agriculture, trades, arts, leadership programs, and community involvement, the school has become a model for what education can look like when students, parents, teachers, and the community all work together.
Keith and Dr. Sheehan discuss the culture that exists on campus today. Students still look adults in the eye. They hold doors open. They support their classmates. They attend football games, theater productions, concerts, club meetings, and athletic events. They understand that success is not a competition where one person's victory requires another person's loss.
Instead, students are learning that communities succeed when people support one another.
One of the most surprising parts of the conversation is hearing how involved students are outside the classroom. Nearly 90 percent of students participate in activities, athletics, clubs, agriculture, performing arts, leadership organizations, and other programs that help them build friendships, confidence, and life skills.
The episode also highlights the academic success of Santa Ynez Valley Union High School, including Advanced Placement coursework, Allan Hancock College dual enrollment opportunities, career technical education pathways, and the school's recognition as a California Distinguished School.
Dr. Sheehan explains that college is not the only path to success. Students interested in welding, agriculture, mechanics, hospitality, construction, health sciences, information technology, and other skilled trades are finding meaningful opportunities through the school's expanding career technical education programs.
The conversation also explores the school's no-phone classroom policy, which has dramatically increased student engagement, reduced distractions, and encouraged students to reconnect with one another face-to-face.
Perhaps most importantly, this episode is a reminder that a strong community starts with strong schools.
When a community invests in its students, those students grow into adults who invest back into their community.
That cycle is on full display at Santa Ynez Valley Union High School.
If you're a parent, grandparent, teacher, coach, business owner, or simply someone who cares about the future of the Santa Ynez Valley, this episode is worth your time.
Because in a world filled with stories about what's broken, this is a story about what's working.
About Dr. Kimberly SheehanDr. Kimberly Sheehan serves as Superintendent of Santa Ynez Valley Union High School District and has quickly become one of the most respected educational leaders in Santa Barbara County.
Since arriving in the Santa Ynez Valley, she has focused on strengthening academics, expanding student opportunities, increasing accountability, improving student engagement, supporting career technical education, and building stronger connections between the school and the broader community.
Her vision is simple:
Create a school where every student can find a place to belong, discover their strengths, and graduate prepared for college, careers, and life.
Learn more:
In Episode 45 of Chopping It Up, Keith Saarloos sits down with Dr. Kimberly Sheehan, Superintendent of Santa Ynez Valley Union High School District, to discuss education, student success, community leadership, and the future of public education in California.
Santa Ynez Valley Union High School serves students throughout the Santa Ynez Valley, including the communities of Santa Ynez, Solvang, Buellton, Los Olivos, Ballard, Los Alamos, and surrounding areas.
School Website:
District Website:
During the conversation, Dr. Sheehan explains why Santa Ynez Valley Union High School has become one of the highest-performing public high schools in Santa Barbara County and one of the schools recognized as a California Distinguished School.
California Distinguished Schools Program:
The discussion explores academics, athletics, agriculture, trades education, Advanced Placement coursework, Allan Hancock College dual enrollment opportunities, Career Technical Education pathways, student leadership programs, performing arts, robotics, school culture, community engagement, and workforce development.
One of the most remarkable statistics discussed during the episode is that nearly 90 percent of students participate in activities outside the classroom. Students are involved in athletics, Future Farmers of America programs, performing arts, leadership organizations, clubs, agricultural education, trades programs, and community service activities.
The conversation highlights several Career Technical Education pathways available to students, including agriculture, welding, automotive technology, hospitality, transportation, health sciences, business, media arts, and emerging technology fields.
Career Technical Education Information:
Dr. Sheehan also discusses partnerships with Allan Hancock College, allowing students to earn college credit while attending high school.
Allan Hancock College:
https://www.hancockcollege.edu
Keith and Dr. Sheehan spend significant time discussing the importance of community involvement and the role parents, teachers, coaches, alumni, local businesses, foundations, and volunteers play in creating a successful educational environment.
The episode also explores the school's no-phone classroom policy, student accountability programs, tutoring initiatives, and efforts to prepare students for college, careers, military service, entrepreneurship, and skilled trades.
Throughout the discussion, Dr. Sheehan emphasizes a philosophy centered on responsibility, participation, respect, and opportunity.
The result is a school culture where students are encouraged to become not only successful graduates, but engaged citizens and future leaders.
For parents considering a move to the Santa Ynez Valley, families researching schools in Santa Barbara County, or community members interested in the future of local education, this episode provides a detailed look at one of California's most unique and successful public high schools.
Listen to the full episode:
https://open.spotify.com/episode/45JNgWCAV6O1zjyePAU9S6
More Episodes:
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Topics Covered
Topics Covered in This Episode
Dr. Kimberly Sheehan
Santa Ynez Valley Union High School
Public education in California
Why parents should be optimistic about the future
Student leadership
Pirate Pride
Friday Night Football
California Distinguished Schools
Advanced Placement programs
Allan Hancock College dual enrollment
Agriculture education
Welding programs
Career Technical Education
Skilled trades education
Automotive programs
Hospitality and restaurant management
Arts and theater programs
Information technology education
AI and future workforce preparation
Student accountability
No-phone classroom policies
Community involvement
Building future leaders
Raising kids in the Santa Ynez Valley
Why strong schools create strong communities
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FAQ
Frequently Asked Questions
Who is Dr. Kimberly Sheehan?
Dr. Kimberly Sheehan is the Superintendent of Santa Ynez Valley Union High School District and the educational leader responsible for overseeing Santa Ynez Valley Union High School.
What is Santa Ynez Valley Union High School known for?
Santa Ynez Valley Union High School is known for strong academics, athletics, agriculture programs, career technical education, community involvement, student leadership, and a culture that emphasizes responsibility, respect, and participation.
Is Santa Ynez Valley Union High School a California Distinguished School?
Yes. Santa Ynez Valley Union High School was recognized as a California Distinguished School, placing it among the top-performing schools in California.
What percentage of students participate in activities outside the classroom?
According to Dr. Sheehan, approximately 90 percent of students participate in athletics, clubs, arts, agriculture programs, leadership organizations, or other extracurricular activities.
Does Santa Ynez Valley Union High School offer trade programs?
Yes. Students can participate in agriculture, welding, automotive technology, hospitality, health sciences, and other Career Technical Education pathways designed to prepare students for skilled trades and workforce opportunities.
Does the school support students planning to attend college?
Absolutely. Students have access to Advanced Placement courses, dual enrollment opportunities through Allan Hancock College, academic support programs, tutoring services, and college preparation resources.
What is the school's phone policy?
Students are expected to keep phones out of use during instructional time. The policy has increased engagement, improved classroom focus, and reduced distractions.
Why is community involvement so important at Santa Ynez Valley Union High School?
The school believes that students thrive when they feel connected to something larger than themselves. Athletics, clubs, arts programs, agriculture, leadership activities, and community events help students build meaningful relationships and lifelong skills.
Why did Keith Saarloos want to feature Dr. Sheehan on Chopping It Up?
Because a healthy high school is one of the strongest indicators of a healthy community. Keith wanted listeners to hear firsthand about the students, teachers, families, and leaders who are helping shape the future of the Santa Ynez Valley.
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0:00
Introducing Kevin Malone, Executive Chef at Mattie's Tavern
Hey everybody, it's a Saturday at 10 AM and so that means it is time for chopping it up on one O 5.9 Crazy country.
This is Keith Sarlos, your host, winemaker, farmer, manabout town.
Today we have a very special guest, someone that you may know, may not know, but a local nonetheless.
0:20
His name is Kevin Malone.
Good morning, Kevin.
How are you doing?
0:23
Speaker 2
I'm good, I'm doing good.
0:24
Speaker 1
So for the record, tell us about what you do in the Valley.
0:28
Speaker 2
I am the executive chef at Maddie's Tavern.
It's now an auberge hotel, right?
So we have 57 rooms, 67 rooms, and I run the kitchen and the Tavern, all the banquets.
0:44
We do between 40 and 50 weddings a year.
The coffee shop, Felix's and all the food to the rooms, the pool, everything.
0:53
Speaker 1
If you're eating it or drinking it, you got it from Kevin.
Yes.
0:56
Mattie's Tavern: The Living Room of the Valley
So Kevin, I wanted to have you on for a few different reasons.
One, if I rollback time, you know, 2025 years ago, even further, right, The in at Maddie's Tavern, the bar, the restaurant has had a incredible history.
You mean it's gone through a bunch of different hands.
1:13
I mean, it was a chart house at one point, but I have always thought that the bar at Maddie's Tavern is responsible for maybe 25% of the people who live in this valley.
They went there and they saw that vibe, right?
They saw even back when JC was running it, even to today, right?
1:31
You go it, you would go in there and you go there two times and then they're remembering your drink.
You know, it was a it was a gathering place.
It is the living room of the Valley.
Because as I like to think about it, you know, you need two things in a community to succeed.
1:47
You need a really great coffee shop and you need a really great pub.
And Maddie's Tavern for me has always been that in a few different ways.
Specifically the bar, because I remember going in there when it was dark and everything else and and the fire was rolling and there was even smoke in the room and the whole deal, right?
2:05
Speaker 2
Yeah, there's still smoke in the.
2:06
Speaker 1
Room.
There's still smoke in the room and we've had Logan on here talking about kind of old days at Maddie's.
But one of the things I wanted to do was kind of bring you up front from back, behind the behind the grill, you know, behind the the the pit and bring you out on front St. because you and I have become friends over the years.
2:23
And I have seen your rise from and, and jump in at any point from just working at Maddie's to being AI.
What I would like to consider a local that is the executive chef, Yeah.
2:37
Kevin Malone's Unexpected Path to Mattie's Tavern
How did you start?
What was your journey there?
2:40
Speaker 2
When I first started at Maddie's, I was working in LA kind of at a restaurant that for lack of a better explanation, I was kind of like too, too good to be at.
2:56
And I had a friend who had left who was working with me at that restaurant.
He left and started working at this crazy restaurant in LA called Inc.
And he he sent me an ad for a cooking, I don't remember if the ad was for like a sous chef or a line cook job.
3:14
And just like the description in the ad made Maddie sound so cool.
It sounded like culinary summer camp.
So I responded to the ad, came up and stayed in cabin one, which is now Oak.
Stayed there for a couple days and worked in the kitchen.
3:30
And I went from being like working in a place where I was the the only guy with the brain to being the worst one in the kitchen.
And immediately I was like, this is the spot I need to be.
So tried to surround myself with guys who are way better than me and.
3:44
Speaker 1
How many years ago was this?
3:46
Speaker 2
That was in 2015 I believe. 14 or 15 pre COVID?
Pre COVID when Charles Banks and Robbie Wilson owned the place and then.
4:01
Speaker 1
Which was an interesting era for the Maddie's.
4:03
Speaker 2
Tavern, yeah, I mean, it was I I like to describe it as we were a little too early for the valley.
Like the food was incredible.
The stuff we were doing in the kitchen was so cool and like, everything from scratch, everything local.
4:18
We were like butchering whole animals.
And the kitchen was brand new at the time.
And I just, I like, fell in love with the place.
It was so, so cool.
And I was there with Logan and me and Logan we're like quick friends and got really tight.
And yeah, it was just a little too early.
4:35
Everybody thought we were to LA.
But now, now all the restaurants are a lot similar to what we were doing then.
4:42
Speaker 1
Well, you know, skating where the puck is going is always different.
You know, if you're if you're true early, you're a martyr.
And if you're right on time, then all of a sudden you're like, hey, this is exactly what I want, right?
Yeah, totally.
You've done a lot of really interesting stuff there that I mean, specifically the burger and the like.
4:59
Crafting Mattie's Menu: Balancing Luxury and Local Authenticity
I'm, I'm a big bar guy, right?
It's like I love bars just in general.
And your burger is fantastic, man.
You have, as Logan says, you have a black belt in burgers.
5:09
Speaker 2
Yeah, I heard that that was pretty.
5:10
Speaker 1
Cool.
That's a pretty great line.
So tell us a little bit about the menu you got going on there.
5:14
Speaker 2
Right in the bar specifically, like that's, that's what I wanted.
I wanted to like hit all the the classic things that people look for when they go into a bar.
Chicken sandwich, a burger, you know, I got the steak frites back on there now, couple salads, but just, you know, that that heavy comfort stuff and just kind of do it really, really well.
5:34
Yeah, we were sort of missing that for a while when I first came back.
I came back in 2023 and Rhoda was there and she was doing really good considering like we're opening a restaurant and a hotel.
And when you're new at Maddie's, it's really hard to understand the the ownership that everyone in the Valley has for that place.
5:57
Speaker 1
I am so glad you brought that up because I think that's one of the things that is almost endemic of what Maddie's is like when I kind of brought up like how many people live in the valley just because of that living room setting or that pub setting or the bar setting at Maddie's, right?
6:14
They feel like they own it.
And, you know, even back when when they changed it a bunch and, and changed the bar and people like, immediately it felt like people were like, well, I'm not going there anymore.
And they just like cut it off a list.
But I thought what you guys have done so great over there and that whole team of like, really great people, you know, was you brought the old bar back and then all of a sudden it, it felt like going home.
6:35
Yeah.
6:36
Speaker 2
I I think that's, that's something that was a little missed when a Berish first came, you know, like they, it's this high luxury resort.
And the cool thing about Auberge is a lot of the properties are these like pre-existing old places and they kind of let them be themselves.
6:54
But having been closed for a while and, you know, going from Charles to Bryan and, and not really having too much going on in between the the like identity, culinary identity of the place was sort of missing.
So that was a, a big goal of mine when I took over last year was to get that back and find our, our lane and.
7:15
Speaker 1
That's exactly why you're here today because I think you've done an Absolutely Fabulous job of bringing back that ownership of like the community ownership back to a restaurant where they come in, they go, oh, this feels like the way it used to.
And you go in and bartenders kind of remember your drink and you'd like, you know, knew exactly the way you want it.
7:34
And it's like, oh, this, this is better than eating at home.
And I just wanted to commend you for that.
Well, thank you for seeing it.
I mean, and that's the part of you that I want to talk about even more 'cause I think one of the least interesting things about you is the fact that you're the head chef at Maddie's.
7:50
But I think you guys have done a great job as being a community location.
I mean, I didn't know much about Orbearish resorts.
That's not usually where me I personally stay, you know, just.
7:59
Speaker 2
As Me neither, yeah.
8:01
Speaker 1
But I've had the opportunity to go to a few 'cause when it became an orbearish, I went to a friend's wedding in Colorado and there was a a hotel that it's I'm.
8:12
Speaker 2
Going to blow it the Telluride one.
8:14
Speaker 1
No, the Aspen one.
8:15
Speaker 2
OK.
That's Jerome.
Jerome.
8:16
Speaker 1
And that's where Hunter S Thompson, you know, had his bar or that he would go to that bar every single day.
And when you go in there, you're like, oh, this feels more like a part of the community than it is a standard hotel where they build a hotel and it just looks like that hotel.
8:32
Totally.
Does that make sense?
Yeah, I've.
8:34
Speaker 2
I've worked for a few different hotel brands, like I, I worked at Rosewood in San Martin up by Gilroy and I worked at Four Seasons in Montecito and like, they're all great.
But that was one of the things that like, keeps me at Auberge is that like, we get to be our own little unique place where you're not just like a cookie cutter.
8:54
Oh, this is an Auberge.
8:56
Speaker 1
You know, and Hampton Inn looks like a Hampton Inn.
8:58
Speaker 2
Yeah, exactly.
And and you know, obviously I have like a really strong connection with Maddie's.
So it just turned out to be an auberge.
I only came back to the valley to be at Maddie's so.
9:08
Speaker 1
Did you really?
9:09
Speaker 2
Yes.
9:10
Speaker 1
So you chose that.
9:11
Speaker 2
Yes, I did.
9:13
Speaker 1
Well, then I think the ownership aspect of like you taking that over and going, no, I want to come back to this place because I could say this off to the side and nobody was listening.
So it's just me and you, which was, you know, the the pride that you do take in that place.
9:29
Like you kind of opened the door there a second ago, but you're like, no, I want to be the head chef at this restaurant.
And as someone who loves the restaurant and loves this community, that's exactly what you want from anybody.
It's like, no, no, no, this feels like my hometown and I want to be the head chef in my hometown.
9:47
And I think that's one of the things that you personify that it maybe you haven't been to Maddie's in a while.
Maybe definitely give it another shot and go get a burger, get a fried chicken sandwich, you know, go in the bar and feel it out again, 'cause I think you brought back that old feeling from 20 years ago with a little bit of a uptick in culinary and, and, and exploration and it feels like home.
10:12
And I think you've done a great job.
10:13
Speaker 2
Of that well, thank you.
That's that's where I, I want it to be.
I, I mean, obviously we have expectations being an auberish that are, you know, a little, a little higher than your local neighborhood bar and it's a really fine line to dance.
10:29
And that's what I'm constantly trying to do, figure out how I can have it be comfortable for people like you and, you know, other locals, but at the same time, like, keep that person who's spending a lot of money to be there all weekend, keep them happy and feel like they're getting value out of it.
10:43
Speaker 1
I think that's a really tough line to cross and you you do it really well where local feels welcome and somebody who's pretending to be local for the weekend.
I think it's a good way to because I.
10:53
Speaker 2
Fresh hat from Jed Liquors.
Fresh out rolling in, I don't.
10:57
Speaker 1
Know you could.
You could spot them a while away.
10:59
From Professional Skier to Rally Car Mechanic: Kevin's Diverse Passions
You're like, hey, it's on backwards, let's transition a little bit because like I said, you are an incredibly interesting person.
So professional skier at one point, is this correct?
11:10
Speaker 2
Yeah, my life revolved around skiing for a long time.
11:14
Speaker 1
Tell me stories man, because I have seen videos of you if you look, I mean if you look you up online right now on YouTube, there are videos of you backflipping highways, is that correct?
11:25
Speaker 2
Maybe I don't.
I don't look at them often, but there's some stuff floating around from the old.
11:30
Speaker 1
Days you were legit man.
11:31
Speaker 2
Yeah, I Yeah.
So right after high school, I.
11:35
Speaker 1
Where'd you go to high?
11:36
Speaker 2
School by then I went to high school in Massachusetts.
OK, So I grew up in western Massachusetts in a small town a lot like, you know, Los Alamos or Los Olivos, where I live now.
And I all as much as like, you know, you grow up in a small town in high school and stuff, you're like, man, I wish I was around more people.
11:53
And you know you want to, you want to go do something more interesting.
11:56
Speaker 1
Nobody wants to be where they are.
Yeah, totally.
11:58
Speaker 2
So as soon as high school was over, I I was really, really, really into skiing.
Like I I got into it around 1998, nineteen 99 and it just like I got the bug and fell in love with it and mammoth was like the place to be if you were hit and jumped on skis like that was the coolest place to be.
12:19
So it is the.
12:20
Speaker 1
Bleeding edge it still is.
12:21
Speaker 2
Yeah, it's the best.
So I I moved to Mammoth on a Greyhound bus, left Massachusetts on a Greyhound bus, took me 5 days with one of my best friends and I got crazy stories from the bus, but that would take all day.
And then we, yeah, we, we got to Reno, had some friends of friends pick us up and.
12:41
And then I ended up living there for about 12 or 13 years.
Really.
Yeah.
12:45
Speaker 1
Where'd you work in Rena?
Where'd you work in Mammoth?
12:48
Speaker 2
I cooked a little bit when I first got there.
Like cooking in me was a love hate thing for a long time.
My dad cooked and he he was always working three jobs when I was a kid and wasn't able to be around much.
But I picked it up from him.
So it was like he told me when I was a kid.
13:04
He's like, you'll never, you'll never be hungry if you're working in the kitchen and you'll, you know, you'll always have a job if you know how to cook.
So it was always the fall back gig.
So right when I got to Mammoth, I got a job as a janitor, which was pretty cool.
I didn't work until 4:00 at in the afternoon every day.
13:21
So I got to ski every single day and then quickly got out of that and got into the restaurants and was cooking a little bit.
But I wanted to be in a snow cat.
I thought that was the coolest thing there was.
It still is, yeah.
13:35
Speaker 1
It's heavy machinery is awesome.
It was cool.
Come on.
Yeah.
13:38
Speaker 2
So eventually I got myself into a snow cat and did that for a couple seasons working fleet, which is where you're just grooming the trails.
And then after two or three seasons I started building park.
So then I was working in the park, building jumps and setting up rails and stuff and.
13:54
Speaker 1
Were you running the dragon?
13:55
Speaker 2
No, no dragon.
OK, I was.
That's a deep.
13:57
Speaker 1
Cut for everybody's listing.
13:59
Speaker 2
To be totally honest, I was not super good in the Snow Cat but the boys liked having me around 'cause I hit all the jumps where none of them.
14:06
Speaker 1
You were building them for yourself.
14:07
Speaker 2
Yeah, none of them really did.
So the guys building the big jumps would ask me to come hop in the cat and tell them what I thought.
And yeah, so that was, that was cool.
That enabled me to keep skiing.
And yeah, I did that for a long, long time.
It was awesome.
14:22
Speaker 1
OK, so skiing we're going to get we're I'm going to, we're going to put this all together.
This is going to be a good story.
Another passion of yours is cars.
14:31
Speaker 2
Yep, so.
14:32
Speaker 1
Let's hear about it, because I know you just got back from something super awesome.
Tell me the whole.
14:36
Speaker 2
Story Yeah, I just went on a a three day rally in Parkfield.
What?
14:41
Speaker 1
Kind of cars specifically.
14:42
Speaker 2
I like 80s and 90s Audis and Volkswagens.
So I have a 1990 Golf GTI and a 1981 Rabbit pickup truck and I took the pickup truck on this rally and about two weeks before the rally started I found out my motor was blown in the truck.
15:03
So I was in a little bit of a time crunch the the GTI was definitely not going to be ready and as crazy as it sounds, it was easier for me to put in.
15:12
Speaker 1
A motor.
So all project cars, yeah.
15:14
Speaker 2
OK, they're it's it's a 30 or 40 year olds.
15:17
Speaker 1
Car.
No, no, it's always a project.
I know.
I'm just painting the picture for everybody who's listening at home.
15:21
Speaker 2
So yeah, I went and got a picked up a motor that a buddy had sitting in his garage for about a decade and every night after work started working on that motor and kind of halfway rebuilt it.
I didn't tear it open, but I replaced the all the maintenance stuff, cleaned it up, made it fresh, took all the good parts off my old one, put it on the new one, pulled the old one out of the car, put the new one in the car, And I got it ready at around noon on Wednesday and then left for the rally at 10 in the morning on Thursday.
15:55
Speaker 1
So OK, two things.
What time do you get off work?
15:58
Speaker 2
Between 9:30 and 10:00 at night, so.
16:02
Speaker 1
What time?
So what time in the morning were you working on this?
16:04
Speaker 2
We're doing like, I go home, do the little couch, chat with the missus every night and then hop in the garage.
Yeah, talking about the kids.
And then pretty much between 10:00 and 2:00 in the morning.
I was working on the car for two weeks to get it ready.
16:19
Speaker 1
OK, so you finished this thing.
How long was this rally?
16:23
Speaker 2
Probably about 1000 miles.
16:25
Speaker 1
1000 miles.
So you you wait, wait, wait.
You motor swapped your truck, finished it on a Wednesday.
Thursday started a rally for 1000 miles.
Yeah, in a Volkswagen.
16:38
Speaker 2
Rabbit pickup.
16:39
Speaker 1
Truck Rabbit pickup truck How many cars were on the rally?
16:42
Speaker 2
I think about 60 or 70.
16:45
Speaker 1
Pretty big rally though.
Yeah, cool.
We see, I mean, the cool part about being in the Valley, you can there's a lot of rallies that are coming through and all of a sudden you'll see like like 50 Datsuns or you'll see like, but when it's.
16:56
Speaker 2
Always 9 elevens.
There's just 1,000,009.
16:58
Speaker 1
Elevens 1,000,009 Elevens.
I always love the running of the bulls when all of a sudden you're sitting on 154 and, you know, mowing or something like that.
And then all of a sudden like 50 lambos just RIP through.
Yep.
And then I'm like, Oh my gosh, when Cash was a little kid, I we, we were sitting there and I think it was Pelican or quail.
17:16
Speaker 2
When all for the quail.
17:17
Speaker 1
For the quail.
So when everybody's driving up to Monterey and we were sitting on the corner and all these incredible supercars come by, right?
And then I'm not going to say his name, but this guy drove, drove by in a flatbed and was kind of in, in between all of them.
17:32
And I looked at Cash and I said, you want me to show you the guy who's got the most money in that line?
And he goes, yeah.
And I said it's the flatbed truck.
And he's like, really?
I'm like, 100%, man, just so you know, just so you know.
And he's like, oh, really?
I'm like, yeah, I go once for show, once for go.
I said the flatbeds for go.
17:48
Speaker 2
It's cool to see him driving.
It's those cars, you know, a lot of those guys just keep him in a heated garage and don't drive.
17:54
Speaker 1
I mean, if you die with a low odometer, you know you lost.
Yeah, that's the truth.
So where did the rally go?
18:00
Speaker 2
So it was in Parkfield.
We started in Cayucas and then drove out to Parkfield day one and stayed there.
So it was like a camping rally.
So we camped out at Parkfield Cafe.
If anybody doesn't know where Parkfield is, it's like 45 minutes east of Is it Santa Margarita up there just north of Paso?
18:20
Yeah.
And it's in the middle of nowhere.
There's like a population of 18.
It's this one family owns like 250,000 acres and it's super super.
18:27
Speaker 1
It's kind of like going to Gary.
Yeah, Yeah.
Like where's Gary?
Yeah, there he is.
18:32
Speaker 2
Very similar, yeah.
And then we just camped out there and just ripped back roads for three days and came back every night and hung out.
18:40
Speaker 1
That's fantastic.
18:41
Speaker 2
Yeah, it was super cool.
18:42
Speaker 1
OK, so.
18:44
Speaker 2
And car did great.
I had a couple things wiggle loose, you know, bolts it I needed to retorque but.
18:50
Speaker 1
If you can swap an engine in a in a week after work I'm I think you'll be fine.
18:55
Speaker 2
Yeah, it was all good.
Everything was good right at home.
18:58
Speaker 1
Skiing, cars.
19:00
Kevin Malone's 'All-In' Philosophy and Reclaiming Mattie's Soul
Anything else we should know about you?
What else are you passionate about?
I mean, your pet.
That's the.
I think that would be a great theme for you.
I mean, it's like the you don't do anything halfway.
Yeah, I.
19:10
Speaker 2
Go all in.
Usually you go all.
I like something.
19:12
Speaker 1
And and a perfectionist.
19:14
Speaker 2
I mean I have my kids, I love my kids.
I have twins, boy, girl twins that are about to be 4.
So between them, the car work and the wife, I don't even have much time for skiing anymore.
It's a pretty full life.
Yeah, pretty full.
19:28
Speaker 1
But I'd never see you without a smile on your face, so that's pretty good.
19:31
Speaker 2
Yeah, you just catch me on the good.
19:33
Speaker 1
Day.
That's true.
You put it on?
Yeah.
19:36
Speaker 2
I do try my best to get out and say hi to everybody in the.
19:38
Speaker 1
Restaurant so which I also think is a very, very smart move if you live in this valley.
Restaurants have been made and lost on the chef walking out and going.
How you doing?
Yeah, you know, it's like, oh, the chef knows who I am.
I'm coming back to this place, right.
19:54
Totally.
It is a that's a five star move as far as anybody.
19:57
Speaker 2
Goes.
I learned that from Drew Terp.
19:59
Speaker 1
Really.
20:00
Speaker 2
You know, I used to work with at Maddie's and then was the opening chef at Pico in Los Alamos.
That's that's something I learned from him.
He always made sure to go out and say hi to everybody.
20:10
Speaker 1
You are a local boy through and through, man.
So let me go back to food a little bit.
You brought up a a very nice humble brag, which I really appreciate.
You're like, I was too good for this restaurant, you know?
When did you catch the bug and how did you grab hold of you and what was your kind of process and and your progression?
20:29
Speaker 2
There was, it's a little wonky.
Like there was a point when I was in Mammoth and I wasn't really skiing anymore, but I was still there.
I wasn't really sure what I was doing.
Snow cats were cool, but I was never going to be like real life successful being in the snow cat.
20:45
Like I said, I wasn't very good at it, but it it was cool to kill the time and I didn't want to be one of those guys who was fifty with no knees, you know, renting an overpriced crappy apartment in Mammoth.
And I didn't want to be that guy.
And then my dad actually passed away on the East Coast.
21:01
Sorry to hear that.
And I.
21:02
Speaker 1
It's a it's a terrible club.
21:04
Speaker 2
Yeah, it's, you know, everybody, everybody's got to do it.
It's part of life.
You know, it is a terrible club.
So I was a little, I was a little shaken up when that happened.
I didn't really know what to do.
So I decided to just try to try out the cooking thing, see if I liked it.
21:19
And I moved to LA and ended up in this little, little restaurant in Malibu that isn't there anymore.
It was in Point Dune.
It was called Duck Dive.
21:27
Speaker 1
I actually know that restaurant, yeah.
21:29
Speaker 2
And there was a a good crew of guys in the kitchen, and we all just got really tight.
And I met one kid in there, Anthony Stagnaro, who's now actually the executive chef of another auberish property in Napa.
But we became really tight.
And just every day off we'd go cook and we'd practice what we wanted to do 'cause we were cooking other people's food.
21:50
Yeah.
And then, yeah, I just started to get good at it and hammered down and realized that this was like my my Ave. to be successful at something 'cause I was at that point 3031 and, you know, knew the clock was ticking.
22:07
So I I decided.
22:08
Speaker 1
You got dreams, got goals.
22:09
Speaker 2
Yeah, decided to just hammer down.
And then Maddie's is where it kind of all real, really changed.
I went from being a good cook to being a chef with the guys that were in that kitchen then.
22:21
Speaker 1
You know, you brought up kind of the, you know, Anthony Bourdain, God rest him, the kitchen confidential book that he read wrote great book, great book.
And one of the things I really enjoyed about that book when I read it a long, long time ago, which was, you know, the, the whole thought process of the kitchen is, is a pirate ship, right?
22:45
And it is people will either be lifers or it'll be just a job or you will feel the tools in your hand or this is what I took away from the book, right?
You feel the tools in your hand and say, I can, this is a weapon I can do something with.
And when you see passionate people find food, making that jump because I think one of the things about this valley just in general is if you're getting a bad meal in this valley, you're.
23:11
Speaker 2
You're.
23:12
Speaker 1
Blowing it, you know, between the brothers over at, at at Red Barn Clark up at full of life, you know, Pico, the the Barlacoa.
I mean, we have, we live in a town of or out, you know, we live in a town of 1000 people and there's two Michelin stars, which is a pretty unbelievable, right?
23:37
Every single restaurant in this valley, people are bringing a game, like a game, a game if even if at the top level.
And as you go through the people who are passionate about it really connect people.
And I think one of the themes of this show is community.
23:52
And community I think is so incredibly important where if you grow up in a place and you love your community, you give back.
And I see from your point of view and a lot of the other chefs that you know, Leonardo was awesome at it and still is where you'd like, Hey, how you doing?
24:08
You know, come to the table.
What are you doing?
Seeing what's happening everywhere around this industrial elites.
I mean, I'm just saying the things that are coming to mind.
But it was like you go in and when you sat down, somebody was like, I, I am going to wow you.
Like that's my job.
24:24
I I'm not you didn't come in for average.
You're not leaving with average.
We're going to we're going to bring the heat.
And I love the fact that Maddie's as a ownership of like a community, right?
And what you have done in the last How many years have you been head chef now?
24:42
Speaker 2
Just over a year, just since I took over.
Yeah, I've been back since September 2023, but I was chef to cuisine then and I took over as exec chef like last February 2025.
24:55
Speaker 1
And and I'm not disparaging anybody whatsoever, but when you got your hand on the wheel, something absolutely changed.
I mean, food wise, service wise, the level of expectation, the service, even to a certain level, the wouldn't how quickly food comes out, how good it is, how fresh it is, the ingredients that you're using, all of it.
25:18
I mean, just from me to you beginning to say this on the air honestly is like, oh wow, we, we've got one of us behind the behind the grill.
And I just wanted to say thank you for that.
25:28
Speaker 2
Because, well, thank you.
25:29
Speaker 1
I I hope, I hope, you know, that it is absolutely felt, or at least felt by me, right.
And I see the I see the effort that's going into it.
And it feels great to have a local kid, you know, kid, sorry, but like have one of us behind the back there, you know, making it for the community.
25:49
And I, I just wanted to say I really appreciated it.
Yeah.
Thank you.
What was that journey like for you?
25:54
Speaker 2
Well, as far as at Maddie's the second round here I.
25:58
Speaker 1
I mean, I, I know you gotta listen, I, I, I appreciate you gotta wear the corporate hat on this one, but.
26:05
Speaker 2
Well, I had actually been speaking to, like, as soon as Logan reached out to me and told me, you know, Auberge is coming in there and you should try and get a job, you should try and come back 'cause he, him and I talked a lot and he knew, he knew I always wanted to be at Maddie's and I wasn't gonna come back up here and work anywhere else.
26:23
Like no disrespect to any other restaurant, I just knew that I wanted to be in charge of Maddie.
26:28
Speaker 1
'S Hey, some people just want to wear a Yankees cap now I get it, I get.
26:31
Speaker 2
It I don't, I don't get the Yankees, but I know.
26:35
Speaker 1
I just recently became a Boston Red Sox fan because I know a guy who's pitching on the Red Sox, and I'm like, am I going to buy a Boston Red Sox hat?
Yeah, I'm in.
OK.
26:43
Speaker 2
All right, let's go.
So yeah, I came back.
I had been speaking to Rhoda before they had even opened, like when they just broke ground, you know, and I was doing my little burger thing that I was doing in LA and I was, that wasn't really for me.
27:00
And I was about to have the kids.
So I, I knew it was going to be time to come back up to the valley soon.
And then for whatever reason, it didn't really work out right then.
And then when I really did like exit my burger business, I was thinking about going to work with my friend Anthony at Stanley Ranch in Napa.
27:19
And he let me know that Rhoda was probably looking for chefs cuisine.
So I reached out to her and she said absolutely.
I came up to the tasting, got the job and came in and it was, you know, a business of that size.
27:35
There's always kinks to work out.
So I kind of felt like we were right when I got there. her and I were just trying to change the tires while the car was moving, you know, trying to figure it out, figure it out.
And meanwhile, I'm, I know that she's probably going to leave relatively soon.
27:50
It really wears you out opening a place like that.
It's hard Miles.
And she didn't have like a, a connection to the valley like I do.
So I was planning on filling in that spot when she left, but she left a little quicker than any of us had planned on.
28:05
So another guy came in from Napa and he was like dead set on doing everything the way he wanted to do it.
So I kind of got back burnered a little bit and just watched Tim not kill it.
28:21
I I guess would be the nice way to say it.
And yeah, we, we definitely had a little back and forth, me and that guy, but I knew he had an expiration date.
So even though I got pretty close to leaving a couple times in that period, I just wrote it out.
28:37
And then then he left and I had a meeting like, Hey, how do you feel about this?
And I was like, I'm already done.
I have a menu ready.
Like I was ready to go.
So did that.
I had to do a big tasting for her owners, some of the some of the big guys at the company and I think I made 160 something plates that night that were up from my new menu while we were running dinner service of our current menu.
29:07
So it was, yeah, it was a little chaotic.
I did have a buddy who came down from the Napa property that helped me out and he was like, I'm going to cook everything.
You're you're not going to have to cook.
You just go in the room and talk.
And then we got to hot courses and he was like, I need some help.
29:24
And we were, we were in it, but it was pretty cool.
Yeah, I kind of knocked it out of the park for the tasting.
And then and then we were rolling.
29:34
Supporting Local: Craftsmanship, Community, and Being Valley Strong
You know, everybody, this, this whole conversation that what we had today was, is I think it could be summed up by, you know, Kevin Malone is hungry and you're hungry for everything.
I mean, I've, I've known you a little while.
I've got to watch you work.
29:50
It doesn't seem, it seems like everything you do, you go all in.
I mean, moving across the country to, to pursue skiing, right.
And then doing what you got to do to, to succeed, You know, moving on from there to learning.
I mean, just anybody can swap out a car motor, just start there.
30:07
It means you know how know what to do with your hands and then get the job done.
And I am so happy that we have a place that we as a community love.
And back there in the kitchen is somebody who's working hard to feed his community.
30:25
And I just wanted to have you on just to kind of throw some flowers at you and, and put you in front of everybody and, and let, let everybody know, hey, back there, there's a local kid and he's going to do, do right by you.
So.
30:36
Speaker 2
Well, thank you.
30:37
Speaker 1
Thank you.
Appreciate it.
No, man, I I'm a I'm a big fan.
I'm cheering for you.
I hope you're here for.
I hope.
I hope your kids graduate from San Diego High School.
You know what I mean?
Yeah, I, I love the fact that no matter where you go in this valley, you can be fed, but it takes a very special place to feel connected to.
30:55
And if you're listening to this and you haven't been to Maddie's in a while, I would suggest, highly suggest that you go in, you get a burger and a beer, sit by the fire, put your feet up a little bit, stretch out and feel like you've been welcomed home.
31:10
And I think that's exactly what you're doing with every plate that you're pushing out there right now is you are absolutely welcoming a community back home and you're the right guy behind the grill, man.
Well, thank you.
I just wanted to say thank you very much.
I wanted to throw some flowers at you and.
31:25
Speaker 2
I appreciate it.
31:26
Speaker 1
Thank you everybody come come see you.
Hey everybody, this has been Keith Sarlos and you have been listening to chopping it up on one O 5.9 crazy country, one of the last independent radio stations in California.
Then I I can't say that more and more and more.
31:44
I've got to say it all the time, because in a world where corporatization and homogeny and aiming for the lowest common denominator seems to be happening more and more and more, you get to live in a valley where people really care about what they're doing.
32:02
They care about their craft, they care about their community, and they want to do right by it.
So if you see some litter out there, make sure you pick it up and put it into a trash can and spend a little bit time in the restaurant, spend a little bit time in the local grocery stores and coffee shops and wineries.
32:17
Support the locals.
I can't say that enough.
We live in a community.
Spend your money in the hood that support the radio advertisers here on Crazy Country.
Because without independent businesses, without independent people, without independent radio stations, everybody else gets to gets to decide what you listen to, what you eat and what you do.
32:41
And I think staying independent and staying Valley strong is something that we should all shoot for to leave a better environment for our kids and let them know that places like this still exists.
So Kevin, thanks for coming in today.
You've been listening to Crazy Country One O 5.9 back to your regularly scheduled programming.
Link to ashow and all info https://open.spotify.com/episode/3EMjMeRTa3wrZlYdfUNvUG
Episode 44: Andrew Coffin, The Reagan Ranch, Rancho del Cielo, and the Leadership Legacy of Ronald Reagan
In Episode 44 of Chopping It Up with Keith Saarloos, Keith sits down with Andrew Coffin, Vice President of Young America’s Foundation and Director of the Reagan Ranch, for a conversation about Rancho del Cielo, Ronald Reagan’s beloved ranch in the mountains above Santa Barbara and the Santa Ynez Valley.
This episode explores the ranch Ronald Reagan called his “open cathedral,” a quiet 688-acre property where he cleared brush, built fences, rode horses, prayed, thought, and prepared to return to the pressures of national and world leadership.
Keith and Andrew discuss why Rancho del Cielo still matters today, not only as a presidential property, but as a living character study of Ronald Reagan himself. The modest 1,800-square-foot home, the difficult road to the top of the mountain, the hand-built fences, the Psalm 121 overlook, the ranch tools, the Western landscape, and the simplicity of the place all reveal something deeper than politics.
The conversation also explores Young America’s Foundation, the Reagan Ranch Center in Santa Barbara, student programs, open debate, conservative ideas, leadership formation, and the importance of giving young people access to real history, real places, and real conversations.
This is not just an episode about Ronald Reagan.
It is about character, clarity, faith, leadership, hard work, humility, patriotism, and the kind of legacy that still speaks.
Listen to the episode:
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In Episode 44 of Chopping It Up with Keith Saarloos, Keith sits down with Andrew Coffin, Vice President of Young America’s Foundation and Director of the Reagan Ranch, for a conversation about Ronald Reagan, Rancho del Cielo, the Santa Ynez Valley, American leadership, student formation, and the lasting power of place.
Andrew Coffin has spent decades helping preserve, protect, and interpret the Reagan Ranch. He serves as Vice President of Young America’s Foundation and Director of the Reagan Ranch Center. His work is tied directly to one of the most important presidential properties in the United States: Rancho del Cielo, Ronald Reagan’s ranch in the mountains above Santa Barbara, California.
Andrew Coffin:
https://yaf.org/people/andrew-coffin/
Young America’s Foundation:
Reagan Ranch Center:
https://yaf.org/reagan-ranch-center/
Rancho del Cielo is often called the Reagan Ranch or the Western White House. Located above the Santa Ynez Valley and Santa Barbara, the ranch was purchased by Ronald Reagan in 1974 while he was still Governor of California. Reagan loved the land immediately. The drive to the top is difficult, winding, and remote, but once visitors arrive, the property opens into a quiet mountain landscape that feels set apart from the world below.
Ronald Reagan and Rancho del Cielo:
https://www.reaganlibrary.gov/reagans/ronald-reagan/rancho-del-cielo
Keith and Andrew discuss the remarkable humility of the ranch house itself. For many people, the most surprising part of visiting Rancho del Cielo is not the view, the history, or the security infrastructure. It is the house. Ronald Reagan, the 40th President of the United States and leader of the free world, spent much of his private life in a home of roughly 1,800 square feet. It was not a mansion. It was not a palace. It was modest, simple, practical, and deeply personal.
Andrew explains that the original central portion of the home was built in 1872 by José Jesús Pico and that the Reagans made only modest changes to the property. There was no great show of wealth. No excess. No staged presidential grandeur. The house reflected the man. It was simple, useful, and authentic.
That authenticity becomes one of the central themes of the episode.
Keith and Andrew talk about how Ronald Reagan used the ranch not as an escape from responsibility, but as a place to prepare himself to return to it. Reagan rode horses, cleared brush, cut wood, maintained trails, and built fences from decommissioned telephone poles. He did not simply pose for photographs doing ranch work. He actually did the work.
This matters because it reveals something important about leadership. At Rancho del Cielo, Reagan was not performing an image. He was living a rhythm. Physical labor helped him think. The land helped him reset. The work helped him return to Washington with clarity.
Andrew describes conversations with Secret Service agents, military aides, family members, and others who saw Reagan in his most private moments. Their testimony reinforces the same point: there was no hidden version of Ronald Reagan that contradicted the public one. At the ranch, what people saw was what they got.
The conversation also focuses on the spiritual meaning of the ranch. Reagan often referred to Rancho del Cielo as his “open cathedral.” One of the most powerful locations on the ranch is the Psalm 121 overlook, named for the biblical passage Reagan quoted when asked why the ranch mattered so deeply to him. The ranch was a place of stillness, prayer, perspective, and gratitude.
Psalm 121:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm%20121&version=KJV
Keith and Andrew discuss how the ranch connects directly to the Santa Ynez Valley. Ronald Reagan was not just a national figure who happened to own property in the area. He was woven into local life. He attended church in the valley, voted in Solvang, went to local restaurants, visited the movies, rode the land, and became part of the story of Santa Barbara County and the Santa Ynez Mountains.
The episode also highlights the Reagan Ranch Center in downtown Santa Barbara. The Reagan Ranch Center is operated by Young America’s Foundation and is located near the Santa Barbara train station at 217 State Street. It includes exhibits, artifacts, a section of the Berlin Wall, Reagan Ranch materials, presidential history, and educational programming connected to Ronald Reagan’s life and ideas.
Reagan Ranch Center:
https://yaf.org/reagan-ranch-center/
Ronald Reagan Presidential Library:
https://www.reaganlibrary.gov/
A major part of the conversation centers on Young America’s Foundation and its mission to bring students into contact with conservative ideas, American history, free enterprise, constitutional principles, leadership training, and open debate. Andrew explains that Young America’s Foundation has a long history connected to Ronald Reagan and continues to bring high school, college, and middle school students to programs at the Reagan Ranch and Reagan Ranch Center.
Young America’s Foundation Student Programs:
Reagan Ranch Events:
https://yaf.org/thereagan/reagan-ranch-events/
Keith and Andrew discuss why students respond so strongly to Rancho del Cielo. Many young people arrive knowing Ronald Reagan only as a historical name. But when they walk into the home, see the modest bedroom, stand beside the fences he built, visit the ranch roads he rode, and hear the stories of how he lived, they encounter something real. They see leadership without excess. Power without arrogance. Conviction without performance.
The episode also explores one of the most important parts of Young America’s Foundation programming: the open microphone. At YAF events, students are encouraged to ask questions, challenge speakers, think through ideas, and participate in real debate. Andrew explains that speakers are expected to leave time for questions because students need to learn how to engage ideas, not simply repeat slogans.
Keith and Andrew talk about how rare and necessary that is in modern culture. In an age of social media, algorithms, outrage, and quick reactions, young people need spaces where they can ask real questions, hear competing ideas, and learn how to think clearly.
YAF TV:
https://www.youtube.com/user/YAFTV
The conversation touches on the Berlin Wall, the Cold War, freedom, communism, fascism, liberty, and the importance of remembering history clearly. At the Reagan Ranch Center, visitors can see a section of the Berlin Wall, a physical reminder of the divide between freedom and oppression that shaped so much of Reagan’s presidency.
Ronald Reagan Berlin Wall Speech:
https://www.reaganlibrary.gov/archives/speech/remarks-brandenburg-gate-west-berlin
The episode also discusses cultural memory, patriotism, and the danger of forgetting what previous generations endured. Keith reflects on visiting Normandy, seeing the Berlin Wall, and understanding that freedom is not abstract. It is defended, preserved, and passed on.
More than anything, this episode is about legacy.
Not image.
Not nostalgia.
Not political marketing.
Legacy.
The kind of legacy found in a simple home, a hard day’s work, a quiet prayer, a fence post set by hand, and a leader who knew that clarity often comes when the noise is far below you.
Andrew Coffin’s work at the Reagan Ranch is not simply about preserving buildings or artifacts. It is about preserving lessons. Lessons about leadership, humility, faith, conviction, patriotism, free debate, and the responsibility of passing ideas to the next generation.
This conversation makes the case that Rancho del Cielo is one of the most important presidential sites in America, not because it is grand, but because it is true.
Listen to Episode 44:
https://open.spotify.com/episode/3Xqa2pQyiPxZyvbBCyMyOy
Chopping It Up Podcast Archive:
https://saarloosandsons.com/sscopod
Saarloos & Sons:
Related Links and Resources
Andrew Coffin, Vice President of Young America’s Foundation and Director of the Reagan Ranch Center
https://yaf.org/people/andrew-coffin/
Young America’s Foundation
Reagan Ranch Center
https://yaf.org/reagan-ranch-center/
Ronald Reagan and Rancho del Cielo
https://www.reaganlibrary.gov/reagans/ronald-reagan/rancho-del-cielo
Ronald Reagan Presidential Library
https://www.reaganlibrary.gov/
Young America’s Foundation Events
Reagan Ranch Events
https://yaf.org/thereagan/reagan-ranch-events/
YAF TV on YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/user/YAFTV
Ronald Reagan Berlin Wall Speech
https://www.reaganlibrary.gov/archives/speech/remarks-brandenburg-gate-west-berlin
Psalm 121
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm%20121&version=KJV
Chopping It Up Podcast Archive
https://saarloosandsons.com/sscopod
Saarloos & Sons
Listen to Episode 44 on Spotify
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Topics Covered
Andrew Coffin
Young America’s Foundation
Reagan Ranch Center
Rancho del Cielo
The Reagan Ranch
Ronald Reagan
Ronald Reagan’s Western White House
Ronald Reagan and the Santa Ynez Valley
Ronald Reagan in Santa Barbara County
Ronald Reagan Presidential Library
Ronald Reagan’s ranch house
Ronald Reagan’s 1,800-square-foot home
Ronald Reagan as Governor of California
Ronald Reagan as President of the United States
Rancho del Cielo history
Rancho del Cielo meaning
Ranch of the heavens
Ranch in the sky
Ronald Reagan’s open cathedral
Psalm 121 overlook
Ronald Reagan and faith
Ronald Reagan and prayer
Ronald Reagan and hard work
Ronald Reagan building fences
Ronald Reagan clearing brush
Ronald Reagan horseback riding
Secret Service at Rancho del Cielo
Air Force One and the Reagan Ranch
Reagan Ranch helipad
Reagan Ranch trails
Reagan Ranch landscape
Santa Ynez Mountains
Santa Ynez Valley history
Santa Barbara history
Presidential sites in California
Presidential homes
American presidential history
Mount Vernon
Monticello
Western White House
The Berlin Wall
Berlin Wall section in Santa Barbara
Ronald Reagan’s Berlin Wall speech
Tear down this wall
Cold War history
Freedom vs communism
American patriotism
American leadership
Conservative leadership
Conservative education
Conservative student programs
High school student leadership
College student leadership
Middle school student programs
Free marketplace of ideas
Open debate
Civil discourse
Student Q&A
Campus debate
Political ideas on college campuses
William F. Buckley Jr.
Young America’s Foundation history
YAF student conferences
Reagan Ranch student conferences
YAF TV
Leadership training
Character formation
Faith and leadership
Humility and leadership
Hard work and leadership
Authentic leadership
Legacy vs image
Social media and authenticity
Teaching young people to think
American history education
Preserving history
Presidential legacy
Reagan country
Chopping It Up with Keith Saarloos
Keith Saarloos
Saarloos & Sons
Santa Ynez Valley podcast
Santa Barbara podcast
California history podcast
Leadership podcast
Conservative podcast
American history podcast
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Frequently Asked Questions
Who is Andrew Coffin?
Andrew Coffin is Vice President of Young America’s Foundation and Director of the Reagan Ranch Center. He has spent decades working with Young America’s Foundation to preserve Rancho del Cielo, operate the Reagan Ranch Center, and support student programs connected to Ronald Reagan’s ideas and legacy.
Andrew Coffin:
https://yaf.org/people/andrew-coffin/
What is Rancho del Cielo?
Rancho del Cielo is Ronald Reagan’s former ranch in the mountains above Santa Barbara and the Santa Ynez Valley. It is often called the Reagan Ranch or the Western White House. Reagan purchased the property in 1974 and spent much of his private time there before, during, and after his presidency.
Ronald Reagan and Rancho del Cielo:
https://www.reaganlibrary.gov/reagans/ronald-reagan/rancho-del-cielo
What does Rancho del Cielo mean?
Rancho del Cielo is Spanish for “Ranch of the Heavens” or “Ranch in the Sky.” The name reflects the ranch’s location high in the Santa Ynez Mountains above Santa Barbara and the Santa Ynez Valley.
Where is the Reagan Ranch located?
The Reagan Ranch is located in the Santa Ynez Mountains above Santa Barbara, California. It sits above the Santa Ynez Valley and was Ronald Reagan’s private ranch and Western White House.
Can the public visit Rancho del Cielo?
Rancho del Cielo itself is preserved by Young America’s Foundation and is not generally open as a normal public tourist site. However, students, supporters, and guests may visit through Young America’s Foundation programs and special events.
Young America’s Foundation Events:
Reagan Ranch Events:
https://yaf.org/thereagan/reagan-ranch-events/
What is the Reagan Ranch Center?
The Reagan Ranch Center is a museum, educational center, and student program facility operated by Young America’s Foundation in downtown Santa Barbara. It is located at 217 State Street near the Santa Barbara train station and includes exhibits about Ronald Reagan, Rancho del Cielo, the Cold War, the Berlin Wall, and American leadership.
Reagan Ranch Center:
https://yaf.org/reagan-ranch-center/
Where is the Reagan Ranch Center located?
The Reagan Ranch Center is located at:
217 State Street
Santa Barbara, California 93101More information:
https://yaf.org/reagan-ranch-center/
What is Young America’s Foundation?
Young America’s Foundation, often called YAF, is a national conservative youth organization that provides student conferences, campus speakers, educational programs, leadership training, and resources for young people interested in conservative ideas, free enterprise, American history, constitutional principles, and public debate.
Young America’s Foundation:
How is Young America’s Foundation connected to Ronald Reagan?
Ronald Reagan had a long relationship with Young America’s Foundation. YAF later purchased and preserved Rancho del Cielo, Reagan’s beloved ranch, and now uses the property and Reagan Ranch Center to educate students about Reagan’s ideas, leadership, and legacy.
Young America’s Foundation and Ronald Reagan:
Why did Ronald Reagan love Rancho del Cielo?
Ronald Reagan loved Rancho del Cielo because it gave him space for reflection, prayer, physical work, horseback riding, and clarity. He called the ranch his “open cathedral” and used time there to restore himself before returning to the demands of public life.
What was Ronald Reagan’s home at Rancho del Cielo like?
Ronald Reagan’s ranch home was modest, simple, and roughly 1,800 square feet. It was not a mansion. It reflected Reagan’s personal humility and practical nature. The home included simple furnishings, modest rooms, and a private environment where Reagan and Nancy Reagan lived away from the public eye.
Did Ronald Reagan really build fences at the ranch?
Yes. Ronald Reagan spent time at Rancho del Cielo clearing brush, cutting wood, maintaining trails, riding horses, and building fences. Andrew Coffin explains in this episode that Reagan’s ranch work was not a staged photo opportunity. It was how he actually spent his time and how he restored his mind.
What is the Psalm 121 overlook?
The Psalm 121 overlook is a location at the Reagan Ranch associated with Reagan’s spiritual connection to the land. Reagan quoted Psalm 121 when asked why the ranch mattered to him: “I lift up mine eyes unto the hills, from whence cometh my help.”
Psalm 121:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm%20121&version=KJV
Why did Ronald Reagan call the ranch his open cathedral?
Ronald Reagan called Rancho del Cielo his “open cathedral” because he experienced the ranch as a place of prayer, peace, gratitude, and spiritual renewal. The land, mountains, views, and quiet gave him perspective.
What does the Reagan Ranch teach students today?
The Reagan Ranch teaches students about leadership, humility, hard work, faith, character, patriotism, free enterprise, American history, and the importance of clear thinking. Young America’s Foundation uses the ranch as a living classroom for students.
What is the open microphone at Young America’s Foundation events?
At Young America’s Foundation events, speakers are expected to take questions from students. The open microphone allows students to ask real questions, challenge ideas, test arguments, and participate in civil debate.
Why is open debate important in this episode?
Keith Saarloos and Andrew Coffin discuss open debate as one of the most important parts of a healthy society. Instead of shutting down disagreement, students should learn how to ask questions, think clearly, listen, argue respectfully, and search for truth.
What is YAF TV?
YAF TV is Young America’s Foundation’s YouTube channel, where viewers can watch speeches, student events, interviews, debates, and educational content from YAF programs.
YAF TV:
https://www.youtube.com/user/YAFTV
What is the Berlin Wall exhibit at the Reagan Ranch Center?
The Reagan Ranch Center in Santa Barbara includes a large section of the Berlin Wall. It serves as a physical reminder of the Cold War, the divide between freedom and communism, and Ronald Reagan’s role in confronting Soviet power.
Ronald Reagan Berlin Wall Speech:
https://www.reaganlibrary.gov/archives/speech/remarks-brandenburg-gate-west-berlin
Why does the Berlin Wall matter in Ronald Reagan’s legacy?
The Berlin Wall became one of the most visible symbols of communist oppression during the Cold War. Reagan’s 1987 speech at the Brandenburg Gate, where he challenged Mikhail Gorbachev to “tear down this wall,” remains one of the defining moments of his presidency.
What is the Reagan Ranch’s connection to Santa Barbara?
The Reagan Ranch is located in the mountains above Santa Barbara, and the Reagan Ranch Center is located in downtown Santa Barbara. Ronald Reagan’s life at Rancho del Cielo connects Santa Barbara County directly to American presidential history.
What is the Reagan Ranch’s connection to the Santa Ynez Valley?
Rancho del Cielo overlooks the Santa Ynez Valley, and Ronald Reagan spent time in the valley during his years at the ranch. The ranch is part of the local history of Santa Barbara County, the Santa Ynez Mountains, and the communities below it.
Why is Rancho del Cielo compared to Mount Vernon and Monticello?
Rancho del Cielo is compared to Mount Vernon and Monticello because it reveals the private character of an American president. Like George Washington’s Mount Vernon and Thomas Jefferson’s Monticello, Reagan’s ranch helps people understand the man behind the office.
What is this episode of Chopping It Up about?
This episode is about Andrew Coffin, Young America’s Foundation, the Reagan Ranch, Rancho del Cielo, Ronald Reagan, leadership, student programs, free debate, faith, humility, patriotism, and the lasting legacy of a place that shaped one of America’s most important presidents.
Why should people listen to this episode?
People should listen to this episode because it explains why Rancho del Cielo still matters. It is not simply a ranch or a museum. It is a place that helps people understand Ronald Reagan’s character, leadership, faith, discipline, humility, and influence on future generations.
Where can I listen to Episode 44 with Andrew Coffin?
You can listen to Episode 44 of Chopping It Up with Keith Saarloos on Spotify here:
https://open.spotify.com/episode/3Xqa2pQyiPxZyvbBCyMyOy
Where can I find more Chopping It Up episodes?
You can find more episodes of Chopping It Up with Keith Saarloos here:
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0:00
Introducing Kevin Malone, Executive Chef at Mattie's Tavern
Hey everybody, it's a Saturday at 10 AM and so that means it is time for chopping it up on one O 5.9 Crazy country.
This is Keith Sarlos, your host, winemaker, farmer, manabout town.
Today we have a very special guest, someone that you may know, may not know, but a local nonetheless.
0:20
His name is Kevin Malone.
Good morning, Kevin.
How are you doing?
0:23
Speaker 2
I'm good, I'm doing good.
0:24
Speaker 1
So for the record, tell us about what you do in the Valley.
0:28
Speaker 2
I am the executive chef at Maddie's Tavern.
It's now an auberge hotel, right?
So we have 57 rooms, 67 rooms, and I run the kitchen and the Tavern, all the banquets.
0:44
We do between 40 and 50 weddings a year.
The coffee shop, Felix's and all the food to the rooms, the pool, everything.
0:53
Speaker 1
If you're eating it or drinking it, you got it from Kevin.
Yes.
0:56
Mattie's Tavern: The Living Room of the Valley
So Kevin, I wanted to have you on for a few different reasons.
One, if I rollback time, you know, 2025 years ago, even further, right, The in at Maddie's Tavern, the bar, the restaurant has had a incredible history.
You mean it's gone through a bunch of different hands.
1:13
I mean, it was a chart house at one point, but I have always thought that the bar at Maddie's Tavern is responsible for maybe 25% of the people who live in this valley.
They went there and they saw that vibe, right?
They saw even back when JC was running it, even to today, right?
1:31
You go it, you would go in there and you go there two times and then they're remembering your drink.
You know, it was a it was a gathering place.
It is the living room of the Valley.
Because as I like to think about it, you know, you need two things in a community to succeed.
1:47
You need a really great coffee shop and you need a really great pub.
And Maddie's Tavern for me has always been that in a few different ways.
Specifically the bar, because I remember going in there when it was dark and everything else and and the fire was rolling and there was even smoke in the room and the whole deal, right?
2:05
Speaker 2
Yeah, there's still smoke in the.
2:06
Speaker 1
Room.
There's still smoke in the room and we've had Logan on here talking about kind of old days at Maddie's.
But one of the things I wanted to do was kind of bring you up front from back, behind the behind the grill, you know, behind the the the pit and bring you out on front St. because you and I have become friends over the years.
2:23
And I have seen your rise from and, and jump in at any point from just working at Maddie's to being AI.
What I would like to consider a local that is the executive chef, Yeah.
2:37
Kevin Malone's Unexpected Path to Mattie's Tavern
How did you start?
What was your journey there?
2:40
Speaker 2
When I first started at Maddie's, I was working in LA kind of at a restaurant that for lack of a better explanation, I was kind of like too, too good to be at.
2:56
And I had a friend who had left who was working with me at that restaurant.
He left and started working at this crazy restaurant in LA called Inc.
And he he sent me an ad for a cooking, I don't remember if the ad was for like a sous chef or a line cook job.
3:14
And just like the description in the ad made Maddie sound so cool.
It sounded like culinary summer camp.
So I responded to the ad, came up and stayed in cabin one, which is now Oak.
Stayed there for a couple days and worked in the kitchen.
3:30
And I went from being like working in a place where I was the the only guy with the brain to being the worst one in the kitchen.
And immediately I was like, this is the spot I need to be.
So tried to surround myself with guys who are way better than me and.
3:44
Speaker 1
How many years ago was this?
3:46
Speaker 2
That was in 2015 I believe. 14 or 15 pre COVID?
Pre COVID when Charles Banks and Robbie Wilson owned the place and then.
4:01
Speaker 1
Which was an interesting era for the Maddie's.
4:03
Speaker 2
Tavern, yeah, I mean, it was I I like to describe it as we were a little too early for the valley.
Like the food was incredible.
The stuff we were doing in the kitchen was so cool and like, everything from scratch, everything local.
4:18
We were like butchering whole animals.
And the kitchen was brand new at the time.
And I just, I like, fell in love with the place.
It was so, so cool.
And I was there with Logan and me and Logan we're like quick friends and got really tight.
And yeah, it was just a little too early.
4:35
Everybody thought we were to LA.
But now, now all the restaurants are a lot similar to what we were doing then.
4:42
Speaker 1
Well, you know, skating where the puck is going is always different.
You know, if you're if you're true early, you're a martyr.
And if you're right on time, then all of a sudden you're like, hey, this is exactly what I want, right?
Yeah, totally.
You've done a lot of really interesting stuff there that I mean, specifically the burger and the like.
4:59
Crafting Mattie's Menu: Balancing Luxury and Local Authenticity
I'm, I'm a big bar guy, right?
It's like I love bars just in general.
And your burger is fantastic, man.
You have, as Logan says, you have a black belt in burgers.
5:09
Speaker 2
Yeah, I heard that that was pretty.
5:10
Speaker 1
Cool.
That's a pretty great line.
So tell us a little bit about the menu you got going on there.
5:14
Speaker 2
Right in the bar specifically, like that's, that's what I wanted.
I wanted to like hit all the the classic things that people look for when they go into a bar.
Chicken sandwich, a burger, you know, I got the steak frites back on there now, couple salads, but just, you know, that that heavy comfort stuff and just kind of do it really, really well.
5:34
Yeah, we were sort of missing that for a while when I first came back.
I came back in 2023 and Rhoda was there and she was doing really good considering like we're opening a restaurant and a hotel.
And when you're new at Maddie's, it's really hard to understand the the ownership that everyone in the Valley has for that place.
5:57
Speaker 1
I am so glad you brought that up because I think that's one of the things that is almost endemic of what Maddie's is like when I kind of brought up like how many people live in the valley just because of that living room setting or that pub setting or the bar setting at Maddie's, right?
6:14
They feel like they own it.
And, you know, even back when when they changed it a bunch and, and changed the bar and people like, immediately it felt like people were like, well, I'm not going there anymore.
And they just like cut it off a list.
But I thought what you guys have done so great over there and that whole team of like, really great people, you know, was you brought the old bar back and then all of a sudden it, it felt like going home.
6:35
Yeah.
6:36
Speaker 2
I I think that's, that's something that was a little missed when a Berish first came, you know, like they, it's this high luxury resort.
And the cool thing about Auberge is a lot of the properties are these like pre-existing old places and they kind of let them be themselves.
6:54
But having been closed for a while and, you know, going from Charles to Bryan and, and not really having too much going on in between the the like identity, culinary identity of the place was sort of missing.
So that was a, a big goal of mine when I took over last year was to get that back and find our, our lane and.
7:15
Speaker 1
That's exactly why you're here today because I think you've done an Absolutely Fabulous job of bringing back that ownership of like the community ownership back to a restaurant where they come in, they go, oh, this feels like the way it used to.
And you go in and bartenders kind of remember your drink and you'd like, you know, knew exactly the way you want it.
7:34
And it's like, oh, this, this is better than eating at home.
And I just wanted to commend you for that.
Well, thank you for seeing it.
I mean, and that's the part of you that I want to talk about even more 'cause I think one of the least interesting things about you is the fact that you're the head chef at Maddie's.
7:50
But I think you guys have done a great job as being a community location.
I mean, I didn't know much about Orbearish resorts.
That's not usually where me I personally stay, you know, just.
7:59
Speaker 2
As Me neither, yeah.
8:01
Speaker 1
But I've had the opportunity to go to a few 'cause when it became an orbearish, I went to a friend's wedding in Colorado and there was a a hotel that it's I'm.
8:12
Speaker 2
Going to blow it the Telluride one.
8:14
Speaker 1
No, the Aspen one.
8:15
Speaker 2
OK.
That's Jerome.
Jerome.
8:16
Speaker 1
And that's where Hunter S Thompson, you know, had his bar or that he would go to that bar every single day.
And when you go in there, you're like, oh, this feels more like a part of the community than it is a standard hotel where they build a hotel and it just looks like that hotel.
8:32
Totally.
Does that make sense?
Yeah, I've.
8:34
Speaker 2
I've worked for a few different hotel brands, like I, I worked at Rosewood in San Martin up by Gilroy and I worked at Four Seasons in Montecito and like, they're all great.
But that was one of the things that like, keeps me at Auberge is that like, we get to be our own little unique place where you're not just like a cookie cutter.
8:54
Oh, this is an Auberge.
8:56
Speaker 1
You know, and Hampton Inn looks like a Hampton Inn.
8:58
Speaker 2
Yeah, exactly.
And and you know, obviously I have like a really strong connection with Maddie's.
So it just turned out to be an auberge.
I only came back to the valley to be at Maddie's so.
9:08
Speaker 1
Did you really?
9:09
Speaker 2
Yes.
9:10
Speaker 1
So you chose that.
9:11
Speaker 2
Yes, I did.
9:13
Speaker 1
Well, then I think the ownership aspect of like you taking that over and going, no, I want to come back to this place because I could say this off to the side and nobody was listening.
So it's just me and you, which was, you know, the the pride that you do take in that place.
9:29
Like you kind of opened the door there a second ago, but you're like, no, I want to be the head chef at this restaurant.
And as someone who loves the restaurant and loves this community, that's exactly what you want from anybody.
It's like, no, no, no, this feels like my hometown and I want to be the head chef in my hometown.
9:47
And I think that's one of the things that you personify that it maybe you haven't been to Maddie's in a while.
Maybe definitely give it another shot and go get a burger, get a fried chicken sandwich, you know, go in the bar and feel it out again, 'cause I think you brought back that old feeling from 20 years ago with a little bit of a uptick in culinary and, and, and exploration and it feels like home.
10:12
And I think you've done a great job.
10:13
Speaker 2
Of that well, thank you.
That's that's where I, I want it to be.
I, I mean, obviously we have expectations being an auberish that are, you know, a little, a little higher than your local neighborhood bar and it's a really fine line to dance.
10:29
And that's what I'm constantly trying to do, figure out how I can have it be comfortable for people like you and, you know, other locals, but at the same time, like, keep that person who's spending a lot of money to be there all weekend, keep them happy and feel like they're getting value out of it.
10:43
Speaker 1
I think that's a really tough line to cross and you you do it really well where local feels welcome and somebody who's pretending to be local for the weekend.
I think it's a good way to because I.
10:53
Speaker 2
Fresh hat from Jed Liquors.
Fresh out rolling in, I don't.
10:57
Speaker 1
Know you could.
You could spot them a while away.
10:59
From Professional Skier to Rally Car Mechanic: Kevin's Diverse Passions
You're like, hey, it's on backwards, let's transition a little bit because like I said, you are an incredibly interesting person.
So professional skier at one point, is this correct?
11:10
Speaker 2
Yeah, my life revolved around skiing for a long time.
11:14
Speaker 1
Tell me stories man, because I have seen videos of you if you look, I mean if you look you up online right now on YouTube, there are videos of you backflipping highways, is that correct?
11:25
Speaker 2
Maybe I don't.
I don't look at them often, but there's some stuff floating around from the old.
11:30
Speaker 1
Days you were legit man.
11:31
Speaker 2
Yeah, I Yeah.
So right after high school, I.
11:35
Speaker 1
Where'd you go to high?
11:36
Speaker 2
School by then I went to high school in Massachusetts.
OK, So I grew up in western Massachusetts in a small town a lot like, you know, Los Alamos or Los Olivos, where I live now.
And I all as much as like, you know, you grow up in a small town in high school and stuff, you're like, man, I wish I was around more people.
11:53
And you know you want to, you want to go do something more interesting.
11:56
Speaker 1
Nobody wants to be where they are.
Yeah, totally.
11:58
Speaker 2
So as soon as high school was over, I I was really, really, really into skiing.
Like I I got into it around 1998, nineteen 99 and it just like I got the bug and fell in love with it and mammoth was like the place to be if you were hit and jumped on skis like that was the coolest place to be.
12:19
So it is the.
12:20
Speaker 1
Bleeding edge it still is.
12:21
Speaker 2
Yeah, it's the best.
So I I moved to Mammoth on a Greyhound bus, left Massachusetts on a Greyhound bus, took me 5 days with one of my best friends and I got crazy stories from the bus, but that would take all day.
And then we, yeah, we, we got to Reno, had some friends of friends pick us up and.
12:41
And then I ended up living there for about 12 or 13 years.
Really.
Yeah.
12:45
Speaker 1
Where'd you work in Rena?
Where'd you work in Mammoth?
12:48
Speaker 2
I cooked a little bit when I first got there.
Like cooking in me was a love hate thing for a long time.
My dad cooked and he he was always working three jobs when I was a kid and wasn't able to be around much.
But I picked it up from him.
So it was like he told me when I was a kid.
13:04
He's like, you'll never, you'll never be hungry if you're working in the kitchen and you'll, you know, you'll always have a job if you know how to cook.
So it was always the fall back gig.
So right when I got to Mammoth, I got a job as a janitor, which was pretty cool.
I didn't work until 4:00 at in the afternoon every day.
13:21
So I got to ski every single day and then quickly got out of that and got into the restaurants and was cooking a little bit.
But I wanted to be in a snow cat.
I thought that was the coolest thing there was.
It still is, yeah.
13:35
Speaker 1
It's heavy machinery is awesome.
It was cool.
Come on.
Yeah.
13:38
Speaker 2
So eventually I got myself into a snow cat and did that for a couple seasons working fleet, which is where you're just grooming the trails.
And then after two or three seasons I started building park.
So then I was working in the park, building jumps and setting up rails and stuff and.
13:54
Speaker 1
Were you running the dragon?
13:55
Speaker 2
No, no dragon.
OK, I was.
That's a deep.
13:57
Speaker 1
Cut for everybody's listing.
13:59
Speaker 2
To be totally honest, I was not super good in the Snow Cat but the boys liked having me around 'cause I hit all the jumps where none of them.
14:06
Speaker 1
You were building them for yourself.
14:07
Speaker 2
Yeah, none of them really did.
So the guys building the big jumps would ask me to come hop in the cat and tell them what I thought.
And yeah, so that was, that was cool.
That enabled me to keep skiing.
And yeah, I did that for a long, long time.
It was awesome.
14:22
Speaker 1
OK, so skiing we're going to get we're I'm going to, we're going to put this all together.
This is going to be a good story.
Another passion of yours is cars.
14:31
Speaker 2
Yep, so.
14:32
Speaker 1
Let's hear about it, because I know you just got back from something super awesome.
Tell me the whole.
14:36
Speaker 2
Story Yeah, I just went on a a three day rally in Parkfield.
What?
14:41
Speaker 1
Kind of cars specifically.
14:42
Speaker 2
I like 80s and 90s Audis and Volkswagens.
So I have a 1990 Golf GTI and a 1981 Rabbit pickup truck and I took the pickup truck on this rally and about two weeks before the rally started I found out my motor was blown in the truck.
15:03
So I was in a little bit of a time crunch the the GTI was definitely not going to be ready and as crazy as it sounds, it was easier for me to put in.
15:12
Speaker 1
A motor.
So all project cars, yeah.
15:14
Speaker 2
OK, they're it's it's a 30 or 40 year olds.
15:17
Speaker 1
Car.
No, no, it's always a project.
I know.
I'm just painting the picture for everybody who's listening at home.
15:21
Speaker 2
So yeah, I went and got a picked up a motor that a buddy had sitting in his garage for about a decade and every night after work started working on that motor and kind of halfway rebuilt it.
I didn't tear it open, but I replaced the all the maintenance stuff, cleaned it up, made it fresh, took all the good parts off my old one, put it on the new one, pulled the old one out of the car, put the new one in the car, And I got it ready at around noon on Wednesday and then left for the rally at 10 in the morning on Thursday.
15:55
Speaker 1
So OK, two things.
What time do you get off work?
15:58
Speaker 2
Between 9:30 and 10:00 at night, so.
16:02
Speaker 1
What time?
So what time in the morning were you working on this?
16:04
Speaker 2
We're doing like, I go home, do the little couch, chat with the missus every night and then hop in the garage.
Yeah, talking about the kids.
And then pretty much between 10:00 and 2:00 in the morning.
I was working on the car for two weeks to get it ready.
16:19
Speaker 1
OK, so you finished this thing.
How long was this rally?
16:23
Speaker 2
Probably about 1000 miles.
16:25
Speaker 1
1000 miles.
So you you wait, wait, wait.
You motor swapped your truck, finished it on a Wednesday.
Thursday started a rally for 1000 miles.
Yeah, in a Volkswagen.
16:38
Speaker 2
Rabbit pickup.
16:39
Speaker 1
Truck Rabbit pickup truck How many cars were on the rally?
16:42
Speaker 2
I think about 60 or 70.
16:45
Speaker 1
Pretty big rally though.
Yeah, cool.
We see, I mean, the cool part about being in the Valley, you can there's a lot of rallies that are coming through and all of a sudden you'll see like like 50 Datsuns or you'll see like, but when it's.
16:56
Speaker 2
Always 9 elevens.
There's just 1,000,009.
16:58
Speaker 1
Elevens 1,000,009 Elevens.
I always love the running of the bulls when all of a sudden you're sitting on 154 and, you know, mowing or something like that.
And then all of a sudden like 50 lambos just RIP through.
Yep.
And then I'm like, Oh my gosh, when Cash was a little kid, I we, we were sitting there and I think it was Pelican or quail.
17:16
Speaker 2
When all for the quail.
17:17
Speaker 1
For the quail.
So when everybody's driving up to Monterey and we were sitting on the corner and all these incredible supercars come by, right?
And then I'm not going to say his name, but this guy drove, drove by in a flatbed and was kind of in, in between all of them.
17:32
And I looked at Cash and I said, you want me to show you the guy who's got the most money in that line?
And he goes, yeah.
And I said it's the flatbed truck.
And he's like, really?
I'm like, 100%, man, just so you know, just so you know.
And he's like, oh, really?
I'm like, yeah, I go once for show, once for go.
I said the flatbeds for go.
17:48
Speaker 2
It's cool to see him driving.
It's those cars, you know, a lot of those guys just keep him in a heated garage and don't drive.
17:54
Speaker 1
I mean, if you die with a low odometer, you know you lost.
Yeah, that's the truth.
So where did the rally go?
18:00
Speaker 2
So it was in Parkfield.
We started in Cayucas and then drove out to Parkfield day one and stayed there.
So it was like a camping rally.
So we camped out at Parkfield Cafe.
If anybody doesn't know where Parkfield is, it's like 45 minutes east of Is it Santa Margarita up there just north of Paso?
18:20
Yeah.
And it's in the middle of nowhere.
There's like a population of 18.
It's this one family owns like 250,000 acres and it's super super.
18:27
Speaker 1
It's kind of like going to Gary.
Yeah, Yeah.
Like where's Gary?
Yeah, there he is.
18:32
Speaker 2
Very similar, yeah.
And then we just camped out there and just ripped back roads for three days and came back every night and hung out.
18:40
Speaker 1
That's fantastic.
18:41
Speaker 2
Yeah, it was super cool.
18:42
Speaker 1
OK, so.
18:44
Speaker 2
And car did great.
I had a couple things wiggle loose, you know, bolts it I needed to retorque but.
18:50
Speaker 1
If you can swap an engine in a in a week after work I'm I think you'll be fine.
18:55
Speaker 2
Yeah, it was all good.
Everything was good right at home.
18:58
Speaker 1
Skiing, cars.
19:00
Kevin Malone's 'All-In' Philosophy and Reclaiming Mattie's Soul
Anything else we should know about you?
What else are you passionate about?
I mean, your pet.
That's the.
I think that would be a great theme for you.
I mean, it's like the you don't do anything halfway.
Yeah, I.
19:10
Speaker 2
Go all in.
Usually you go all.
I like something.
19:12
Speaker 1
And and a perfectionist.
19:14
Speaker 2
I mean I have my kids, I love my kids.
I have twins, boy, girl twins that are about to be 4.
So between them, the car work and the wife, I don't even have much time for skiing anymore.
It's a pretty full life.
Yeah, pretty full.
19:28
Speaker 1
But I'd never see you without a smile on your face, so that's pretty good.
19:31
Speaker 2
Yeah, you just catch me on the good.
19:33
Speaker 1
Day.
That's true.
You put it on?
Yeah.
19:36
Speaker 2
I do try my best to get out and say hi to everybody in the.
19:38
Speaker 1
Restaurant so which I also think is a very, very smart move if you live in this valley.
Restaurants have been made and lost on the chef walking out and going.
How you doing?
Yeah, you know, it's like, oh, the chef knows who I am.
I'm coming back to this place, right.
19:54
Totally.
It is a that's a five star move as far as anybody.
19:57
Speaker 2
Goes.
I learned that from Drew Terp.
19:59
Speaker 1
Really.
20:00
Speaker 2
You know, I used to work with at Maddie's and then was the opening chef at Pico in Los Alamos.
That's that's something I learned from him.
He always made sure to go out and say hi to everybody.
20:10
Speaker 1
You are a local boy through and through, man.
So let me go back to food a little bit.
You brought up a a very nice humble brag, which I really appreciate.
You're like, I was too good for this restaurant, you know?
When did you catch the bug and how did you grab hold of you and what was your kind of process and and your progression?
20:29
Speaker 2
There was, it's a little wonky.
Like there was a point when I was in Mammoth and I wasn't really skiing anymore, but I was still there.
I wasn't really sure what I was doing.
Snow cats were cool, but I was never going to be like real life successful being in the snow cat.
20:45
Like I said, I wasn't very good at it, but it it was cool to kill the time and I didn't want to be one of those guys who was fifty with no knees, you know, renting an overpriced crappy apartment in Mammoth.
And I didn't want to be that guy.
And then my dad actually passed away on the East Coast.
21:01
Sorry to hear that.
And I.
21:02
Speaker 1
It's a it's a terrible club.
21:04
Speaker 2
Yeah, it's, you know, everybody, everybody's got to do it.
It's part of life.
You know, it is a terrible club.
So I was a little, I was a little shaken up when that happened.
I didn't really know what to do.
So I decided to just try to try out the cooking thing, see if I liked it.
21:19
And I moved to LA and ended up in this little, little restaurant in Malibu that isn't there anymore.
It was in Point Dune.
It was called Duck Dive.
21:27
Speaker 1
I actually know that restaurant, yeah.
21:29
Speaker 2
And there was a a good crew of guys in the kitchen, and we all just got really tight.
And I met one kid in there, Anthony Stagnaro, who's now actually the executive chef of another auberish property in Napa.
But we became really tight.
And just every day off we'd go cook and we'd practice what we wanted to do 'cause we were cooking other people's food.
21:50
Yeah.
And then, yeah, I just started to get good at it and hammered down and realized that this was like my my Ave. to be successful at something 'cause I was at that point 3031 and, you know, knew the clock was ticking.
22:07
So I I decided.
22:08
Speaker 1
You got dreams, got goals.
22:09
Speaker 2
Yeah, decided to just hammer down.
And then Maddie's is where it kind of all real, really changed.
I went from being a good cook to being a chef with the guys that were in that kitchen then.
22:21
Speaker 1
You know, you brought up kind of the, you know, Anthony Bourdain, God rest him, the kitchen confidential book that he read wrote great book, great book.
And one of the things I really enjoyed about that book when I read it a long, long time ago, which was, you know, the, the whole thought process of the kitchen is, is a pirate ship, right?
22:45
And it is people will either be lifers or it'll be just a job or you will feel the tools in your hand or this is what I took away from the book, right?
You feel the tools in your hand and say, I can, this is a weapon I can do something with.
And when you see passionate people find food, making that jump because I think one of the things about this valley just in general is if you're getting a bad meal in this valley, you're.
23:11
Speaker 2
You're.
23:12
Speaker 1
Blowing it, you know, between the brothers over at, at at Red Barn Clark up at full of life, you know, Pico, the the Barlacoa.
I mean, we have, we live in a town of or out, you know, we live in a town of 1000 people and there's two Michelin stars, which is a pretty unbelievable, right?
23:37
Every single restaurant in this valley, people are bringing a game, like a game, a game if even if at the top level.
And as you go through the people who are passionate about it really connect people.
And I think one of the themes of this show is community.
23:52
And community I think is so incredibly important where if you grow up in a place and you love your community, you give back.
And I see from your point of view and a lot of the other chefs that you know, Leonardo was awesome at it and still is where you'd like, Hey, how you doing?
24:08
You know, come to the table.
What are you doing?
Seeing what's happening everywhere around this industrial elites.
I mean, I'm just saying the things that are coming to mind.
But it was like you go in and when you sat down, somebody was like, I, I am going to wow you.
Like that's my job.
24:24
I I'm not you didn't come in for average.
You're not leaving with average.
We're going to we're going to bring the heat.
And I love the fact that Maddie's as a ownership of like a community, right?
And what you have done in the last How many years have you been head chef now?
24:42
Speaker 2
Just over a year, just since I took over.
Yeah, I've been back since September 2023, but I was chef to cuisine then and I took over as exec chef like last February 2025.
24:55
Speaker 1
And and I'm not disparaging anybody whatsoever, but when you got your hand on the wheel, something absolutely changed.
I mean, food wise, service wise, the level of expectation, the service, even to a certain level, the wouldn't how quickly food comes out, how good it is, how fresh it is, the ingredients that you're using, all of it.
25:18
I mean, just from me to you beginning to say this on the air honestly is like, oh wow, we, we've got one of us behind the behind the grill.
And I just wanted to say thank you for that.
25:28
Speaker 2
Because, well, thank you.
25:29
Speaker 1
I I hope, I hope, you know, that it is absolutely felt, or at least felt by me, right.
And I see the I see the effort that's going into it.
And it feels great to have a local kid, you know, kid, sorry, but like have one of us behind the back there, you know, making it for the community.
25:49
And I, I just wanted to say I really appreciated it.
Yeah.
Thank you.
What was that journey like for you?
25:54
Speaker 2
Well, as far as at Maddie's the second round here I.
25:58
Speaker 1
I mean, I, I know you gotta listen, I, I, I appreciate you gotta wear the corporate hat on this one, but.
26:05
Speaker 2
Well, I had actually been speaking to, like, as soon as Logan reached out to me and told me, you know, Auberge is coming in there and you should try and get a job, you should try and come back 'cause he, him and I talked a lot and he knew, he knew I always wanted to be at Maddie's and I wasn't gonna come back up here and work anywhere else.
26:23
Like no disrespect to any other restaurant, I just knew that I wanted to be in charge of Maddie.
26:28
Speaker 1
'S Hey, some people just want to wear a Yankees cap now I get it, I get.
26:31
Speaker 2
It I don't, I don't get the Yankees, but I know.
26:35
Speaker 1
I just recently became a Boston Red Sox fan because I know a guy who's pitching on the Red Sox, and I'm like, am I going to buy a Boston Red Sox hat?
Yeah, I'm in.
OK.
26:43
Speaker 2
All right, let's go.
So yeah, I came back.
I had been speaking to Rhoda before they had even opened, like when they just broke ground, you know, and I was doing my little burger thing that I was doing in LA and I was, that wasn't really for me.
27:00
And I was about to have the kids.
So I, I knew it was going to be time to come back up to the valley soon.
And then for whatever reason, it didn't really work out right then.
And then when I really did like exit my burger business, I was thinking about going to work with my friend Anthony at Stanley Ranch in Napa.
27:19
And he let me know that Rhoda was probably looking for chefs cuisine.
So I reached out to her and she said absolutely.
I came up to the tasting, got the job and came in and it was, you know, a business of that size.
27:35
There's always kinks to work out.
So I kind of felt like we were right when I got there. her and I were just trying to change the tires while the car was moving, you know, trying to figure it out, figure it out.
And meanwhile, I'm, I know that she's probably going to leave relatively soon.
27:50
It really wears you out opening a place like that.
It's hard Miles.
And she didn't have like a, a connection to the valley like I do.
So I was planning on filling in that spot when she left, but she left a little quicker than any of us had planned on.
28:05
So another guy came in from Napa and he was like dead set on doing everything the way he wanted to do it.
So I kind of got back burnered a little bit and just watched Tim not kill it.
28:21
I I guess would be the nice way to say it.
And yeah, we, we definitely had a little back and forth, me and that guy, but I knew he had an expiration date.
So even though I got pretty close to leaving a couple times in that period, I just wrote it out.
28:37
And then then he left and I had a meeting like, Hey, how do you feel about this?
And I was like, I'm already done.
I have a menu ready.
Like I was ready to go.
So did that.
I had to do a big tasting for her owners, some of the some of the big guys at the company and I think I made 160 something plates that night that were up from my new menu while we were running dinner service of our current menu.
29:07
So it was, yeah, it was a little chaotic.
I did have a buddy who came down from the Napa property that helped me out and he was like, I'm going to cook everything.
You're you're not going to have to cook.
You just go in the room and talk.
And then we got to hot courses and he was like, I need some help.
29:24
And we were, we were in it, but it was pretty cool.
Yeah, I kind of knocked it out of the park for the tasting.
And then and then we were rolling.
29:34
Supporting Local: Craftsmanship, Community, and Being Valley Strong
You know, everybody, this, this whole conversation that what we had today was, is I think it could be summed up by, you know, Kevin Malone is hungry and you're hungry for everything.
I mean, I've, I've known you a little while.
I've got to watch you work.
29:50
It doesn't seem, it seems like everything you do, you go all in.
I mean, moving across the country to, to pursue skiing, right.
And then doing what you got to do to, to succeed, You know, moving on from there to learning.
I mean, just anybody can swap out a car motor, just start there.
30:07
It means you know how know what to do with your hands and then get the job done.
And I am so happy that we have a place that we as a community love.
And back there in the kitchen is somebody who's working hard to feed his community.
30:25
And I just wanted to have you on just to kind of throw some flowers at you and, and put you in front of everybody and, and let, let everybody know, hey, back there, there's a local kid and he's going to do, do right by you.
So.
30:36
Speaker 2
Well, thank you.
30:37
Speaker 1
Thank you.
Appreciate it.
No, man, I I'm a I'm a big fan.
I'm cheering for you.
I hope you're here for.
I hope.
I hope your kids graduate from San Diego High School.
You know what I mean?
Yeah, I, I love the fact that no matter where you go in this valley, you can be fed, but it takes a very special place to feel connected to.
30:55
And if you're listening to this and you haven't been to Maddie's in a while, I would suggest, highly suggest that you go in, you get a burger and a beer, sit by the fire, put your feet up a little bit, stretch out and feel like you've been welcomed home.
31:10
And I think that's exactly what you're doing with every plate that you're pushing out there right now is you are absolutely welcoming a community back home and you're the right guy behind the grill, man.
Well, thank you.
I just wanted to say thank you very much.
I wanted to throw some flowers at you and.
31:25
Speaker 2
I appreciate it.
31:26
Speaker 1
Thank you everybody come come see you.
Hey everybody, this has been Keith Sarlos and you have been listening to chopping it up on one O 5.9 crazy country, one of the last independent radio stations in California.
Then I I can't say that more and more and more.
31:44
I've got to say it all the time, because in a world where corporatization and homogeny and aiming for the lowest common denominator seems to be happening more and more and more, you get to live in a valley where people really care about what they're doing.
32:02
They care about their craft, they care about their community, and they want to do right by it.
So if you see some litter out there, make sure you pick it up and put it into a trash can and spend a little bit time in the restaurant, spend a little bit time in the local grocery stores and coffee shops and wineries.
32:17
Support the locals.
I can't say that enough.
We live in a community.
Spend your money in the hood that support the radio advertisers here on Crazy Country.
Because without independent businesses, without independent people, without independent radio stations, everybody else gets to gets to decide what you listen to, what you eat and what you do.
32:41
And I think staying independent and staying Valley strong is something that we should all shoot for to leave a better environment for our kids and let them know that places like this still exists.
So Kevin, thanks for coming in today.
You've been listening to Crazy Country One O 5.9 back to your regularly scheduled programming.
Link to ashow and all info https://open.spotify.com/episode/3EMjMeRTa3wrZlYdfUNvUG
Episode 43 PART 2 OF 2 With: Louis Lucas, Santa Barbara County Wine, Lucas & Lewellen, and the Foundation of an Entire Industry
In Episode 43 of Chopping It Up with Keith Saarloos, Keith sits down with Louis Lucas, one of the true pioneers of Santa Barbara County wine and one of the most important grape growers in California’s Central Coast history.
Long before Santa Barbara wine country became a destination, before the tasting rooms, before the weekend crowds, and before the Santa Ynez Valley was known around the world for wine, there were only about 80 acres of wine grapes in Santa Barbara County.
Then Louis Lucas helped plant 800.
This episode is the origin story of Santa Barbara County wine as told by one of the people who helped build it from the ground up. Louis talks about growing up in Delano, California, learning agriculture from his Croatian farming family, attending Notre Dame, returning to farming, planting vineyards in Santa Maria, Paso Robles, Edna Valley, Los Alamos, and the Santa Ynez Valley, and helping shape the future of grape growing on the Central Coast.
Keith and Louis discuss the vineyard that helped launch Kendall-Jackson Chardonnay, the early days of Tepusquet Vineyards, working with legendary winemakers, studying Old World vineyards in Europe, canopy management, co-fermentation, hand harvesting, vineyard economics, imported bulk wine, and why Santa Barbara County can grow Burgundy, Rhône, Italian, and Bordeaux varieties within a short drive.
This is not just a wine episode.
It is a conversation about farming, risk, vision, grit, legacy, and the people who built the foundation for an entire region.
Listen to Episode 43:
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n Episode 43 of Chopping It Up with Keith Saarloos, Keith sits down with Louis Lucas, one of the most important figures in the history of Santa Barbara County wine, California Central Coast viticulture, and the development of modern grape growing in the Santa Ynez Valley, Santa Maria Valley, Los Alamos, Paso Robles, and Edna Valley.
Louis Lucas is widely known as a pioneering grape grower, vineyard developer, consultant, and co-founder of Lucas & Lewellen Vineyards. His influence on Santa Barbara County wine is difficult to overstate. Before Santa Barbara County was recognized as one of the most dynamic wine regions in the world, before the tasting rooms, before the fame of the Santa Maria Valley, before the explosion of vineyards in Los Alamos and the Santa Ynez Valley, there were only about 80 acres of wine grapes in the county.
Louis Lucas helped change that.
Lucas & Lewellen Vineyards:
Louis Lucas biography:
Santa Barbara Independent profile on Louis Lucas:
https://www.independent.com/2013/10/30/liquid-legacy-louis-lucas/
In the episode, Louis explains that when he and his family began planting vineyards in Santa Maria in 1970, Santa Barbara County had only a small wine grape footprint. He and his team planted roughly 800 acres, an expansion that helped define the future of the region. That early work placed Louis among the first major commercial wine grape growers in Santa Barbara County and San Luis Obispo County.
Keith begins the conversation by acknowledging what every serious Santa Barbara County farmer and winemaker understands: today’s wine industry stands on the shoulders of people who took risks before the region had momentum. Louis Lucas is one of those people.
Louis talks about the vineyard land between Los Olivos and Los Alamos, the Santa Maria vineyards, Tepusquet Vineyards, Paso Robles plantings, Edna Valley work, and the long arc of grape growing across the Central Coast. He also explains that one of the vineyards he farmed became deeply connected to the early success of Kendall-Jackson.
Kendall-Jackson became one of the most recognizable names in American wine, and Louis explains in the episode that the first bottles of Kendall-Jackson Chardonnay came from grapes grown from his vineyard work in Santa Maria. That connection places Santa Barbara County fruit directly inside one of the most important commercial wine stories in modern American wine history.
Kendall-Jackson:
Wine & Spirits remembrance of Jess Jackson and Tepusquet Vineyards:
https://www.wineandspiritsmagazine.com/news/jess-jackson-a-remembrance
Washington Post archive mentioning Louis Lucas and Tepusquet Vineyards:
The conversation then turns to Louis’s early life. He grew up in Delano, California, in a Croatian farming family. His father learned to grow grapes through hard work, necessity, and observation. The family began with raisins and table grapes before Louis eventually helped move into wine grapes. Louis describes a world of freight cars, wood boxes, ice, salt, cross-country shipping, New York markets, Chicago auctions, and the old table grape business that shaped his understanding of agriculture before wine became the focus.
Keith and Louis spend time discussing the difference between table grapes, raisin grapes, cannery grapes, and wine grapes. Louis describes how fruit was picked, packed, loaded into freight cars, cooled, shipped across the country, and sold through auctions and commission houses. This section of the conversation is a rare first-hand window into California agriculture before modern logistics, modern wine branding, and modern direct-to-consumer marketing.
Louis also discusses his education at the University of Notre Dame, his time in law school at the University of San Francisco, his military service, and being called into service during the Watts riots in Los Angeles. These experiences shaped him before he returned home to work with his father and brother in grape growing.
University of Notre Dame:
University of San Francisco School of Law:
Watts riots history:
https://www.britannica.com/event/Watts-Riots-of-1965
The episode also touches on one of the most complicated and difficult chapters in California agriculture: the era of Cesar Chavez, the United Farm Workers, labor conflict, boycotts, grower negotiations, and the economic and human pressures that shaped farming during that period. Louis describes sitting across the table and negotiating contracts during a time when grape growers, farm workers, unions, consumers, and politics collided across California.
Cesar Chavez Foundation:
United Farm Workers:
From there, Keith and Louis return to wine. Louis explains why growers began looking beyond the San Joaquin Valley for cooler climates. Napa was already established, but growers and winemakers were searching for new places where premium wine grapes could thrive. Louis saw possibility in Santa Maria, Paso Robles, Edna Valley, Los Alamos, and the Santa Ynez Valley.
One of the most important themes in the episode is Santa Barbara County’s climate diversity. Louis and Keith discuss why Santa Barbara County is one of the rare places in the world where growers can cultivate an extraordinary range of varieties within a short distance. In Santa Maria, cool-climate varieties like Pinot Noir and Chardonnay thrive. In Los Alamos, Italian and Rhône varieties find a natural home. In the Santa Ynez Valley, depending on location, exposure, and soil, growers can work with Rhône varieties, Bordeaux varieties, Spanish varieties, and more.
Santa Barbara Vintners:
Santa Maria Valley AVA:
Santa Ynez Valley:
Los Alamos, California:
https://www.visitlosalamosca.com/
Keith describes Santa Barbara County as one of the only places where you can grow Burgundy, Rhône, Italian, and Bordeaux varieties within a short drive. Louis agrees, explaining that the region has climate, soil, growing season, and site diversity that few wine regions can match.
Louis also discusses the influence of European vineyard practices. He traveled through some of the greatest vineyards in the world, including vineyards in France and Germany, studying soil, canopy, vine size, pruning, trellising, and vineyard management. One of the lessons he brought back was that Old World vineyards often focused on smaller vines, thoughtful canopy manipulation, and long-term vine health. These observations helped shape his approach in California.
The episode covers canopy management, trellis systems, pruning, split canopies, hand harvesting, machine harvesting, vineyard labor, and the difference between ordinary production and high-quality wine grape growing. Louis explains that while he used mechanical harvesters in earlier phases of his career, he values hand harvesting and the skill of experienced vineyard workers. He describes vineyard crews who know good grapes from bad grapes and who have worked with him for decades.
Another major topic is co-fermentation. Louis explains how he learned about fermenting multiple grape varieties together from Old World wine traditions and eventually applied those lessons to California wine. He describes making wines that combined varieties and experimenting with combinations such as Cabernet and Syrah.
Lucas & Lewellen wines:
The conversation also gets honest about the economics of the grape business. Louis and Keith discuss how wine grape prices have not kept pace with farming costs. Louis talks about grapes selling for hundreds of dollars per ton today while farming costs can approach or exceed thousands of dollars per acre. They discuss imported bulk wine, the decline of younger consumers drinking wine, global competition, and the difficulty of farming premium grapes when the market does not reward the true cost of quality.
This is one of the most important parts of the episode for anyone interested in the future of California wine. It is not just about romance, vineyards, awards, and tasting rooms. It is about economics, farming costs, market pressure, imports, labor, and the hard reality of keeping vineyards alive.
Despite those challenges, Louis remains competitive. He talks about award-winning wines, Notre Dame wine selections, Cabernet competing against Napa and Calistoga fruit, Chenin Blanc, Albariño, Chardonnay, Pinot Noir, and the continued quality coming out of Santa Barbara County. Even after more than 50 years, Louis is still experimenting, still farming, still tasting, still competing, and still proving that experience matters.
Notre Dame Wine Academy:
https://think.nd.edu/wine-academy/
Keith frames the episode as the first half of a larger story about Louis Lucas and the Santa Ynez Valley. The conversation is not just about grapes. It is about the foundation of an industry. The vineyards, tasting rooms, wineries, restaurants, tourism, and energy that now define Santa Barbara wine country were built by people willing to plant before the market was obvious.
Louis Lucas was one of those people.
This episode is essential listening for anyone interested in Santa Barbara County wine history, Santa Ynez Valley wine, Santa Maria Valley viticulture, Central Coast farming, California grape growing, Kendall-Jackson, Lucas & Lewellen, Notre Dame, Croatian farming families, vineyard economics, or the people who built the wine industry long before it became famous.
Listen to Episode 43:
https://open.spotify.com/episode/6C3QuKppu9CQJ8QQqj4VPh
Chopping It Up Podcast Archive:
https://saarloosandsons.com/sscopod
Saarloos & Sons:
Related Links and Resources
Listen to Episode 43 on Spotify:
https://open.spotify.com/episode/6C3QuKppu9CQJ8QQqj4VPh
Chopping It Up Podcast Archive:
https://saarloosandsons.com/sscopod
Saarloos & Sons:
Lucas & Lewellen Vineyards:
Louis Lucas biography:
Lucas & Lewellen wines:
Santa Barbara Independent: The Liquid Legacy of Louis Lucas:
https://www.independent.com/2013/10/30/liquid-legacy-louis-lucas/
Noozhawk: Lucas & Lewellen Estate Vineyards:
https://www.noozhawk.com/laurie-jervis-lucas-lewellen-selling-sections-of-its-estate-vineyards/
Santa Barbara Vintners:
Santa Maria Valley:
Visit Santa Ynez Valley:
Visit Los Alamos:
https://www.visitlosalamosca.com/
Kendall-Jackson:
Wine & Spirits: Jess Jackson and Tepusquet Vineyards:
https://www.wineandspiritsmagazine.com/news/jess-jackson-a-remembrance
Washington Post archive on Kendall-Jackson and Tepusquet Vineyards:
University of Notre Dame:
Notre Dame Wine Academy:
https://think.nd.edu/wine-academy/
University of San Francisco School of Law:
Cesar Chavez Foundation:
United Farm Workers:
Watts riots history:
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Topics Covered
Louis Lucas
Lucas & Lewellen Vineyards
Santa Barbara County wine history
Santa Barbara County wine pioneers
Santa Ynez Valley wine history
Santa Maria Valley wine history
Los Alamos wine history
Central Coast wine history
California viticulture
California grape growing
Santa Barbara County vineyards
Wine grape farming
Vineyard development
Tepusquet Vineyards
Kendall-Jackson Chardonnay
Jess Jackson
Jed Steele
Santa Maria wine grapes
Santa Maria Valley AVA
Santa Ynez Valley AVA
Los Alamos vineyards
Paso Robles vineyards
Edna Valley vineyards
Riverbench Vineyard
Nielsen Vineyard
Byron Vineyard
Foxen Canyon
Los Olivos
Los Alamos
Delano, California
Croatian farming families
Croatian-American agriculture
Raisin grapes
Table grapes
Cannery grapes
Wine grapes
Thompson Seedless
Fruit cocktail grapes
New York grape auction
Chicago grape auction
Freight car agriculture
California grape shipping
University of Notre Dame
Notre Dame alumni
Notre Dame wine
University of San Francisco Law School
Watts riots
California agriculture history
Cesar Chavez
United Farm Workers
Grape boycott
California farm labor
Vineyard labor
Wine grape economics
Bulk wine imports
Imported wine
Wine industry depression
Young people and wine consumption
Wine grape prices
Cost of farming wine grapes
Premium grape growing
Old World viticulture
French vineyards
German vineyards
Romanée-Conti
Vineyard soil samples
Canopy management
Trellis systems
Split canopy
Cordon pruning
Cane pruning
Small vines
Old vines
Hand harvesting grapes
Machine harvesting grapes
Vineyard crews
Experienced farm workers
Co-fermentation
Cabernet Sauvignon
Syrah
Pinot Noir
Chardonnay
Chenin Blanc
Albariño
Bordeaux varieties
Burgundy varieties
Italian grape varieties
Rhône varieties
Santa Barbara climate zones
Cool-climate viticulture
Warm-climate viticulture
Burgundy to Bordeaux in 30 miles
Santa Barbara County terroir
California wine awards
Paso Robles wine competition
Notre Dame wine club
Stanford wine club
Valley View Vineyard
Goodchild Vineyard
High 9 Vineyard
Old Adobe Vineyard
Los Alamos Vineyard
Santa Ynez Valley farming
Santa Barbara County agriculture
Wine pioneers
Vineyard founders
Building a wine region
California Central Coast wine
Chopping It Up with Keith Saarloos
Keith Saarloos
Saarloos & Sons
Santa Ynez Valley podcast
Wine podcast
Farming podcast
California agriculture podcast
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Frequently Asked Questions
Who is Louis Lucas?
Louis Lucas is a pioneering California grape grower, vineyard developer, consultant, and co-founder of Lucas & Lewellen Vineyards. He is one of the most important figures in the history of Santa Barbara County wine and Central Coast viticulture.
Louis Lucas biography:
What is Lucas & Lewellen Vineyards?
Lucas & Lewellen Vineyards is a Santa Barbara County wine estate co-founded by Louis Lucas and Royce Lewellen. The winery farms estate vineyards across multiple areas of Santa Barbara County and produces wines from a wide range of grape varieties.
Lucas & Lewellen Vineyards:
Why is Louis Lucas important to Santa Barbara County wine?
Louis Lucas is important because he helped expand Santa Barbara County wine grape planting from a very small base into a serious commercial winegrowing region. In the episode, he discusses how the county had roughly 80 acres of wine grapes before he helped plant 800 acres in Santa Maria.
Did Louis Lucas help build the Santa Barbara County wine industry?
Yes. Louis Lucas was one of the early commercial grape growers who helped establish Santa Barbara County as a serious wine region. His vineyard work in Santa Maria, Los Alamos, the Santa Ynez Valley, Paso Robles, and Edna Valley helped shape the Central Coast wine industry.
What vineyard helped launch Kendall-Jackson Chardonnay?
In the episode, Louis Lucas discusses how early Kendall-Jackson Chardonnay came from vineyard fruit connected to his Santa Maria vineyard work. The Tepusquet Vineyard area played an important role in Kendall-Jackson’s early success.
Kendall-Jackson:
Wine & Spirits on Jess Jackson and Tepusquet Vineyards:
https://www.wineandspiritsmagazine.com/news/jess-jackson-a-remembrance
What is Tepusquet Vineyard?
Tepusquet Vineyards was an important early vineyard development in the Santa Maria Valley area. Louis Lucas and his partners played a key role in developing vineyard land in the region, and fruit from that area became connected to major wineries including Kendall-Jackson.
Where did Louis Lucas grow up?
Louis Lucas grew up in Delano, California, in a Croatian farming family. His family worked in agriculture and grape growing before Louis became one of the major vineyard developers in Santa Barbara County.
What is Louis Lucas’s connection to Notre Dame?
Louis Lucas attended the University of Notre Dame. In the episode, he discusses traveling from California to Notre Dame by train and later maintaining a strong connection to the university.
University of Notre Dame:
Notre Dame Wine Academy:
https://think.nd.edu/wine-academy/
What did Louis Lucas study?
Louis Lucas studied business at the University of Notre Dame. He later attended law school for a period at the University of San Francisco before returning to agriculture and grape growing.
University of San Francisco School of Law:
What kind of grapes did Louis Lucas’s family grow before wine grapes?
Before wine grapes became the focus, the Lucas family worked with raisin grapes, table grapes, cannery grapes, and Thompson Seedless grapes. They shipped grapes across the country by freight car to markets including New York and Chicago.
How were table grapes shipped in the old days?
Louis Lucas explains that grapes were packed in boxes, loaded into freight cars, cooled with ice and salt, and shipped across the country. Some shipments took about a week to reach eastern markets.
Did Louis Lucas negotiate with Cesar Chavez?
Yes. In the episode, Louis Lucas discusses sitting across the table and negotiating contracts during the era of Cesar Chavez, the United Farm Workers, the grape boycott, and intense labor disputes in California agriculture.
Cesar Chavez Foundation:
United Farm Workers:
Why did Louis Lucas come to Santa Barbara County?
Louis Lucas came to Santa Barbara County because he and other growers were looking for cooler climates where premium wine grapes could thrive. Santa Maria, Los Alamos, and the Santa Ynez Valley offered climate conditions that were very different from the hotter San Joaquin Valley.
Why is Santa Barbara County special for wine grapes?
Santa Barbara County is special because it contains multiple climate zones within a relatively short distance. Cool areas like Santa Maria are ideal for Pinot Noir and Chardonnay, while Los Alamos and the Santa Ynez Valley can support Italian, Rhône, Bordeaux, Spanish, and other grape varieties.
Santa Barbara Vintners:
What does Keith Saarloos mean by “Burgundy to Bordeaux in 30 miles”?
Keith Saarloos uses that phrase to describe the extraordinary climate diversity of Santa Barbara County. Within a short drive, growers can work with cool-climate Burgundy varieties like Pinot Noir and Chardonnay, Rhône varieties, Italian varieties, and warmer Bordeaux varieties.
What did Louis Lucas learn from European vineyards?
Louis Lucas studied famous vineyards in Europe, including vineyards in France and Germany. He observed canopy management, vine size, pruning, trellising, soil, and Old World vineyard practices that influenced how he approached grape growing in California.
What is canopy management?
Canopy management refers to how a grapevine’s leaves, shoots, fruit zone, and structure are managed. It affects sunlight, airflow, ripening, disease pressure, and grape quality. Louis Lucas discusses canopy management as one of the key lessons he studied and applied in California.
What is co-fermentation?
Co-fermentation is the practice of fermenting more than one grape variety together at the same time. Louis Lucas discusses learning about co-fermentation from Old World winemaking traditions and using it in his own wines.
Does Louis Lucas still make wine?
Yes. Louis Lucas remains connected to winegrowing and Lucas & Lewellen, and the winery continues to produce wines from Santa Barbara County vineyards.
Lucas & Lewellen wines:
What grapes does Lucas & Lewellen grow?
Lucas & Lewellen works with many grape varieties across its Santa Barbara County vineyards. The estate has been associated with Pinot Noir, Chardonnay, Bordeaux varieties, Rhône varieties, Italian varieties, and other grapes suited to the region’s diverse climates.
Lucas & Lewellen:
What are the main Lucas & Lewellen vineyards?
Lucas & Lewellen has been associated with estate vineyards including Goodchild, High 9, Old Adobe, Los Alamos Vineyard, and Valley View Vineyard.
Santa Barbara Independent profile:
https://www.independent.com/2013/10/30/liquid-legacy-louis-lucas/
What is the Santa Maria Valley AVA known for?
The Santa Maria Valley AVA is known for cool-climate wine grapes, especially Pinot Noir and Chardonnay. It is one of California’s historic and important coastal winegrowing regions.
Santa Maria Valley:
What is Los Alamos known for in wine?
Los Alamos is known as an important corridor between Santa Maria and the Santa Ynez Valley, with growing conditions suited to a range of varieties, including Italian and Rhône grapes.
Visit Los Alamos:
https://www.visitlosalamosca.com/
What is the Santa Ynez Valley known for in wine?
The Santa Ynez Valley is known for its climate diversity, vineyard sites, tasting rooms, wineries, Rhône varieties, Bordeaux varieties, and its central role in Santa Barbara County wine tourism and production.
Visit Santa Ynez Valley:
What does Louis Lucas say about wine grape economics?
Louis Lucas explains that wine grape farming has become economically difficult because grape prices have not kept pace with farming costs. He discusses low grape prices, high labor and farming costs, imported bulk wine, and challenges facing growers.
Why are imported wines and bulk wine important to this conversation?
Imported bulk wine can put pressure on domestic grape growers because large quantities can enter the market at low prices. Louis and Keith discuss how this affects California grape prices and the economics of local farming.
Why is this episode important for wine lovers?
This episode is important because it explains the foundation of Santa Barbara County wine from the perspective of someone who helped build it. It gives wine lovers a deeper understanding of the vineyards, people, risks, and farming decisions behind the bottles they enjoy.
Why is this episode important for farmers?
This episode is important for farmers because it covers grape economics, labor, shipping, vineyard development, hand harvesting, mechanization, generational agriculture, and the long-term risks involved in planting and maintaining vineyards.
Why is this episode important for the Santa Ynez Valley?
This episode is important because the modern Santa Ynez Valley wine industry exists because of early vineyard pioneers like Louis Lucas. The tasting rooms, wineries, vineyard tourism, restaurants, and wine culture of the valley were built on the farming foundation created by people like him.
What is this episode of Chopping It Up about?
This episode is about Louis Lucas, Santa Barbara County wine history, vineyard development, grape growing, Lucas & Lewellen, Kendall-Jackson, Notre Dame, Croatian farming families, Old World viticulture, vineyard economics, and the foundation of the modern Santa Ynez Valley wine industry.
Where can I listen to Episode 43 with Louis Lucas?
You can listen to Episode 43 of Chopping It Up with Keith Saarloos on Spotify here:
https://open.spotify.com/episode/6C3QuKppu9CQJ8QQqj4VPh
Where can I find more Chopping It Up episodes?
You can find more episodes of Chopping It Up with Keith Saarloos here:
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SEO Keywords
Louis Lucas, Lucas & Lewellen, Lucas and Lewellen, Santa Barbara County wine, Santa Barbara County wine history, Santa Barbara wine pioneer, Santa Ynez Valley wine, Santa Ynez Valley wine history, Santa Maria Valley wine, Santa Maria Valley vineyards, Los Alamos vineyards, Los Olivos wine, Central Coast wine, California viticulture, California grape growing, wine grape farming, vineyard development, Tepusquet Vineyards, Kendall-Jackson Chardonnay, Kendall Jackson, Jess Jackson, Jed Steele, Santa Maria Chardonnay, Santa Maria Pinot Noir, Santa Barbara County Pinot Noir, Santa Barbara County Chardonnay, Santa Barbara County AVA, Santa Maria Valley AVA, Santa Ynez Valley AVA, Paso Robles vineyards, Edna Valley vineyards, Delano California grapes, Croatian farmers California, table grapes, raisin grapes, Thompson Seedless, grape auctions, California agriculture history, Cesar Chavez, United Farm Workers, grape boycott, wine grape economics, bulk wine imports, vineyard labor, canopy management, trellis systems, co-fermentation, Cabernet Sauvignon, Syrah, Pinot Noir, Chardonnay, Chenin Blanc, Albariño, Bordeaux varieties, Burgundy varieties, Rhône varieties, Italian grape varieties, Burgundy to Bordeaux in 30 miles, Notre Dame wine, Notre Dame Wine Academy, Chopping It Up with Keith Saarloos, Keith Saarloos, Saarloos & Sons, Santa Ynez Valley podcast, wine podcast, farming podcast, agriculture podcast.
Episode 42 PART 1 of 2: Louis Lucas, Santa Barbara County Wine, Lucas & Lewellen, and the Foundation of an Entire Industry
Episode 42: Louis Lucas — The Man Who Helped Build Santa Barbara Wine (Part 1)
Louis Lucas, one of the true pioneers of Santa Barbara County wine and a man whose influence can still be seen in vineyards across the Central Coast.
This is Part 1 of a two-part conversation that explores the origins of Santa Barbara wine country long before tasting rooms, wine trails, and destination tourism transformed the region into what it is today.
When Louis Lucas arrived in Santa Barbara County in 1970, there were only about 80 acres of wine grapes planted in the entire county. His first project added roughly 800 acres, helping launch a transformation that would eventually make Santa Barbara County one of the most respected wine-growing regions in the world.
Keith and Louis discuss the early days of vineyard development in Santa Maria, the creation of Tepusquet Vineyard, and how fruit from Louis's vineyard became the foundation for the first bottles of Kendall-Jackson Chardonnay. Along the way, Louis shares stories about growing up in a Croatian farming family in Delano, California, attending Notre Dame, serving during the Watts Riots, negotiating directly with Cesar Chavez during the grape boycott era, and learning vineyard techniques from some of the greatest wine regions in Europe.
The conversation explores the economics of farming, the evolution of California agriculture, the challenges facing today's grape growers, and why Santa Barbara County remains one of the few places in the world capable of producing world-class Burgundy, Rhône, Italian, and Bordeaux varieties within a short drive.
More than a conversation about wine, this episode is the story of vision, risk, hard work, and the people who built an industry before anyone knew what it would become.
Everything you see in Santa Barbara wine country today started with someone willing to plant a vineyard when there was no guarantee anyone would come.
Louis Lucas was one of those people. Listen to Episode 42:
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n Episode 43 of Chopping It Up with Keith Saarloos, Keith sits down with Louis Lucas, one of the most important figures in the history of Santa Barbara County wine, California Central Coast viticulture, and the development of modern grape growing in the Santa Ynez Valley, Santa Maria Valley, Los Alamos, Paso Robles, and Edna Valley.
Louis Lucas is widely known as a pioneering grape grower, vineyard developer, consultant, and co-founder of Lucas & Lewellen Vineyards. His influence on Santa Barbara County wine is difficult to overstate. Before Santa Barbara County was recognized as one of the most dynamic wine regions in the world, before the tasting rooms, before the fame of the Santa Maria Valley, before the explosion of vineyards in Los Alamos and the Santa Ynez Valley, there were only about 80 acres of wine grapes in the county.
Louis Lucas helped change that.
Lucas & Lewellen Vineyards:
Louis Lucas biography:
Santa Barbara Independent profile on Louis Lucas:
https://www.independent.com/2013/10/30/liquid-legacy-louis-lucas/
In the episode, Louis explains that when he and his family began planting vineyards in Santa Maria in 1970, Santa Barbara County had only a small wine grape footprint. He and his team planted roughly 800 acres, an expansion that helped define the future of the region. That early work placed Louis among the first major commercial wine grape growers in Santa Barbara County and San Luis Obispo County.
Keith begins the conversation by acknowledging what every serious Santa Barbara County farmer and winemaker understands: today’s wine industry stands on the shoulders of people who took risks before the region had momentum. Louis Lucas is one of those people.
Louis talks about the vineyard land between Los Olivos and Los Alamos, the Santa Maria vineyards, Tepusquet Vineyards, Paso Robles plantings, Edna Valley work, and the long arc of grape growing across the Central Coast. He also explains that one of the vineyards he farmed became deeply connected to the early success of Kendall-Jackson.
Kendall-Jackson became one of the most recognizable names in American wine, and Louis explains in the episode that the first bottles of Kendall-Jackson Chardonnay came from grapes grown from his vineyard work in Santa Maria. That connection places Santa Barbara County fruit directly inside one of the most important commercial wine stories in modern American wine history.
Kendall-Jackson:
Wine & Spirits remembrance of Jess Jackson and Tepusquet Vineyards:
https://www.wineandspiritsmagazine.com/news/jess-jackson-a-remembrance
Washington Post archive mentioning Louis Lucas and Tepusquet Vineyards:
The conversation then turns to Louis’s early life. He grew up in Delano, California, in a Croatian farming family. His father learned to grow grapes through hard work, necessity, and observation. The family began with raisins and table grapes before Louis eventually helped move into wine grapes. Louis describes a world of freight cars, wood boxes, ice, salt, cross-country shipping, New York markets, Chicago auctions, and the old table grape business that shaped his understanding of agriculture before wine became the focus.
Keith and Louis spend time discussing the difference between table grapes, raisin grapes, cannery grapes, and wine grapes. Louis describes how fruit was picked, packed, loaded into freight cars, cooled, shipped across the country, and sold through auctions and commission houses. This section of the conversation is a rare first-hand window into California agriculture before modern logistics, modern wine branding, and modern direct-to-consumer marketing.
Louis also discusses his education at the University of Notre Dame, his time in law school at the University of San Francisco, his military service, and being called into service during the Watts riots in Los Angeles. These experiences shaped him before he returned home to work with his father and brother in grape growing.
University of Notre Dame:
University of San Francisco School of Law:
Watts riots history:
https://www.britannica.com/event/Watts-Riots-of-1965
The episode also touches on one of the most complicated and difficult chapters in California agriculture: the era of Cesar Chavez, the United Farm Workers, labor conflict, boycotts, grower negotiations, and the economic and human pressures that shaped farming during that period. Louis describes sitting across the table and negotiating contracts during a time when grape growers, farm workers, unions, consumers, and politics collided across California.
Cesar Chavez Foundation:
United Farm Workers:
From there, Keith and Louis return to wine. Louis explains why growers began looking beyond the San Joaquin Valley for cooler climates. Napa was already established, but growers and winemakers were searching for new places where premium wine grapes could thrive. Louis saw possibility in Santa Maria, Paso Robles, Edna Valley, Los Alamos, and the Santa Ynez Valley.
One of the most important themes in the episode is Santa Barbara County’s climate diversity. Louis and Keith discuss why Santa Barbara County is one of the rare places in the world where growers can cultivate an extraordinary range of varieties within a short distance. In Santa Maria, cool-climate varieties like Pinot Noir and Chardonnay thrive. In Los Alamos, Italian and Rhône varieties find a natural home. In the Santa Ynez Valley, depending on location, exposure, and soil, growers can work with Rhône varieties, Bordeaux varieties, Spanish varieties, and more.
Santa Barbara Vintners:
Santa Maria Valley AVA:
Santa Ynez Valley:
Los Alamos, California:
https://www.visitlosalamosca.com/
Keith describes Santa Barbara County as one of the only places where you can grow Burgundy, Rhône, Italian, and Bordeaux varieties within a short drive. Louis agrees, explaining that the region has climate, soil, growing season, and site diversity that few wine regions can match.
Louis also discusses the influence of European vineyard practices. He traveled through some of the greatest vineyards in the world, including vineyards in France and Germany, studying soil, canopy, vine size, pruning, trellising, and vineyard management. One of the lessons he brought back was that Old World vineyards often focused on smaller vines, thoughtful canopy manipulation, and long-term vine health. These observations helped shape his approach in California.
The episode covers canopy management, trellis systems, pruning, split canopies, hand harvesting, machine harvesting, vineyard labor, and the difference between ordinary production and high-quality wine grape growing. Louis explains that while he used mechanical harvesters in earlier phases of his career, he values hand harvesting and the skill of experienced vineyard workers. He describes vineyard crews who know good grapes from bad grapes and who have worked with him for decades.
Another major topic is co-fermentation. Louis explains how he learned about fermenting multiple grape varieties together from Old World wine traditions and eventually applied those lessons to California wine. He describes making wines that combined varieties and experimenting with combinations such as Cabernet and Syrah.
Lucas & Lewellen wines:
The conversation also gets honest about the economics of the grape business. Louis and Keith discuss how wine grape prices have not kept pace with farming costs. Louis talks about grapes selling for hundreds of dollars per ton today while farming costs can approach or exceed thousands of dollars per acre. They discuss imported bulk wine, the decline of younger consumers drinking wine, global competition, and the difficulty of farming premium grapes when the market does not reward the true cost of quality.
This is one of the most important parts of the episode for anyone interested in the future of California wine. It is not just about romance, vineyards, awards, and tasting rooms. It is about economics, farming costs, market pressure, imports, labor, and the hard reality of keeping vineyards alive.
Despite those challenges, Louis remains competitive. He talks about award-winning wines, Notre Dame wine selections, Cabernet competing against Napa and Calistoga fruit, Chenin Blanc, Albariño, Chardonnay, Pinot Noir, and the continued quality coming out of Santa Barbara County. Even after more than 50 years, Louis is still experimenting, still farming, still tasting, still competing, and still proving that experience matters.
Notre Dame Wine Academy:
https://think.nd.edu/wine-academy/
Keith frames the episode as the first half of a larger story about Louis Lucas and the Santa Ynez Valley. The conversation is not just about grapes. It is about the foundation of an industry. The vineyards, tasting rooms, wineries, restaurants, tourism, and energy that now define Santa Barbara wine country were built by people willing to plant before the market was obvious.
Louis Lucas was one of those people.
This episode is essential listening for anyone interested in Santa Barbara County wine history, Santa Ynez Valley wine, Santa Maria Valley viticulture, Central Coast farming, California grape growing, Kendall-Jackson, Lucas & Lewellen, Notre Dame, Croatian farming families, vineyard economics, or the people who built the wine industry long before it became famous.
Listen to Episode 43:
https://open.spotify.com/episode/6C3QuKppu9CQJ8QQqj4VPh
Chopping It Up Podcast Archive:
https://saarloosandsons.com/sscopod
Saarloos & Sons:
Related Links and Resources
Listen to Episode 43 on Spotify:
https://open.spotify.com/episode/6C3QuKppu9CQJ8QQqj4VPh
Chopping It Up Podcast Archive:
https://saarloosandsons.com/sscopod
Saarloos & Sons:
Lucas & Lewellen Vineyards:
Louis Lucas biography:
Lucas & Lewellen wines:
Santa Barbara Independent: The Liquid Legacy of Louis Lucas:
https://www.independent.com/2013/10/30/liquid-legacy-louis-lucas/
Noozhawk: Lucas & Lewellen Estate Vineyards:
https://www.noozhawk.com/laurie-jervis-lucas-lewellen-selling-sections-of-its-estate-vineyards/
Santa Barbara Vintners:
Santa Maria Valley:
Visit Santa Ynez Valley:
Visit Los Alamos:
https://www.visitlosalamosca.com/
Kendall-Jackson:
Wine & Spirits: Jess Jackson and Tepusquet Vineyards:
https://www.wineandspiritsmagazine.com/news/jess-jackson-a-remembrance
Washington Post archive on Kendall-Jackson and Tepusquet Vineyards:
University of Notre Dame:
Notre Dame Wine Academy:
https://think.nd.edu/wine-academy/
University of San Francisco School of Law:
Cesar Chavez Foundation:
United Farm Workers:
Watts riots history:
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Topics Covered
Louis Lucas
Lucas & Lewellen Vineyards
Santa Barbara County wine history
Santa Barbara County wine pioneers
Santa Ynez Valley wine history
Santa Maria Valley wine history
Los Alamos wine history
Central Coast wine history
California viticulture
California grape growing
Santa Barbara County vineyards
Wine grape farming
Vineyard development
Tepusquet Vineyards
Kendall-Jackson Chardonnay
Jess Jackson
Jed Steele
Santa Maria wine grapes
Santa Maria Valley AVA
Santa Ynez Valley AVA
Los Alamos vineyards
Paso Robles vineyards
Edna Valley vineyards
Riverbench Vineyard
Nielsen Vineyard
Byron Vineyard
Foxen Canyon
Los Olivos
Los Alamos
Delano, California
Croatian farming families
Croatian-American agriculture
Raisin grapes
Table grapes
Cannery grapes
Wine grapes
Thompson Seedless
Fruit cocktail grapes
New York grape auction
Chicago grape auction
Freight car agriculture
California grape shipping
University of Notre Dame
Notre Dame alumni
Notre Dame wine
University of San Francisco Law School
Watts riots
California agriculture history
Cesar Chavez
United Farm Workers
Grape boycott
California farm labor
Vineyard labor
Wine grape economics
Bulk wine imports
Imported wine
Wine industry depression
Young people and wine consumption
Wine grape prices
Cost of farming wine grapes
Premium grape growing
Old World viticulture
French vineyards
German vineyards
Romanée-Conti
Vineyard soil samples
Canopy management
Trellis systems
Split canopy
Cordon pruning
Cane pruning
Small vines
Old vines
Hand harvesting grapes
Machine harvesting grapes
Vineyard crews
Experienced farm workers
Co-fermentation
Cabernet Sauvignon
Syrah
Pinot Noir
Chardonnay
Chenin Blanc
Albariño
Bordeaux varieties
Burgundy varieties
Italian grape varieties
Rhône varieties
Santa Barbara climate zones
Cool-climate viticulture
Warm-climate viticulture
Burgundy to Bordeaux in 30 miles
Santa Barbara County terroir
California wine awards
Paso Robles wine competition
Notre Dame wine club
Stanford wine club
Valley View Vineyard
Goodchild Vineyard
High 9 Vineyard
Old Adobe Vineyard
Los Alamos Vineyard
Santa Ynez Valley farming
Santa Barbara County agriculture
Wine pioneers
Vineyard founders
Building a wine region
California Central Coast wine
Chopping It Up with Keith Saarloos
Keith Saarloos
Saarloos & Sons
Santa Ynez Valley podcast
Wine podcast
Farming podcast
California agriculture podcast
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Frequently Asked Questions
Who is Louis Lucas?
Louis Lucas is a pioneering California grape grower, vineyard developer, consultant, and co-founder of Lucas & Lewellen Vineyards. He is one of the most important figures in the history of Santa Barbara County wine and Central Coast viticulture.
Louis Lucas biography:
What is Lucas & Lewellen Vineyards?
Lucas & Lewellen Vineyards is a Santa Barbara County wine estate co-founded by Louis Lucas and Royce Lewellen. The winery farms estate vineyards across multiple areas of Santa Barbara County and produces wines from a wide range of grape varieties.
Lucas & Lewellen Vineyards:
Why is Louis Lucas important to Santa Barbara County wine?
Louis Lucas is important because he helped expand Santa Barbara County wine grape planting from a very small base into a serious commercial winegrowing region. In the episode, he discusses how the county had roughly 80 acres of wine grapes before he helped plant 800 acres in Santa Maria.
Did Louis Lucas help build the Santa Barbara County wine industry?
Yes. Louis Lucas was one of the early commercial grape growers who helped establish Santa Barbara County as a serious wine region. His vineyard work in Santa Maria, Los Alamos, the Santa Ynez Valley, Paso Robles, and Edna Valley helped shape the Central Coast wine industry.
What vineyard helped launch Kendall-Jackson Chardonnay?
In the episode, Louis Lucas discusses how early Kendall-Jackson Chardonnay came from vineyard fruit connected to his Santa Maria vineyard work. The Tepusquet Vineyard area played an important role in Kendall-Jackson’s early success.
Kendall-Jackson:
Wine & Spirits on Jess Jackson and Tepusquet Vineyards:
https://www.wineandspiritsmagazine.com/news/jess-jackson-a-remembrance
What is Tepusquet Vineyard?
Tepusquet Vineyards was an important early vineyard development in the Santa Maria Valley area. Louis Lucas and his partners played a key role in developing vineyard land in the region, and fruit from that area became connected to major wineries including Kendall-Jackson.
Where did Louis Lucas grow up?
Louis Lucas grew up in Delano, California, in a Croatian farming family. His family worked in agriculture and grape growing before Louis became one of the major vineyard developers in Santa Barbara County.
What is Louis Lucas’s connection to Notre Dame?
Louis Lucas attended the University of Notre Dame. In the episode, he discusses traveling from California to Notre Dame by train and later maintaining a strong connection to the university.
University of Notre Dame:
Notre Dame Wine Academy:
https://think.nd.edu/wine-academy/
What did Louis Lucas study?
Louis Lucas studied business at the University of Notre Dame. He later attended law school for a period at the University of San Francisco before returning to agriculture and grape growing.
University of San Francisco School of Law:
What kind of grapes did Louis Lucas’s family grow before wine grapes?
Before wine grapes became the focus, the Lucas family worked with raisin grapes, table grapes, cannery grapes, and Thompson Seedless grapes. They shipped grapes across the country by freight car to markets including New York and Chicago.
How were table grapes shipped in the old days?
Louis Lucas explains that grapes were packed in boxes, loaded into freight cars, cooled with ice and salt, and shipped across the country. Some shipments took about a week to reach eastern markets.
Did Louis Lucas negotiate with Cesar Chavez?
Yes. In the episode, Louis Lucas discusses sitting across the table and negotiating contracts during the era of Cesar Chavez, the United Farm Workers, the grape boycott, and intense labor disputes in California agriculture.
Cesar Chavez Foundation:
United Farm Workers:
Why did Louis Lucas come to Santa Barbara County?
Louis Lucas came to Santa Barbara County because he and other growers were looking for cooler climates where premium wine grapes could thrive. Santa Maria, Los Alamos, and the Santa Ynez Valley offered climate conditions that were very different from the hotter San Joaquin Valley.
Why is Santa Barbara County special for wine grapes?
Santa Barbara County is special because it contains multiple climate zones within a relatively short distance. Cool areas like Santa Maria are ideal for Pinot Noir and Chardonnay, while Los Alamos and the Santa Ynez Valley can support Italian, Rhône, Bordeaux, Spanish, and other grape varieties.
Santa Barbara Vintners:
What does Keith Saarloos mean by “Burgundy to Bordeaux in 30 miles”?
Keith Saarloos uses that phrase to describe the extraordinary climate diversity of Santa Barbara County. Within a short drive, growers can work with cool-climate Burgundy varieties like Pinot Noir and Chardonnay, Rhône varieties, Italian varieties, and warmer Bordeaux varieties.
What did Louis Lucas learn from European vineyards?
Louis Lucas studied famous vineyards in Europe, including vineyards in France and Germany. He observed canopy management, vine size, pruning, trellising, soil, and Old World vineyard practices that influenced how he approached grape growing in California.
What is canopy management?
Canopy management refers to how a grapevine’s leaves, shoots, fruit zone, and structure are managed. It affects sunlight, airflow, ripening, disease pressure, and grape quality. Louis Lucas discusses canopy management as one of the key lessons he studied and applied in California.
What is co-fermentation?
Co-fermentation is the practice of fermenting more than one grape variety together at the same time. Louis Lucas discusses learning about co-fermentation from Old World winemaking traditions and using it in his own wines.
Does Louis Lucas still make wine?
Yes. Louis Lucas remains connected to winegrowing and Lucas & Lewellen, and the winery continues to produce wines from Santa Barbara County vineyards.
Lucas & Lewellen wines:
What grapes does Lucas & Lewellen grow?
Lucas & Lewellen works with many grape varieties across its Santa Barbara County vineyards. The estate has been associated with Pinot Noir, Chardonnay, Bordeaux varieties, Rhône varieties, Italian varieties, and other grapes suited to the region’s diverse climates.
Lucas & Lewellen:
What are the main Lucas & Lewellen vineyards?
Lucas & Lewellen has been associated with estate vineyards including Goodchild, High 9, Old Adobe, Los Alamos Vineyard, and Valley View Vineyard.
Santa Barbara Independent profile:
https://www.independent.com/2013/10/30/liquid-legacy-louis-lucas/
What is the Santa Maria Valley AVA known for?
The Santa Maria Valley AVA is known for cool-climate wine grapes, especially Pinot Noir and Chardonnay. It is one of California’s historic and important coastal winegrowing regions.
Santa Maria Valley:
What is Los Alamos known for in wine?
Los Alamos is known as an important corridor between Santa Maria and the Santa Ynez Valley, with growing conditions suited to a range of varieties, including Italian and Rhône grapes.
Visit Los Alamos:
https://www.visitlosalamosca.com/
What is the Santa Ynez Valley known for in wine?
The Santa Ynez Valley is known for its climate diversity, vineyard sites, tasting rooms, wineries, Rhône varieties, Bordeaux varieties, and its central role in Santa Barbara County wine tourism and production.
Visit Santa Ynez Valley:
What does Louis Lucas say about wine grape economics?
Louis Lucas explains that wine grape farming has become economically difficult because grape prices have not kept pace with farming costs. He discusses low grape prices, high labor and farming costs, imported bulk wine, and challenges facing growers.
Why are imported wines and bulk wine important to this conversation?
Imported bulk wine can put pressure on domestic grape growers because large quantities can enter the market at low prices. Louis and Keith discuss how this affects California grape prices and the economics of local farming.
Why is this episode important for wine lovers?
This episode is important because it explains the foundation of Santa Barbara County wine from the perspective of someone who helped build it. It gives wine lovers a deeper understanding of the vineyards, people, risks, and farming decisions behind the bottles they enjoy.
Why is this episode important for farmers?
This episode is important for farmers because it covers grape economics, labor, shipping, vineyard development, hand harvesting, mechanization, generational agriculture, and the long-term risks involved in planting and maintaining vineyards.
Why is this episode important for the Santa Ynez Valley?
This episode is important because the modern Santa Ynez Valley wine industry exists because of early vineyard pioneers like Louis Lucas. The tasting rooms, wineries, vineyard tourism, restaurants, and wine culture of the valley were built on the farming foundation created by people like him.
What is this episode of Chopping It Up about?
This episode is about Louis Lucas, Santa Barbara County wine history, vineyard development, grape growing, Lucas & Lewellen, Kendall-Jackson, Notre Dame, Croatian farming families, Old World viticulture, vineyard economics, and the foundation of the modern Santa Ynez Valley wine industry.
Where can I listen to Episode 43 with Louis Lucas?
You can listen to Episode 43 of Chopping It Up with Keith Saarloos on Spotify here:
https://open.spotify.com/episode/6C3QuKppu9CQJ8QQqj4VPh
Where can I find more Chopping It Up episodes?
You can find more episodes of Chopping It Up with Keith Saarloos here:
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SEO Keywords
Louis Lucas, Lucas & Lewellen, Lucas and Lewellen, Santa Barbara County wine, Santa Barbara County wine history, Santa Barbara wine pioneer, Santa Ynez Valley wine, Santa Ynez Valley wine history, Santa Maria Valley wine, Santa Maria Valley vineyards, Los Alamos vineyards, Los Olivos wine, Central Coast wine, California viticulture, California grape growing, wine grape farming, vineyard development, Tepusquet Vineyards, Kendall-Jackson Chardonnay, Kendall Jackson, Jess Jackson, Jed Steele, Santa Maria Chardonnay, Santa Maria Pinot Noir, Santa Barbara County Pinot Noir, Santa Barbara County Chardonnay, Santa Barbara County AVA, Santa Maria Valley AVA, Santa Ynez Valley AVA, Paso Robles vineyards, Edna Valley vineyards, Delano California grapes, Croatian farmers California, table grapes, raisin grapes, Thompson Seedless, grape auctions, California agriculture history, Cesar Chavez, United Farm Workers, grape boycott, wine grape economics, bulk wine imports, vineyard labor, canopy management, trellis systems, co-fermentation, Cabernet Sauvignon, Syrah, Pinot Noir, Chardonnay, Chenin Blanc, Albariño, Bordeaux varieties, Burgundy varieties, Rhône varieties, Italian grape varieties, Burgundy to Bordeaux in 30 miles, Notre Dame wine, Notre Dame Wine Academy, Chopping It Up with Keith Saarloos, Keith Saarloos, Saarloos & Sons, Santa Ynez Valley podcast, wine podcast, farming podcast, agriculture podcast.
Episode 41: Casey Groves, Faith, Doubt, Church Hurt, and Real Conversations About God
In Episode 41 of Chopping It Up with Keith Saarloos, Keith sits down with his friend Casey Groves, Senior Pastor of Valley Christian Fellowship in the Santa Ynez Valley, for an honest conversation about faith, doubt, church, friendship, skepticism, and what it means to wrestle with God in real life.
This episode was recorded for Easter weekend, but it is not a sermon.
It is a real conversation between two friends.
Keith and Casey talk about how they first met at Good Seed Coffee in Solvang, how a shared interest in off-road vehicles turned into years of Wednesday morning coffee, and how trust was built slowly long before Keith ever walked through the doors of Casey’s church.
The conversation explores why people stay away from church, the difference between God and the flawed people who sometimes represent Him poorly, the pain of church hurt, the importance of asking honest questions, and why church is often misunderstood as a courtroom when it is meant to be a hospital.
Casey shares his own story of growing up in rural Iowa, playing guitar, loving death metal, planning a life in music, moving unexpectedly to California, studying the Bible, and discovering a call to ministry he never planned for.
More than anything, this episode is about relationship.
Relationship before religion.
Questions before answers.
Friendship before trust.
And the simple, difficult, world-changing command to love one another.
Listen to Episode 41 :https://open.spotify.com/episode/6C3QuKppu9CQJ8QQqj4VPh
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Full Episode Summary
In Episode 41 of Chopping It Up with Keith Saarloos, Keith sits down with Casey Groves, Senior Pastor of Valley Christian Fellowship in the Santa Ynez Valley, for one of the most personal, honest, and spiritually direct conversations in the Chopping It Up archive.
This episode was recorded around Easter weekend, between Good Friday and Easter Sunday, but the conversation does not feel like a formal sermon or religious program. Instead, it feels like what it actually is: two friends sitting down to talk about faith, doubt, trust, pain, church, friendship, Jesus, and what it looks like when someone slowly moves from skepticism to relationship.
Valley Christian Fellowship:
Valley Christian Fellowship team page:
https://www.vcfconnect.org/meet-our-team
Valley Christian Fellowship teachings:
https://www.vcfconnect.org/teachings
The episode begins with Keith explaining his own history with faith. For many years, he describes himself as a “CEO Christian,” meaning Christmas and Easter Only. Church was something he attended out of obligation, habit, or a sense that he was supposed to check a box. But over time, his view of faith began to change.
That change did not begin in a church building.
It began over coffee.
Keith and Casey first met at Good Seed Coffee in Solvang after Casey noticed Keith’s 1971 Pinzgauer parked nearby. Casey was into off-road vehicles, Keith was driving one of the strangest and coolest vehicles in town, and the two started talking. They exchanged numbers, and when Keith asked how to save Casey’s contact, Casey told him he could put “Pastor.”
Keith’s reaction was immediate.
He walked away.
Not because Casey had done anything wrong, but because Keith had known enough pastors, enough church people, and enough religious pain to know he was not ready for that conversation. He was hurting. He had lost his father. He was wrestling with grief, anger, distrust, and the deep questions that come after loss. He did not want a pastor shining a bright light into places he was not ready to expose.
Good Seed Coffee Boutique:
https://goodseedcoffeeboutique.com/
Good Seed Coffee Solvang:
https://goodseedcoffee.square.site/
Over time, though, Keith and Casey kept meeting for coffee. Week after week, Wednesday after Wednesday, friendship came before faith. Casey did not force every conversation into a religious pitch. He did not try to make every moment a sermon. He simply got to know Keith.
This becomes one of the central themes of the episode: relationship comes before trust.
Keith explains that people do not earn the right to speak into the deepest parts of someone’s life simply by holding a title. Friendship, consistency, patience, honesty, and time matter. Casey became Keith’s friend long before he became Keith’s pastor.
The conversation then shifts into Casey’s personal story.
Casey grew up in a small town in rural Iowa with only a few hundred people. As a kid, he found a classical guitar in a closet and began teaching himself to play. From the age of 10 to 17, he played every day. Music became his world. He joined bands, wrote songs, and eventually became interested in metal, thrash metal, and death metal.
Casey’s plan was not ministry.
His plan was music.
He wanted to go to audio engineering school, produce bands, make records, and stay close to the music world. Faith was always part of his life, but becoming a full-time pastor was not the plan. He grew up in church, had strong Bible teachers, and saw examples of people who lived what they preached, but ministry still felt like something for someone else.
Then, at 19, everything changed.
Casey heard Francis Chan speak at a youth conference and learned about a Bible school being started in Southern California. At the time, Casey was already signed up for audio engineering school. His student ID was ready. His roommate was lined up. His path seemed set.
But something shifted.
He felt compelled to go to Bible school instead. His parents supported the decision, and within weeks he moved from rural Iowa to California. The move was a shock: mountains, ocean, Los Angeles traffic, art, film, music, creativity, and an entirely different world than the one he had known.
Francis Chan:
https://crazychurch.com/
Ephesians 2:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%202&version=NIV
Casey then shares the moment that changed his spiritual life. While studying the book of Ephesians, he was struck by the contrast between Ephesians 1, which describes God’s love, adoption, grace, redemption, and inheritance, and Ephesians 2, which begins by saying that human beings are dead in their trespasses and sins.
For Casey, the phrase “but God” became life-altering.
He realized that salvation was not about his own effort, intelligence, goodness, or ability to clean himself up. It was about God reaching down in mercy and making someone alive who could not make himself alive.
Keith then plays the role of skeptic, not to attack faith, but to voice what many listeners may be thinking.
In a comfortable, technologically advanced world, why do people feel like they need God?
Food can be ordered to the door. Weather can be forecast. Problems can often be solved with money, technology, convenience, medicine, or distraction. Many people are insulated from need. Others are in deep pain but hide it behind busyness, entertainment, politics, social media, comfort, or control.
Keith asks the question many people quietly carry:
What happens when someone is hurting, lonely, skeptical, or spiritually empty, but does not know how to admit it?
Casey’s answer begins with Jesus.
He explains that part of his role as a pastor is helping people move past the imaginary version of Jesus they carry in their minds and meet the real Jesus found in Scripture. Not the cloud-floating cartoon Jesus. Not the religious stereotype. Not the distorted version created by people who used faith poorly. The real Jesus.
Sermon on the Mount:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205&version=NIV
John 3:16-17:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%203%3A16-17&version=NIV
Casey talks about how Jesus often taught through stories and questions. He explains that Jesus was asked many questions in the Gospels, but often responded with better questions rather than direct answers. That matters because many people are asking the wrong question, or asking from a place of pain, fear, pride, or misunderstanding.
Casey quotes a professor who told him, “The right answer to the wrong question is the wrong answer.”
That idea becomes another major theme in the episode.
Good pastors, good friends, and good spiritual conversations do not always begin with answers. They begin with questions. They begin with listening. They begin with understanding the person before trying to correct the person.
The conversation then turns to why people stay away from church.
Keith and Casey talk about church hurt, hypocrisy, judgment, perception, and disappointment. Casey explains that many people imagine church as a courtroom, a place where they will be judged, condemned, exposed, and sentenced.
But when church is working the way it is supposed to work, it is not a courtroom.
It is a hospital.
That may be the most powerful image in the episode.
Casey explains that the church is a place for sick people to get well. It is not a place where perfect people gather to look down on everyone else. It is a place where spiritually unhealthy people come to receive help, healing, truth, community, and grace.
He compares it to someone walking into a gym and criticizing the out-of-shape people inside. The whole point of the gym is that people go there to get healthy. The whole point of a hospital is that sick people go there to be treated.
That, Casey says, is what church is meant to be.
Keith then reflects on his own journey. He admits that he was distrustful. He had wounds. He had reasons to stay away. He was not ready to be judged. But after years of watching Casey, looking for holes, waiting for hypocrisy, and testing whether the friendship was real, Keith saw consistency.
He saw someone who lived what he believed.
He saw someone who loved people.
He saw a church that was not a courtroom, but a place for healing.
The episode also highlights the Wednesday morning men’s group that meets at Mattie’s Tavern, where Keith, Casey, and others gather for conversation, Scripture, honesty, and friendship. Keith describes watching men’s lives genuinely change through those conversations, not in a performative way, but in a deep and undeniable way.
Mattie’s Tavern:
https://aubergeresorts.com/matteis-tavern/
The Inn at Mattei’s Tavern:
https://aubergeresorts.com/matteis-tavern/
Valley Christian Fellowship YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/@valleychristianfellowship
Keith and Casey close the episode by returning to one of the simplest and hardest commands in Christianity: love one another.
Keith reflects on what the Santa Ynez Valley could become if people loved their neighbors, looked out for other people’s children, cared for older women like they care for their own mothers, helped one another, and lived as if community actually mattered.
The conversation ends with an Easter invitation, but the invitation is broader than one holiday. It is an invitation to walk through the door. To ask questions. To admit pain. To find a church. To stop confusing God with the failures of people. To begin again.
This episode is about faith, but it is not religious performance.
It is about doubt, but it is not cynicism.
It is about church, but it is not institutional marketing.
It is about relationship.
The relationship between friends.
The relationship between a hurting person and a patient pastor.
The relationship between questions and faith.
The relationship between a broken world and a God who does not come to condemn it, but to save it.
Listen to Episode 41:
https://saarloosandsons.com/sscopod
Saarloos & Sons:
Valley Christian Fellowship:
Casey Groves and Valley Christian Fellowship Team:
https://www.vcfconnect.org/meet-our-team
Valley Christian Fellowship Teachings:
https://www.vcfconnect.org/teachings
Valley Christian Fellowship YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/@valleychristianfellowship
Valley Christian Fellowship Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/ValleyChristianFellowshipSYV/
Good Seed Coffee Boutique:
https://goodseedcoffeeboutique.com/
Good Seed Coffee Solvang Ordering Page:
https://goodseedcoffee.square.site/
Mattie’s Tavern:
https://aubergeresorts.com/matteis-tavern/
The Inn at Mattei’s Tavern:
https://aubergeresorts.com/matteis-tavern/
Santa Ynez Valley Presbyterian Church:
Francis Chan:
https://crazychurch.com/
Ephesians 2:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%202&version=NIV
John 3:16-17:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%203%3A16-17&version=NIV
Matthew 5, Sermon on the Mount:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205&version=NIV
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Topics Covered
Casey Groves
Pastor Casey Groves
Valley Christian Fellowship
Santa Ynez Valley Christian Fellowship
Valley Christian Fellowship Santa Ynez
Santa Ynez Valley churches
Faith and doubt
Church hurt
Why people avoid church
Easter episode
Good Friday
Easter Sunday
Christmas and Easter Christians
CEO Christian
Friendship before faith
Relationship before religion
Coffee conversations
Good Seed Coffee
Solvang coffee shop
Keith Saarloos
Chopping It Up with Keith Saarloos
Santa Ynez Valley podcast
Faith podcast
Christian podcast
Local church podcast
People Behind the Pulpit
Pastor friendship
Trust and faith
Skepticism about church
Grief and faith
Losing a father
Spiritual pain
Spiritual wounds
Healing from church hurt
Church as hospital
Church as courtroom
Spiritual poverty
Blessed are the poor in spirit
Sermon on the Mount
Jesus and questions
Jesus and parables
Jesus as storyteller
Real Jesus vs imaginary Jesus
Asking better questions
Questions over answers
John 3:16
John 3:17
For God so loved the world
God did not send his Son to condemn the world
Ephesians 2
But God
Dead in trespasses and sins
Grace and mercy
Salvation by grace
Christian faith
Christian relationship
Faith in a comfortable world
Technology and spiritual hunger
DoorDash and modern comfort
Social media and loneliness
Political faith
Financial security
Insulation from need
Spiritual emptiness
Silent suffering
Pastoral calling
Vocational ministry
From Iowa to California
Rural Iowa
Death metal and faith
Guitar and ministry
Audio engineering school
Francis Chan
Bible school
Divine providence
Moving to California
Simi Valley
Youth conference
Bible study
Gospel conversations
Spiritual transformation
Men’s group
Wednesday morning men’s group
Mattie’s Tavern men’s group
Love one another
Love your neighbor
Santa Ynez Valley community
Local churches
Easter invitation
Presbyterian Church Santa Ynez Valley
Valley Christian Fellowship Easter
Church in Santa Ynez
Church in Solvang
Christian community
Church and hypocrisy
Pastors and authenticity
Real conversations about God
Honest faith conversations
Questions about God
Relationship with Jesus
Christian discipleship
Healing and grace
Faith after grief
Faith after skepticism
Faith and friendship
Spiritual formation
Bible teaching
Biblical teaching
Santa Ynez Valley Christian Academy
Local faith community
Crazy Country 105.9
Independent radio
Local radio
Chopping It Up Episode 41
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Frequently Asked Questions
Who is Casey Groves?
Casey Groves is the Senior Pastor of Valley Christian Fellowship in the Santa Ynez Valley. He is a pastor, Bible teacher, musician, husband, father, and friend of Keith Saarloos.
Valley Christian Fellowship team page:
https://www.vcfconnect.org/meet-our-team
What is Valley Christian Fellowship?
Valley Christian Fellowship is a Christian church in the Santa Ynez Valley. The church gathers for worship, biblical teaching, fellowship, discipleship, service, and missions.
Valley Christian Fellowship:
Where does Valley Christian Fellowship meet?
Valley Christian Fellowship meets at Santa Ynez Valley Christian Academy, located at 891 N. Refugio Road, Santa Ynez, California.
Valley Christian Fellowship:
What is Episode 41 of Chopping It Up about?
Episode 41 is a conversation between Keith Saarloos and Casey Groves about faith, doubt, friendship, church hurt, Easter, Jesus, spiritual questions, and why church is meant to be a hospital rather than a courtroom.
Why did Keith Saarloos want Casey Groves on Chopping It Up?
Keith wanted Casey on the show because he wanted listeners to know the person behind the pulpit. Keith and Casey had built a real friendship over years of coffee and conversation before Keith ever attended Casey’s church.
How did Keith Saarloos and Casey Groves meet?
Keith and Casey met at Good Seed Coffee in Solvang after Casey noticed Keith’s 1971 Pinzgauer. Their shared interest in off-road vehicles started a conversation that eventually became a long friendship.
Good Seed Coffee Boutique:
https://goodseedcoffeeboutique.com/
What is Good Seed Coffee?
Good Seed Coffee Boutique is a coffee shop and roastery in Solvang, California. In this episode, Good Seed is where Keith Saarloos and Casey Groves first met and where their friendship began.
Good Seed Coffee Boutique:
https://goodseedcoffeeboutique.com/
Why was Keith Saarloos skeptical of pastors?
Keith explains that he had experienced church hurt and distrust. He was grieving the loss of his father and was not ready for a pastor to bring his pain into the open. Over time, friendship with Casey helped rebuild trust.
What does “CEO Christian” mean?
In the episode, Keith uses “CEO Christian” to mean “Christmas and Easter Only.” It describes someone who attends church mainly on major holidays rather than as part of a regular rhythm of faith.
What is “The People Behind the Pulpit”?
“The People Behind the Pulpit” is the idea Keith introduces in this episode: conversations with pastors as real people, not just voices behind a church podium. The goal is to understand the person before the title.
What is Casey Groves’s background?
Casey Groves grew up in a small town in rural Iowa. He taught himself guitar, loved metal and death metal, planned to study audio engineering, and unexpectedly moved to California after feeling called to attend Bible school.
Did Casey Groves always want to be a pastor?
No. Casey originally planned to work in music and audio engineering. He expected faith to remain part of his life but did not plan on full-time vocational ministry.
What changed Casey Groves’s life?
Casey describes studying Ephesians 2 and being struck by the phrase “but God.” He realized that salvation was not about his own effort but about God’s mercy and grace making spiritually dead people alive in Christ.
Ephesians 2:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%202&version=NIV
What does Ephesians 2 mean?
Ephesians 2 teaches that human beings are spiritually dead in sin but that God, because of His mercy and love, makes people alive in Christ by grace. In this episode, Casey explains how that passage transformed his understanding of faith.
Why do people stay away from church?
Keith and Casey discuss several reasons people stay away from church, including hurt, hypocrisy, distrust, fear of judgment, bad experiences with religious leaders, and the perception that church is a courtroom rather than a hospital.
What does Casey Groves mean when he says church is a hospital, not a courtroom?
Casey explains that many people think church is a place where they will be judged and condemned. But when church is healthy, it is a place where spiritually wounded and unhealthy people come to receive truth, grace, healing, and community.
Is church only for people who have it all together?
No. One of the main messages of the episode is that church is not for perfect people. It is for people who are hurting, searching, struggling, healing, growing, and learning how to follow Jesus.
What does “blessed are the poor in spirit” mean?
“Blessed are the poor in spirit” comes from Jesus’s Sermon on the Mount. Casey explains that it means recognizing spiritual poverty — the truth that people cannot fill or save themselves apart from God.
Matthew 5:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205&version=NIV
Why does Casey Groves talk about questions more than answers?
Casey explains that Jesus often responded to questions by asking deeper questions. Good spiritual conversations often begin not with preaching, but with listening, understanding, and asking the right questions.
What does Casey mean by the “real Jesus” versus the “imaginary Jesus”?
Casey says many people carry a version of Jesus shaped by stereotypes, bad experiences, or cultural assumptions. His goal as a pastor is to help people meet the real Jesus revealed in Scripture.
What is John 3:16?
John 3:16 is one of the most famous verses in the Bible. It says that God loved the world so much that He gave His only Son, so that whoever believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.
John 3:16-17:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%203%3A16-17&version=NIV
Why does John 3:17 matter?
John 3:17 says God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him. Keith and Casey discuss this verse as central to understanding Jesus’s mission.
What does this episode say about faith in a comfortable world?
Keith and Casey discuss how modern comfort, technology, convenience, money, and distraction can make people feel like they do not need God. But beneath that comfort, many people still carry pain, loneliness, fear, and spiritual hunger.
What does the episode say about church hurt?
The episode acknowledges that many people have been hurt by churches or pastors. Casey and Keith distinguish between God and the failures of people, while also taking seriously the pain that bad religious experiences can cause.
What is the Wednesday morning men’s group?
Keith and Casey talk about a Wednesday morning men’s group that meets at Mattie’s Tavern. It is a place for honest conversation, Scripture, friendship, and spiritual growth.
Mattie’s Tavern:
https://aubergeresorts.com/matteis-tavern/
What is the main message of this episode?
The main message is that faith is not about pretending to have everything together. It is about relationship, honesty, healing, questions, grace, and learning to love one another as Christ loved us.
Is this episode only for Christians?
No. This episode is especially valuable for people who are skeptical, hurt, unsure, curious, or distant from church. It is a conversation for anyone wrestling with faith, doubt, pain, or the possibility of walking through the door again.
Why is this episode important for Easter?
This episode was recorded around Easter and points listeners toward the meaning behind the holiday: God’s love, Christ’s death and resurrection, forgiveness, healing, and the invitation to begin again.
What churches are mentioned in the episode?
The episode mentions Valley Christian Fellowship, Santa Ynez Valley Presbyterian Church, Coastlands, The Ranch Church, and other churches in the Santa Ynez Valley.
Valley Christian Fellowship:
Santa Ynez Valley Presbyterian Church:
Where can I watch or hear Casey Groves teach?
You can find Valley Christian Fellowship teachings and sermons here:
https://www.vcfconnect.org/teachings
Valley Christian Fellowship YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/@valleychristianfellowship
Where can I listen to Episode 41 with Casey Groves?
You can listen to Episode 41 of Chopping It Up with Keith Saarloos here:
PASTE SPOTIFY EPISODE LINK HERE
Where can I find more Chopping It Up episodes?
You can find more episodes of Chopping It Up with Keith Saarloos here:
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Casey Groves, Pastor Casey Groves, Valley Christian Fellowship, Santa Ynez Valley Christian Fellowship, Valley Christian Fellowship Santa Ynez, Santa Ynez Valley churches, church in Santa Ynez, church in Solvang, Easter church Santa Ynez Valley, Good Seed Coffee, Good Seed Coffee Solvang, Keith Saarloos, Chopping It Up with Keith Saarloos, faith and doubt, church hurt, why people avoid church, church as hospital not courtroom, Christian faith podcast, faith podcast, Easter podcast, Christian podcast California, Santa Ynez Valley podcast, Jesus and questions, Ephesians 2, John 3:16, John 3:17, Sermon on the Mount, blessed are the poor in spirit, relationship before religion, friendship before faith, pastors and authenticity, rural Iowa pastor, death metal pastor, guitar and ministry, Francis Chan, Bible school California, real Jesus, imaginary Jesus, spiritual healing, spiritual poverty, Christian community, Mattie’s Tavern men’s group, Santa Ynez Valley men’s group, love one another, church hurt recovery, faith after grief, faith after doubt, Valley Christian Fellowship teachings, Valley Christian Fellowship YouTube, Crazy Country 105.9, independent radio, Chopping It Up Episode 41.
Episode 40: Josh, I Am Riding Places, Motorcycles, Risk, Freedom, and What If It Goes Right?
In Episode 40 of Chopping It Up with Keith Saarloos, Keith sits down with his friend Josh, the motorcycle traveler, photographer, filmmaker, and creator behind I Am Riding Places, for a conversation about Harley-Davidsons, solo travel, risk, freedom, creativity, small-town America, and the kind of life you have to go chase.
This episode is about motorcycles.
But it is also about courage.
Keith and Josh talk about leaving a successful chapter, betting on yourself, buying a 25-year-old Harley-Davidson sight unseen in Florida, and riding it more than 3,000 miles back to California.
The conversation explores what the open road teaches you, why fear kills more dreams than failure ever will, how motorcycles strip life back to the basics, and why the better question is not always “what if it goes wrong?”
Sometimes the better question is:
What if it goes right?
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n Episode 40 of Chopping It Up with Keith Saarloos, Keith sits down with Josh, better known online as I Am Riding Places, for a conversation about motorcycles, freedom, risk, creativity, entrepreneurship, friendship, and what happens when a person stops waiting for permission and starts building a life of his own.
I Am Riding Places Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/imridingplaces/I Am Riding Places YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/@imridingplacesCR8CO:
https://cr8co.com/The episode begins with Keith introducing Josh as a cowboy in the best sense of the word. Not necessarily because of a horse, a hat, or a saddle, but because of the way he moves through the world: independent, willing to take risk, curious, unafraid of distance, and drawn toward the open road.
Josh explains that for the better part of a decade, he worked an incredible career riding Harley-Davidson motorcycles across the country and documenting small-town America, family legacy, independent businesses, and the people who make the backroads of this country worth seeing.
That chapter was connected to Two Lane Life, where Josh spent years traveling, filming, photographing, creating, and helping tell stories from the road.
Two Lane Life:
https://www.twolanelife.com/Two Lane Life YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/@TwoLaneLifeHarley-Davidson:
https://www.harley-davidson.com/After about six years, Josh realized it was time for a new chapter. He was 29 years old. No kids. No mortgage. No excuses. He knew that if there was ever a season to take a risk, this was it.
So he stepped away from the safe thing.
He gave his friends notice.
He made sure they were set up.
He left well.And then, three days later, he flew from Los Angeles to Tampa, Florida.
From there, he took an Uber to St. Petersburg, bought a 25-year-old Harley-Davidson from Facebook Marketplace sight unseen, and rode it solo all the way back to Ventura County, California.
More than 3,000 miles.
On an old bike.
Still not registered.
Across the country.
Alone.
Facebook Marketplace:
https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/Tampa, Florida:
https://www.visittampabay.com/St. Petersburg, Florida:
https://www.visitstpeteclearwater.com/Ventura County, California:
https://visitventuraca.com/Keith and Josh pause on that moment because it captures the whole spirit of the episode. There is something deeply American about buying the bike, taking the leap, and riding into the unknown. Keith says that whether someone wears a cowboy hat or not, there is a little cowboy in every American.
The road calls.
The unknown calls.
The part of you that wants to know what you are made of calls.
Josh says the ride from Florida to California was one of the best experiences of his life.
The conversation then turns to what motorcycles teach you.
Keith talks about how every motorcycle trip should change you. If you come home the same person, the trip failed. A motorcycle does not just move your body through space. It puts you inside the weather. Inside the wind. Inside the heat. Inside your own head.
On a motorcycle, your brain has one job first: keep you alive.
Then it starts doing the second job.
It starts untangling the knot.
The worries.
The fear.
The ego.
The excuses.
The overthinking.
The imaginary monsters.
The things you were carrying that maybe you did not need to carry anymore.Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen_and_the_Art_of_Motorcycle_MaintenanceJosh agrees and talks about what the end of one chapter taught him. He was 23 years old when he first stepped into that world. He had a business degree because he did not know what else he wanted to do. He picked up a camera almost by accident. Then two friends gave him a shot and asked him to help build a YouTube channel.
He did not fully know what he was doing.
But he figured it out.
That decision changed his life.
Photography became a tool.
Motorcycles became a way of seeing the country.
The road became a classroom.Josh says the biggest lessons from those years were culture, family legacy, human connection, and the importance of sitting down with someone, looking them in the eye, and learning where they came from and why.
And also:
Buy a motorcycle.
Keith asks Josh what 29-year-old Josh would tell 23-year-old Josh.
Josh’s answer is simple:
Do it again.
Put your head down.
Work hard.
Treat something like it is your own, even if it is not.
Shake hands.
Let yourself be guided.
Let your ego fall out the window.That leads Keith into one of the strongest ideas of the episode: there are really two versions of yourself you have to make proud.
The eight-year-old version of you.
And the eighty-year-old version of you.
The eight-year-old version still remembers what made you feel alive before the world got complicated. The eighty-year-old version knows what mattered and what did not. Keith tells Josh that 50-year-old Josh will be proud of 29-year-old Josh, and also proud of 23-year-old Josh, because he made choices that honored both who he was and who he was becoming.
Josh says there have been countless times between 23 and 29 when he realized his eight-year-old self would be absolutely stoked.
He grew up in a non-motorcycle household. The rule was basically: if you buy a motorcycle, you better find a place to live. But as a kid, he loved mini bikes and pocket bikes. He would sneak off to ride them. Somewhere inside him, that desire never left.
The decision to buy a motorcycle became one of the best decisions of his life.
The decision to choose a creative path became another.
At first, his parents did not fully understand either one. But over time, they saw that he was doing something that resonated with who he really was.
Keith connects Josh’s life to Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance and the idea that caring for a machine, taking a trip, and facing the road can teach a person how to care for his own life.
Then the episode moves into the road stories.
Josh explains that from Tampa to Los Angeles, the trip took exactly 14 days. Aside from a few days at home, he had been gone almost three weeks. The trip was not just about distance. It was about taking time. Visiting friends. Continuing conversations. Smelling the roses. Learning the difference between traveling for work and traveling because the road itself has something to teach you.
Keith says that if you want to hate the country, watch it on television.
If you want to love the country, ride across it on a motorcycle.
That idea sits at the heart of the episode.
Motorcycle travel puts you face-to-face with the country. Not the headlines. Not the noise. Not the outrage machine. The actual country. Gas stations. Backroads. Diners. Heat. Wind. Small towns. Strangers. Friends. People who help. People who wave. People who tell stories.
Small-town America is different when you meet it at eye level.
Josh says one of the biggest lessons of the trip was to underthink it.
Not to be reckless.
Not to be stupid.
Not to ignore real danger.But to stop worshiping imaginary danger.
He says most of the things running through your head will not be changed by thinking about them more. Prepare as best you can. Surround yourself with good people. Ride a good machine. Eat good food. Drink good wine. Carry what you need.
Then go.
If something happens and it is not life-threatening, you will learn a lesson that no paragraph, podcast, or advice column could ever teach you.
Keith and Josh talk about analysis paralysis and how people can think so long about launching something, announcing something, building something, or beginning something that it never actually happens.
The trip itself was a leap.
Flying across the country alone.
Buying a motorcycle from a stranger.
Riding 3,000 miles home.
No perfect plan.
No guarantee.
No full certainty.Just a decision.
Keith calls it a leap of faith.
He says most people live very safe lives. Safe cars. Safe neighborhoods. Predictable schedules. Trash pickup on Thursday. Street sweeping on Friday. Restaurants where the food is probably safe. Phones that can call help from almost anywhere.
But if people do not have an element of danger in their lives, they often invent one.
They manufacture fear.
They manufacture the boogeyman.
They manufacture the monster around the corner.Keith admits that he does this too. When everything is going right, he starts looking for the thing that is going to go wrong. But looking back over 50 years of life, he says he would not change much. The failures taught him. The hard things shaped him. The dangers that actually arrived were handled when they arrived.
The problem was all the time wasted fearing things that never came.
Josh says the mindset shift is simple:
What can go right?
Instead of only asking what can go wrong.
Then he adds another phrase:
Why not me?
But he explains that the same words can carry two completely different meanings.
“Why not me?” can be victim language. It can mean looking at someone else’s life and complaining that you do not have it.
Or it can be ownership language. It can mean looking at someone doing what you want to do and realizing that maybe they do not have anything magical that you do not have.
Maybe they just started.
Maybe they just tried.
Maybe they had half the money, half the resources, and twice the courage.Keith connects that idea to taking risks, betting on yourself, and swinging for the fence. He says failure has never killed as many dreams as fear has. A lot of people never fail because they never get off the bench.
The conversation then moves into the practical and brutal realities of the road.
Keith asks Josh about the hardest part of the cross-country ride.
Josh answers with one word:
Texas.
Texas was the soul crusher.
Wind.
Heat.
Construction.
Rough roads.
A lighter motorcycle.
No wind protection.
A cooked motor mount.
Long stretches.
Real miles.Texas Tourism:
https://www.traveltexas.com/Keith and Josh talk about the difference between modern touring motorcycles and older bikes. New motorcycles can have cruise control, Bluetooth, screens, comfort, and technology that would have seemed impossible decades ago.
But Josh’s old Harley was different.
Its “cruise control” was basically a screw under the throttle. Tighten it enough, and the throttle stays where it is. Keith jokes that it is like putting a zip tie on a chainsaw.
Josh tells a story about trying to use it once so he could remove sun sleeves while riding. A Range Rover got too close behind him, he throttled away, then realized the screw-down throttle was still holding speed and nothing was slowing him down.
He turned it off and never touched it again.
The episode then turns to the way motorcycles make you part of the elements.
Keith explains that on a motorcycle, you can tell what state you are in by feeling it. The heat, the cold, the wind, the rain, the smell, the road surface, the landscape. You are not sealed off in a climate-controlled bubble with the air conditioning set to 72 degrees.
You are in it.
You are part of it.
You are stripped down to the basics.
Keith asks Josh what he carries on a motorcycle trip when he is limited to saddlebags.
Josh’s essentials are simple:
Snacks.
Water.
Tire patch kit.
Portable air pump.
Tool roll.
Straps.
A camera.
A good person if possible.
Maybe spare fuel depending on the bike.The snack part matters because being broken down in the middle of Texas is bad.
Being broken down, thirsty, hungry, and hours from help is worse.
Keith and Josh also talk about Arizona heat, Phoenix, sunburn, and what happens when you choose a three-quarter helmet instead of a full-face helmet because you do not want people calling you through the intercom. Josh wanted to be in the moment, so he went old-school.
Arizona Tourism:
https://www.visitarizona.com/Phoenix, Arizona:
https://www.visitphoenix.com/Keith jokes that Phoenix is a testament to man’s arrogance.
Josh says he spent time with lifelong friends there, cooled off, went swimming, used sunscreen, and recovered from the sunburn before continuing home.
But he was not in a rush.
That matters.
The trip was not about escaping the road.
It was about experiencing it.
From there, Keith reflects on the importance of Josh documenting the whole thing. He talks about seeing Josh online, riding across unknown states, singing at the top of his lungs, living fully in the moment, and leaving behind proof that he was really there.
Keith says this is not just for Josh’s eight-year-old self.
It is for his eighty-year-old self.
It is also for his future family, future children, future friends, and future strangers who may one day look back and say, “What was he like in 2026?”
Josh will be able to show them.
He picked up a camera so he could remember experiences in both good times and bad. He kept holding the camera because other people were inspired by what he shared.
That is one of the most important creative lessons in the episode.
The internet can be a mess.
But it can also be a place where someone sees another person living with courage and decides to go do something with their own life.
Maybe they do not ride across the country.
Maybe they just ride the motorcycle to work.
Maybe they pick up the camera.
Maybe they start the business.
Maybe they take the first step.
Maybe they get a little bit freer than they were yesterday.
Keith closes the episode by giving Josh room to talk about his work. Josh shares I Am Riding Places on Instagram and YouTube, where he documents motorcycle travel, photography, writing, creative lessons, and experiences from the road.
He also talks about CR8CO, his new creative project born from the necessity to create. Through CR8CO, Josh plans to share writing, photography, apparel, camera gear, and creative work for people who want to start their own journey.
CR8CO:
https://cr8co.com/Keith points out that this kind of career did not really exist 10 years ago in the same way. Today, a person can follow a passion, learn the craft, ask questions, build an audience, document the journey, and create a life around the things that make them come alive.
Keith ends with a line from Jacques Cousteau:
If you have an exceptional life, you have no right to keep it to yourself.
Jacques Cousteau:
https://www.cousteau.org/That is what this episode is really about.
Not motorcycles only.
Not Instagram only.
Not travel only.
Not risk for the sake of risk.
It is about living an exceptional life and sharing it in a way that invites other people to go live theirs.
It is about buying the bike.
Taking the trip.
Trusting the road.
Shaking hands.
Letting the ego fall out the window.
Making the eight-year-old you proud.
Making the eighty-year-old you proud.
And realizing that the boogeyman is usually smaller than you made him out to be.This episode is about motorcycles.
But really, it is about freedom.
Listen to Episode 40:
PASTE SPOTIFY EPISODE LINK HERE
Chopping It Up Podcast Archive:
https://saarloosandsons.com/sscopodSaarloos & Sons:
https://saarloosandsons.com/Related Links and Resources
Listen to Episode 40 on Spotify:
PASTE SPOTIFY EPISODE LINK HEREChopping It Up Podcast Archive:
https://saarloosandsons.com/sscopodSaarloos & Sons:
https://saarloosandsons.com/I Am Riding Places Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/imridingplaces/I Am Riding Places YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/@imridingplacesCR8CO:
https://cr8co.com/Two Lane Life:
https://www.twolanelife.com/Two Lane Life YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/@TwoLaneLifeHarley-Davidson:
https://www.harley-davidson.com/Facebook Marketplace:
https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/Tampa Bay:
https://www.visittampabay.com/St. Petersburg / Clearwater:
https://www.visitstpeteclearwater.com/Ventura County:
https://visitventuraca.com/Texas Tourism:
https://www.traveltexas.com/Arizona Tourism:
https://www.visitarizona.com/Phoenix, Arizona:
https://www.visitphoenix.com/Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen_and_the_Art_of_Motorcycle_MaintenanceJacques Cousteau:
https://www.cousteau.org/ -
Topics Covered
Josh
Josh Seiden
I Am Riding Places
IM Riding Places
imridingplaces
I Am Riding Places Instagram
I Am Riding Places YouTube
CR8CO
CR8CO.com
Chopping It Up Episode 40
Chopping It Up with Keith Saarloos
Keith Saarloos
Saarloos and Sons
Saarloos & Sons
Santa Ynez Valley podcast
Los Olivos podcast
Crazy Country 105.9
Motorcycle podcast
Harley-Davidson podcast
Harley-Davidson travel
Harley-Davidson road trip
Harley-Davidson culture
Motorcycle travel
Solo motorcycle travel
Cross-country motorcycle trip
Florida to California motorcycle trip
Tampa to California motorcycle ride
St. Petersburg Florida motorcycle
Ventura County motorcycle
California motorcycle creator
Buying a motorcycle sight unseen
Facebook Marketplace motorcycle
25-year-old Harley-Davidson
Old Harley-Davidson
Motorcycle adventure
Adventure motorcycle travel
American road trip
Two-lane roads
Two Lane Life
Leaving Two Lane Life
Small-town America
Americana
Documenting America
Family legacy
Small business stories
Independent business
Backroads of America
Open road
Freedom
Risk
Courage
Betting on yourself
Creative entrepreneurship
Creator economy
YouTube creator
Instagram creator
Motorcycle filmmaker
Motorcycle photographer
Travel photography
Motorcycle photography
Filmmaking
Content creation
Documenting your life
Creative career
Camera gear
Writing
Storytelling
Building your own path
Leaving the nest
Starting over
Taking the leap
Leap of faith
What if it goes right
What if it goes wrong
Why not me
Fear kills dreams
Failure and fear
Analysis paralysis
Underthink it
Stop overthinking
Personal growth
Finding yourself
Road lessons
Life lessons from motorcycles
Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
Motorcycle essentials
Motorcycle packing list
Motorcycle saddlebags
Motorcycle tool roll
Tire patch kit
Portable air pump
Motorcycle snacks
Motorcycle road safety
Texas motorcycle ride
Texas wind motorcycle
Arizona motorcycle heat
Phoenix motorcycle trip
Sunburn motorcycle ride
Three-quarter helmet
Old-school motorcycle riding
Screw-down throttle
Motorcycle cruise control
Road Glide
Harley touring bikes
Motorcycle culture
Motorcycle freedom
American freedom
Cowboy spirit
Modern cowboy
Eight-year-old self
Eighty-year-old self
Make yourself proud
Living an exceptional life
Jacques Cousteau quote
Exceptional life
Real people doing real things
Ask people how
Creative inspiration
Go do the thing
Take the trip
Buy the bike
Trust the road
Coming home changed -
Who is Josh from I Am Riding Places?
Josh, also known as I Am Riding Places, is a motorcycle traveler, photographer, filmmaker, writer, and creative entrepreneur who documents Harley-Davidson travel, small-town America, open-road experiences, and life on two wheels.
I Am Riding Places Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/imridingplaces/What is I Am Riding Places?
I Am Riding Places is Josh’s creative platform where he shares motorcycle travel, photography, filmmaking, writing, road stories, creative lessons, and open-road experiences.
I Am Riding Places YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/@imridingplacesWhat is Episode 40 of Chopping It Up about?
Episode 40 is a conversation between Keith Saarloos and Josh from I Am Riding Places about motorcycles, risk, freedom, solo travel, Harley-Davidsons, creativity, entrepreneurship, and the question “what if it goes right?”
What motorcycle trip does Josh talk about in this episode?
Josh talks about flying from Los Angeles to Tampa, Florida, buying a 25-year-old Harley-Davidson sight unseen from Facebook Marketplace, and riding it more than 3,000 miles back to Ventura County, California.
How far did Josh ride from Florida to California?
Josh says he rode 3,018 miles from early in day one to his home in Ventura County, California. In the conversation, the trip is described as more than 3,000 miles across the country.
Where did Josh buy the motorcycle?
Josh bought the motorcycle in St. Petersburg, Florida, after flying into Tampa and taking an Uber to meet the seller.
What kind of motorcycle did Josh buy?
Josh bought a 25-year-old Harley-Davidson motorcycle sight unseen from Facebook Marketplace.
Why did Josh leave his previous career chapter?
Josh explains that after years of riding motorcycles, documenting small-town America, and working with friends who became family, he felt it was time to take ownership of his own life and build something of his own.
What is Two Lane Life?
Two Lane Life is a motorcycle travel and lifestyle platform focused on Harley-Davidson riding, road trips, backroads, small towns, and motorcycle culture.
Two Lane Life:
https://www.twolanelife.com/Was Josh part of Two Lane Life?
Yes. In the episode, Josh talks about spending years working with the Two Lane Life team, riding Harley-Davidsons around the country, filming, photographing, and helping document small-town America and family legacy.
What does “leave the nest” mean in this episode?
“Leaving the nest” means stepping away from a successful and comfortable chapter in order to build something new. For Josh, it meant leaving a good thing well and taking responsibility for his own creative path.
What does Keith Saarloos mean by “there is a little cowboy in every American”?
Keith uses the phrase to describe the independent, risk-taking, freedom-seeking part of people that wants to face the unknown, explore the country, and find out what life can become beyond the safe road.
What does “what if it goes right?” mean?
“What if it goes right?” is one of the main ideas of the episode. Instead of only asking what could go wrong, Josh and Keith talk about asking what could go right if you take the leap, trust yourself, and start moving.
Why does Josh say to “underthink it”?
Josh says “underthink it” because overthinking can become analysis paralysis. His point is not to be careless, but to prepare well, stop manufacturing fear, and go do the thing before fear talks you out of it.
What is analysis paralysis?
Analysis paralysis is when someone thinks, plans, worries, and evaluates for so long that they never actually take action. Keith and Josh discuss how overthinking can prevent people from launching projects, taking trips, or changing their lives.
What does this episode say about fear?
The episode says fear often kills more dreams than failure. Keith and Josh talk about how people manufacture imaginary danger, build up the boogeyman in their minds, and avoid risks that might actually change their lives for the better.
What does Josh mean by “why not me?”
Josh explains that “why not me?” can be said with a victim mindset or with an ownership mindset. It can either mean complaining that someone else has the life you want, or realizing that you may have the ability to build that life too.
What does Keith mean by the eight-year-old you and the eighty-year-old you?
Keith says there are two versions of yourself you should try to make proud: the eight-year-old version who remembers what made you feel alive, and the eighty-year-old version who will look back and know whether you lived honestly and courageously.
Why are motorcycles important in this episode?
Motorcycles are important because they represent freedom, risk, presence, and direct contact with the world. Keith and Josh talk about how riding a motorcycle strips life down to basics and forces you to be present.
What does the open road teach Josh?
The open road teaches Josh patience, connection, humility, courage, presence, and the importance of slowing down enough to meet people, visit friends, and experience the country beyond the freeway.
Why does Keith say if you want to love the country, ride across it on a motorcycle?
Keith says watching the country on television can make a person angry or disconnected, but riding across it on a motorcycle puts you face-to-face with real people, real towns, real weather, and real America.
What did Josh learn from documenting small-town America?
Josh learned the importance of culture, family legacy, small business, human connection, and taking the time to sit with people, look them in the eye, and understand where they come from.
What is CR8CO?
CR8CO is Josh’s creative project focused on writing, photography, apparel, camera gear, creative work, and helping people begin their own creative journeys.
CR8CO:
https://cr8co.com/What does Josh share through CR8CO?
Josh plans to share writing, photography, apparel, camera gear, creative resources, and lessons from his own life as a motorcycle traveler, photographer, filmmaker, and creator.
What does Josh carry on a motorcycle trip?
Josh mentions snacks, water, a tire patch kit, portable air pump, tool roll, straps, a camera, and possibly spare fuel depending on the motorcycle.
Why are snacks and water important on a motorcycle trip?
Josh says snacks and water matter because if you break down in the middle of nowhere, especially somewhere like Texas, being hungry and thirsty makes a hard situation worse.
What was the hardest state on Josh’s ride?
Josh says Texas was the hardest and most intense part of the ride. He describes it as scary, rewarding, and enjoyable, with rough roads, construction, wind, heat, and long stretches.
Why was Texas difficult on the motorcycle?
Texas was difficult because of the wind, construction, rough roads, long distances, and the fact that Josh was riding an older motorcycle with no wind protection and mechanical limitations.
What happened with Josh’s screw-down throttle?
Josh’s old Harley had a screw-style throttle lock. He used it once while trying to remove sun sleeves, but after accelerating away from a Range Rover, he realized the throttle lock was still holding speed. He turned it off and never used it again.
What happened to Josh in Arizona?
Josh says the weather was good until Arizona. By then he was sunburned from riding with a three-quarter helmet and no face protection. He stopped near Phoenix to spend time with lifelong friends, cool off, swim, and recover.
Why did Josh wear a three-quarter helmet?
Josh wore a three-quarter helmet because his full-face helmet had an intercom, and he did not want calls coming in. He wanted to be fully present on the ride.
Why does Keith mention Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance?
Keith mentions Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance because the book connects motorcycles, travel, maintenance, philosophy, self-examination, and the way a journey can teach a person about life.
Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen_and_the_Art_of_Motorcycle_MaintenanceWhat does this episode say about documenting your life?
The episode says documenting your life matters because photos, videos, and writing become proof that you lived. They also inspire other people to go live more fully.
Why does Josh carry a camera?
Josh carries a camera to remember experiences, preserve moments, tell stories, and inspire other people through the life he is living.
What does Keith mean by “if you have an exceptional life, you have no right to keep it to yourself”?
Keith uses that Jacques Cousteau idea to say that when someone lives a meaningful, adventurous, inspiring life, sharing it can encourage other people to live more courageously too.
Jacques Cousteau:
https://www.cousteau.org/Is Episode 40 only for motorcycle riders?
No. This episode is for motorcycle riders, but it is also for anyone thinking about taking a risk, starting over, building something creative, leaving a safe chapter, or doing the thing they have been afraid to do.
Is this episode about Harley-Davidson motorcycles?
Yes, Harley-Davidson motorcycles are a major part of the episode, but the deeper conversation is about freedom, risk, creativity, courage, and personal growth.
Where can I find Josh online?
You can find Josh at I Am Riding Places on Instagram and YouTube, and through his creative project CR8CO.
I Am Riding Places Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/imridingplaces/I Am Riding Places YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/@imridingplacesCR8CO:
https://cr8co.com/Where can I listen to Episode 40 with Josh?
You can listen to Episode 40 of Chopping It Up with Keith Saarloos here:
PASTE SPOTIFY EPISODE LINK HERE
Where can I find more Chopping It Up episodes?
You can find more episodes of Chopping It Up with Keith Saarloos here:
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